flashjazzcat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, DrVenkman said: If the guy who raised this concern would simply post whatever cartridge image he claims is a problem, then we’d all know the answer to that question. He won't, because he just views any issue as an opportunity to push buttons and advance whatever absurd ethical objections he has towards devices from a particular vendor. Vagueness when describing the issue and a reliance on ad-hominem retorts are hallmarks of people who have no real belief in their own arguments. I don't think 'Already fixed' is the answer he was hoping to hear. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGB1718 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 14 hours ago, Stephen said: To beat another dead horse - testing, testing, testing. Lack of testing will get you every time. Have to agree with you, most of my working life I seemed to be testing (hardware/software) and my last job was a Test Analyst. It used to amaze me every time I was given something to test that had "already been thoroughly tested" and the bugs came creeping out one by one The usual pitfall of most testing is they test to make sure it works given the correct inputs, not much thought about "what happens if I do THIS!!" Run it till it breaks, then you know what it can really do ? (maybe) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 3 hours ago, flashjazzcat said: How long does it take to write 'SW-XEGS Gauntlet CAR file doesn't work?' I would then have replied: 'Problem already fixed by FPGA update'. Two posts, situation resolved, and then I'd be spared the unhappiness caused by dealing with people who can't explain themselves using simple English words. Anyway: you're back on ignore now, so hopefully someone else has time to distil pertinent information from your posts going forward. Wait, there is a cart for Gauntlet? I want one! (If even the image.) I feel ashamed, as I still haven't played with the SIDE3, haven't had time and been waiting for you and Candle to fix any straggler bugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, TGB1718 said: It used to amaze me every time I was given something to test that had "already been thoroughly tested" and the bugs came creeping out one by one Absolutely so, and you'll get no argument from me since I was advocating for wide beta testing since the end of 2019. There appears to be some controversy regarding the definition of 'beta testing' in this case, but one can formulaically evaluate whether or not effective beta testing took place by counting the number of bugs which still exist in the released product. Bugs don't lie. Next time a project like this is tackled, I want a 2-3 month period of testing and tweaking after the hardware is already nailed down. Trying to get things polished while one person is saying 'take the time you need' and another is shouting 'there is no reason not to release now' is just a pain in the arse, and has completely screwed up my release timelines regarding U1MB updates, etc. Edited November 18, 2020 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said: Absolutely so, and you'll get no argument from me since I was advocating for wide beta testing since the end of 2019. There appears to be some controversy regarding the definition of 'beta testing' in this case, but one can formulaically evaluate whether or not effective beta testing took place by counting the number of bugs which still exist in the released product. Bugs don't lie. Next time a project like this is tackled, I want a 2-3 month period of testing and tweaking after the hardware is already nailed down. Trying to get things polished while one person is saying 'take the time you need' and another is shouting 'there is no reason not to release now' is just a pain in the arse, I'm personally disappointed with release of SIDE3 or should I say SIDEB and I'm holding off with ordering one until things get more polished. But many things will never be fixed. This hardware was sitting in someone's drawer for at least couple of years, doing nothing and suddenly got released in unchanged form. To me, it feels already outdated, it's 2020 and we have very nice cartridge shells that fit in all Atari computers or micro SD cards that are more popular and save space on PCB, this can't be fixed by software update. It seems like people who bought this, became a beta testers and currently are doing job that the creator should do before he decided to finally release his product to the public. Maybe this was acceptable 5 years ago, but today we have more choices when it comes to mass storage for our computers and we can demand more for the money we are paying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Interesting observations, but might I say that micro SD cards suck (easily lost, etc), and the notion that what you saw in post #1 was simply hauled out of the drawer and released without changes after a two year hiatus is dismissive and observably untrue. As for things getting 'more polished': field FPGA updates are possible without additional equipment, and this would hardly be the first device which was subject to firmware bug fixes and feature improvements ex-post (see the AVG thread for a prime example). The matter of testing rigour aside, a big deal has been made of an issue (SW-XEGS emulation bug) which was actually fixed long before the complainant piped up. All that is missing is a published update that owners whose carts still have the bug may download and apply. In any case, you're right in thinking that no firmware update will shrink the SD card connector down to microSD proportions; all I can suggest is an UNO Cart. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: ...but might I say that micro SD cards suck (easily lost, etc), My feelings exactly ? . For situations where space is at a premium, yes a micro SD makes sense. But from an ergonomic standpoint they do indeed suck. And yes because they are micro in size I've already lost a couple of them, never to be found again (I think the vacuum monster found them before me). So if a product allows enough space for the larger SD card, by all means that's what should get used. I'm sure that some will have a preference and justification for wanting micro SD cards instead. But as far as the SIDE3 is concerned, in my opinion there would be absolutely no good reason to do so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) What about the fact that it doesn't fit in many Atari computers? Yes, when I mentioned micro SD, I was thinking about limited space in cartridge shell. SIDE3 pcb looks already crowded. Edited November 18, 2020 by ZuluGula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, ZuluGula said: What about the fact that it doesn't fit in many Atari computers? Yes, when I mentioned micro SD, I was thinking about limited space in cartridge shell. SIDE3 pcb looks already crowded. Define many - I don't know of a single multi-cart (maybe Uno) that fits in the 400/800 because of the dumb door that they use. There's maybe a few hundred 1200XLs still in existence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) What about non ECI 65XE and XEGS? 400/800 and 1200XL seams to be very popular in USA. New shells from Sikor fit in any Atari. Edited November 18, 2020 by ZuluGula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, ZuluGula said: What about the fact