SIDE 3 preorder

[cwc]

2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

The take-away here appears to be that it DOES fit; you just have to push hard. Can't confirm one way or another yet. I have four 1200XLs but no cased SIDE3 as yet.

 

Stock (unfiled) SIDE3 fits in my 1200XL (stock, unfiled, cartridge tunnel) with a small bit of gentle persuasion (but nothing that causes me concern).

[MaPa]

6 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I know how to read the caliper, and clearly you were wrong - see the photo of the machine rule above. 

Of course not.. your photo shows width about 68.4 mm on the caliper and that's it. I just pointed it out.. I don't know what you measured, if you placed some salami slices on the other side of cartridge to make it bigger or what..

[+DrVenkman]

3 hours ago, MaPa said:

Of course not.. your photo shows width about 68.4 mm on the caliper and that's it. I just pointed it out.. I don't know what you measured, if you placed some salami slices on the other side of cartridge to make it bigger or what..

Sure, that’s what I did. Welcome to my Ignore list.

 

I apologize. I was incorrect. Though no salamis were involved in either measurement.  

Edited October 8, 2020 by DrVenkman

[toddtmw]

7 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I know how to read the caliper, and clearly you were wrong - see the photo of the machine rule above. 

 

The bottom line is, the SIDE3 shell - like the SIDE2 before it - is too wide to fit easily through the 1200XL cartridge tunnel and, at least in the case of my usual 1200XL, the 90-degree angle cartridge connector guide. 

 

 

Out of curiosity, what does your calipers look like when it is closed? Because based on the picture you sent, it appears to not be correct compared to the picture with the ruler. 

[pseudografx]

The Vernier caliper MaPa refers to shows 68.4 mm.

[tmp]

Just now, pseudografx said:

The Vernier caliper MaPa refers to shows 68.4 mm.

welcome to his ignore list

[toddtmw]

Just now, tmp said:

welcome to his ignore list

Welcome to the jungle. 
Welcome to my nightmare. 

[flashjazzcat]

21 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Um, no. Someone doesn’t know how to read an analog caliper.  

Well, I'll freely admit I was reading your analog caliper wrongly. But you said that this photo showed that the SIDE3 shell is 65mm wide:

On reflection, however, if you close the calipers, does the '0' mark on the sliding scale not line up with the '0' mark directly above it?

 

Oops - this thread is moving too fast. That escalated quicky (although it's hard to say for sure by how many millimetres).

Edited October 8, 2020 by flashjazzcat

[leech]

I guess the answer is the same as so many other things in life.  If it don't fit, Lube it.

https://www.amazon.com/LubeLife-Personal-Lubricant-Lube-Parabens/dp/B07FMLNVFF/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&fap=1&keywords=lubelife+water+based+personal+lubricant+275+gallon&qid=1602184984&s=hpc&sprefix=lubelife&sr=1-1#

[fenrock]

If it helps any, my own Side3 is 5.6 beard fortnights (there's a bit of parallax in this photo)

 

 

 

[pseudografx]

More like 5.2

[Mr Robot]

That would make it almost exactly 16 Picas or just slightly over 37½ Agates

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Well, I'll freely admit I was reading your analog caliper wrongly. But you said that this photo showed that the SIDE3 shell is 65mm wide:

On reflection, however, if you close the calipers, does the '0' mark on the sliding scale not line up with the '0' mark directly above it?

 

Oops - this thread is moving too fast. That escalated quicky (although it's hard to say for sure by how many millimetres).

Your avatar scares me.  I'll warn you now.  Be VERY careful with the pointy bits when measuring your salami.  That's all I am gonna say about that.  Regarding the tight tunnel, I guess some of us are used to having to push really hard when inserting.

[+DrVenkman]

Upon reflection and after a very long work day is now over, I realize I was incorrect in the caliper measurements - I owe @MaPa an apology. I am sorry.

 

*****

 

However, more to the original point and regardless of the absolute value of any particular measurements, there is one thing a mechanical caliper excels at, and that is using it as a gauge for physical comparisons. The fact is, when measuring the internal diameter of the 90 degree cartridge port guide from this particular 1200XL, then transferring the equivalent external measurement to the SIDE3 shell, that width on this machine is ever so slightly too small - still perhaps half a millimeter on either side. The difference is small enough that with some firm effort it will fit without damage to either port or cartridge shell. 

 

Now here's where things get interesting (or confusingly inconsistent, if you'd rather). I tested the SIDE3 fit in my other two 1200XL's. One of the units fits very well - even with no modification to the cartridge tunnel, it can be inserted and removed with less force than my daily-driver 1200XL.  By contrast, my third 1200XL will not admit the SIDE3 cartridge through the tunnel without substantial force, so much so that I didn't insert it completely for fear of "popping" the sides of the cartridge apart; after all the two halves are only secured by a single center screw. I have not disassembled the other two machines to look at the cartridge port guides affixed to the PCB. 

 

P.S. No salamis were sliced, diced or consumed in the making of this post. 

[Mr Robot]

So what you're saying is that all three cart tunnels are different sizes? If you hadn't sanded your ugly duckling 1200 would it be the same size as the smaller of the other two?

 

Looks like we need to add something to the 1200 serial number thread; Max cart girth!

 

 

[+DrVenkman]

6 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

So what you're saying is that all three cart tunnels are different sizes? If you hadn't sanded your ugly duckling 1200 would it be the same size as the smaller of the other two?

 

Looks like we need to add something to the 1200 serial number thread; Max cart girth!

 

 

I know you're joking but in all seriousness, yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. One of the two cart tunnels I haven't modified at all fits the SIDE3 better than the one that I have, while the other is much worse - it is probably more or less like the first before I modified it. But we already know that there are at least a couple different variants of cartridge connectors on 1200XLs anyway - the more common type uses 90 degree pins, the other uses a folded white ribbon connector of sorts. So far as I know, all of mine are the more common type, but without taking them apart again, I can't confirm that. So it should be unsurprising that some cart guides are different from one another, even setting aside variations in the tunnel itself.

 

 

[Mr Robot]

The only bit of my post that was a joke was the word "Girth" tbh, I was pretty serious about the rest. It seems incredible that they would pay to have the injection moulds for the cart tunnel made and not have them the same size. I guess it has something to do with how manual everything was back then, we didn't have robots making everything to to within a a couple of mils like we do now.

 

@MaPa congratulations btw. I've had some of my jokes crash and burn on here but I've never had people make new avatars because of it! Well done!

[+DrVenkman]

32 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

It seems incredible that they would pay to have the injection moulds for the cart tunnel made and not have them the same size.

Manufacturing tolerances are a bitch. There's also 37 years worth of aging plastics to consider too. And who knows if Atari had the same company manufacture all the molds and plastic work for the XL's, or if they did, if a single plant made all the pieces. Then there's wear and tear on the molds. Production molds are only good for so many pieces before they have to be resurfaced or remade entirely, I gather. 

 

Anyway, if I don't have to work this weekend, I will open up my other two 1200XLs and see if I can get some details of their cartridge tunnels and cartridge guide pieces. 

[+Stephen]

I also have two 1200XLs I can photograph.  One was made in USA. the other I believe in Taiwan.  I have a SIDE2 cart so I can test with that.  SIDE3 will hopefully be incoming soon.

 

All my measuring equipment uses "freedom units"   I'll convert to metric for you.

[leech]

Rather odd with how short of a lifespan the 1200xl had, that it has so many variants.

 

I need to get my second one modded out with as many upgrades that I can fit, as I would like to use it as my main machine.

 

Edit:  look at how larger the SIDE 2/3 is over the Basic XE cart.  I didn't take the other 1200xl apart yet, but this one has the 90 degree pins, and it isn't just the top shell part that is too tight, but the cartridge 'shroud' itself.  The SIDE3 seems to maybe be a mm or 2 thinner than the SIDE2, but nit enough to fit inside the 1200xl.

 

Last picture... problem solved!

 

Additional note... I can no longer sit cross legged on the floor and take pictures of the insides of Ataris without suffering the consequences of attempting to stand again...

Edited October 9, 2020 by leech

[MaPa]

9 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

Upon reflection and after a very long work day is now over, I realize I was incorrect in the caliper measurements - I owe @MaPa an apology. I am sorry.

 

I aprecititate that you admit that you were wrong moreover publicly and thanks for the apology which I didn't needed or asked for.

(if you will read this at all because of putting me on ignore list  )

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by MaPa

[flashjazzcat]

9 hours ago, leech said:

The SIDE3 seems to maybe be a mm or 2 thinner than the SIDE2, but nit enough to fit inside the 1200xl.

From what I can gather, the SIDE3 casing is narrower at the 'stepped' section at the connector edge, but basically the same width as SIDE2 in all other respects. If this is the case, it's symptomatic of a cataclysmic communication problem, since I was advocating 1-2mm off the width over the entire length of the casing. When I have sanded a SIDE2 casing down by rubbing it along a sheet of sandpaper, I'm not narrowing the 'stepped' section at the end, since this doesn't even come into contact with the sandpaper. So reducing the width of said stepped section will accomplish nothing at all, as far as I can tell. This is what happens when one person provides data whose meaning is assumed to be clear, and said data disappears down a sink hole and emerges months later as a mass-produced item.

[TGB1718]

11 hours ago, leech said:

Additional note... I can no longer sit cross legged on the floor and take pictures of the insides of Ataris without suffering the consequences of attempting to stand again...

and I thought it was just me (creaking old joints)

 

[TGB1718]

11 hours ago, leech said:

Edit:  look at how larger the SIDE 2/3 is over the Basic XE cart. 

Just saw this and decided to measure mine

 

Atari Basic Cart:- 65.5 mm

SIDE2 Cart:- 66.7 mm

SIDE3 Cart:- 67.5 mm

 

So in theory when manufacturing modern Carts maybe the original Atari spec should be used

[flashjazzcat]

Just tried my 'The!Cart' with its nice new shell (66mm wide and very kindly sent by Peter Dell - thanks again Peter!) in a 1200XL, and I can't get that pushed home sufficiently that it works either. It seems to go in but then stops dead and the computer boots up with lines down the screen, indicating partial contact in the socket.

 

So it would appear that making a cartridge shell which fits the 1200XL - when it is a consideration at all - represents one of the greatest technical challenges known to mankind. The only things aside from original carts and AtariMax carts I have here which fit are Ultimate and UNO. AVG uses a similar sized shell to the SIDE carts and doesn't fit.