that it doesn't fit in many Atari computers? The issue with 1200XLs might be put down to a 'communication error', but I might remind the reader that SIDE3 isn't the only popular multicart which doesn't fit in a 1200XL. I have several of them, and neither The!Cart nor AVG fits into the 1200XL, for example. The only other machine I can imagine having a problem is the 800, but - again - SIDE3 isn't the only popular multicart to use this particular shell. Whether SIDE3 uses a full sized SD card or a microSD card has no impact on the ergonomic considerations under discussion. The only FAT loader multicarts I have here which fit a 1200XL with the shell attached and without any filing or alterations are the UNO Cart, the Ultimate Cart and the MYIDE II, all of which are several years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 minute ago, ZuluGula said: What about non ECI 65XE and XEGS? Both perfectly usable with SIDE3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Side3 was released after better shell options became available. Other multicarts are older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Just now, ZuluGula said: Side3 was released after better shell options became available. I assume you've also levelled this criticism at the AVG cart, whose case is the same size as the one on the SIDE3, and also doesn't fit a 1200XL. 20 minutes ago, ZuluGula said: SIDE3 pcb looks already crowded. Is this a serious criticism? That there aren't large areas of unoccupied space on the PCB? Would you like us to remove some features; perhaps the SRAM or the real-time clock chip? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, ZuluGula said: Side3 was released after better shell options became available. Other multicarts are older. Seems pretty simple then - don't buy one. There's 5 or 6 other alternatives. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Or design and build something yourself ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 14 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: I assume you've also levelled this criticism at the AVG cart, whose case is the same size as the one on the SIDE3, and also doesn't fit a 1200XL. AVG cart was released before better shell became available. 5 minutes ago, Stephen said: Seems pretty simple then - don't buy one. There's 5 or 6 other alternatives. This is what I said in my first post here. I'm not buying it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, ZuluGula said: AVG cart was released before better shell became available. The SIDE3 was intended to fit the 1200XL using the shell in which it currently ships. The reason it doesn't is because shit happens. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 45 minutes ago, Stephen said: There's maybe a few hundred 1200XLs still in existence. The current Atariage serial number list stands at 472 unique 1200XL's. The 1200XL is an extremely popular model among enthusiasts. Giving that many enthusiasts are not involved with the forums here, I'd venture to guess there are at least twice that number of machines which haven't had their serial number submitted here. The other thing is, Bob1200XL has only submitted 7 serials numbers himself, and we all know he has several hundred stashed away at his place. Note: My statement about the number of 1200XL's is not meant to side (pun) with anyone here regarding the cartridge size discussions. Personally, I think it's perfectly understandable that some cartridges will not end up fitting in 1200XL's or 400's / 800's. I think most hardware developers do their best to accommodate as many machines as possible (as it's it their best interest to do so); but various factors may ultimately dictate that those tougher cases (pun) don't make the cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 46 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: I assume you've also levelled this criticism at the AVG cart, whose case is the same size as the one on the SIDE3, and also doesn't fit a 1200XL. To be fair, tmp has released a 3d printable shell for the AVG that does fit the 1200XL (but not the 400/800). Maybe, if the SIDEB uses the same case as the AVG, this 3d printed shell will work there too? Also as has previously been said when this topic assumes zombie status every week, if a flashcart is being used with a 400/800, it's pretty tricky to use the buttons on said cart. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, Mr Robot said: To be fair, tmp has released a 3d printable shell for the AVG that does fit the 1200XL (but not the 400/800). Maybe, if the SIDEB uses the same case as the AVG, this 3d printed shell will work there too? I was just thinking the same thing about 3D printed cases. Wasn't there a guy in Canada that was making nice custom shells for various A8 cartridge hardware? I think he made one specifically for the Ultimate cart. Maybe his skills could be summoned to craft something for the SIDE 3. 9 minutes ago, Mr Robot said: Also as has previously been said when this topic assumes zombie status every week, if a flashcart is being used with a 400/800, it's pretty tricky to use the buttons on said cart. Most people end up having to modify their machine so the door can stay open while running. These machines are notoriously a pain when it comes to working with such cartridge hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 11 minutes ago, MrFish said: Most people end up having to modify their machine so the door can stay open while running. These machines are notoriously a pain when it comes to working with such cartridge hardware. I think, with the lid open, tmps thinner case should also work in a 400/800 https://atariage.com/forums/topic/278212-avgcart/?do=findComment&comment=4539064 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, MrFish said: I was just thinking the same thing about 3D printed cases. Wasn't there a guy in Canada that was making nice custom shells for various A8 cartridge hardware? I think he made one specifically for the Ultimate cart. Maybe his skills could be summoned to craft something for the SIDE 3. Here's the guy I was referring too. He even makes a nice-looking 1200XL cartridge extender, which might be a nice solution for some people. COREi64 - Atari 3D Printed Cases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Sikor's offering is no use for any serious cartridge because of various features inside mostly big latch in the upper part of the case making usability very limited being psychically smaller the only way would be to have it heavly cnc machined before it would become usable and you would still need to use micro-sd card that i dislike i do not see any point in using micro-sd card if device is big enough durability of this connector type is already limited due the size of features it uses, and i need to keep in mind that this sd card will be removed and reinserted countless times during its use its not set and forget solution, or should i embed it internally and you would rather use sio to put new things on it? as for fit for 1200xl this was misunderstanding between what Jon communicated (making it narrower by 0.5mm) with what was done - making narrowed part narrower even more by that 0.5mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 So it's all Johns fault 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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