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Japan Vs. Rest of the World: Who has created the best games?

Japan Vs. Rest of the World: Who has created the best games?  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. Japan Vs. Rest of the World: Who has created the best games?

    • Japan
      24
    • The rest of the World
      13


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22 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

You obviously missed out on the X68000!

And the MSX!

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2 hours ago, CatPix said:

And the MSX!

The msx didn't make it to North America either and it was subpar to what we had here. 

 

 

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If you say the MSX is subpart, obviously you haven't been checking enough.

Metal Gear is subpar? Was there anything like Vampire Killer (Castlevania) on the C64 or Atari 8 bits or even the ST/AMiga? What about Psycho World? Or just aobut most fine ports of other games on it?

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10 hours ago, Badaboom said:

The msx didn't make it to North America either and it was subpar to what we had here. 

 

 

PC Gamer says it DID make it to North America and it has plenty of awesome games.

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-bright-life-of-the-msx-japans-underdog-pc/

 

Yes, it does say "barely at all" but "barely at all" still means it was available in North America somewhere.

 

Behold the CX5MII, released in North America: https://www.msx.org/wiki/Yamaha_CX5MII

 

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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Well, the TRS-80 CoCo series made it to Europe as well, but very few people will recognize that it ever was sold over here.

 

Hardware wise, the MSX1 is not that more advanced than a ColecoVision with AY sound expansion, RAM, keyboard and I/O. However since this thread is about the games, not the gaming hardware, we should look into which kind of games Japan offered in the era 1983-1986, that didn't make it to the Ataris, Commodores, Apples etc of the West.

 

The three games CatPix mention, namely Metal Gear, Psycho World and Vampire Killer unfortunately all require a MSX2 from 1986 and onwards, which represents machines with an upgraded 9939 VDP and 128K RAM. By then America was shifting into 16-bit, in particular the PC side, and even Europe was slowly moving into 16-bit such as Atari ST and Amiga (PC much later because it was so expensive). Of course you can compare MSX2 to the console side, where it has a bigger palette than NES, is on level with the SMS but behind the PC Engine, all three Japanese systems. Obviously both Metal Gear and Castlevania were ported to e.g. NES so for that matter even the Western world got a taste of those games even if it wasn't in the original MSX2 format.

 

Also I'm still not sure if anyone missed out on the X68000. Yes, it has great gaming specs but as I pointed out, cost as much as a mid or upper range office PC which for most customers would be way too much for a gaming computer. The way its graphics hardware is defined makes it perfect for tile based games but hopeless for a GUI desktop and business applications. Someone claimed a fully decked out X68000 cost like a small car. I think that is a slight exaggeration (depending on how old car you were looking at of course) but it didn't even reach the US market where otherwise more advanced & expensive systems were easier to sell; see e.g. the PC clones, which then could be used both for some gaming and more serious uses.

Edited by carlsson
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7 hours ago, CatPix said:

If you say the MSX is subpart, obviously you haven't been checking enough.

Metal Gear is subpar? Was there anything like Vampire Killer (Castlevania) on the C64 or Atari 8 bits or even the ST/AMiga? What about Psycho World? Or just aobut most fine ports of other games on it?

Castlevania and Metal Gear itself was on C64 though: 

 

http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=1304&d=18&h=0

 

http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=4753&d=18&h=0

 

 

Screenshot for Castlevania  Screenshot for Metal Gear

Edited by high voltage

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Both Castlevania and Metal Gear are considered to be rather meh on the C64, in particular for being released in 1990. But yes, the ports were official and commercial.

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3 hours ago, carlsson said:

The three games CatPix mention, namely Metal Gear, Psycho World and Vampire Killer unfortunately all require a MSX2 from 1986 and onwards, which represents machines with an upgraded 9939 VDP and 128K RAM.

I took more high profiles games, but most (all?) MSX fans consider those games to be MSX. If you wanna talk about the MSX1, then you mention the MSX1 ;)

 

In the same vein, when you say "Amiga games" I very rarely say people referring specifically to Amiga-500 games; and in fact if you go anywhere into an Amiga fanbase and ask what you need, people will usually say that you need at least 1 Mo of RAM or better, or even to directly go for an AGA machine like the 1200; yet, they are still "Amiga games".

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10 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

PC Gamer says it DID make it to North America and it has plenty of awesome games.

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-bright-life-of-the-msx-japans-underdog-pc/

 

Yes, it does say "barely at all" but "barely at all" still means it was available in North America somewhere.

 

Behold the CX5MII, released in North America: https://www.msx.org/wiki/Yamaha_CX5MII

 

Give it a rest. Released doesn't mean it sold enough to even be significant, hence why i said "made it". 

 

Compared to the big 4 in North America, nobody bought it.

 

The home computer market, software wise, was an european/north america thing. The japanese had the console market starting with the nes up to the xbox when north american and european studio made a comeback. Today it's a mix bag depending on the genre.

 

 

 

Edited by Badaboom

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On 8/10/2020 at 1:17 PM, Badaboom said:

The home computer market, software wise, was an european/north america thing. The japanese had the console market starting with the nes up to the xbox when north american and european studio made a comeback. Today it's a mix bag depending on the genre.

Where does that weird notion come from? In Japan, the gaming market was almost always dominated by computers.

 

You rarely see Japanese computer games for the simple reason that Western computers didn't really get a foothold on the Nippon archipelago until the 2000's, when NEC discontinued the PC-98 series.

Japan had their own computers which were, for the most part, not exported either, or in unsignificant numbers due to their high price, driven mostly by the need of high resolution and large ROM for displaying kanjis - this also explain why Western computers were never popular in Japan in the 8 bits era; try drawing a recognizeable kanji with a ZX Spectrum...

 

Notable Japanese computers include the NEC PC-8800 series, and the succeeding one that dominated the home and office market until the 2000's, the PC-98.

But there was also the MSX, the Sharp MZ series, the Fujitsu FM-7...

 

Most of those machines never saw export, or only a limited one ( the most successful being probably the MSX and to a lesser extent, the Sharp MZ-800 in Europe); also, publication of games on those platforms, unlike what happened for consoles, was entierely in the publisher's hands; if arcade games were easy to adapt for Western audiences (with many arcade games from Japan being written with english already, meaning that they didn't even had to change the game, unless the game title had been changed for export) the bulk of Japanese games were adventure and RPG games, requiring lenghty and costly translation work. Many Japanese editor didn't had and still don't have any Western presence, making it simply impossible for them to publish their games outside of Japan unless they partnered with a local editor or a fellow Japanese editor with a Western presence.

 

 

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On 7/28/2020 at 8:14 AM, Steven Pendleton said:

Grand Theft Auto 5? You know, the second-best selling video game ever made? It's British.

wow... they're up to gta 5 now huh?

 

Thats how "well known" that game is; dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just saying, I've been gaming daily since 1985, first "I" heard of it.

 

I'm just making the point that we have gamers of ALL types here. What makes it so great here at AA. but yeah... this question was loaded from the beginning...

Japan vs...  THE WORLD.

 

come on, that just TOO much competition!!!!!?

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6 hours ago, CatPix said:

Where does that weird notion come from? In Japan, the gaming market was almost always dominated by computers.

 

You rarely see Japanese computer games for the simple reason that Western computers didn't really get a foothold on the Nippon archipelago until the 2000's, when NEC discontinued the PC-98 series.

Japan had their own computers which were, for the most part, not exported either, or in unsignificant numbers due to their high price, driven mostly by the need of high resolution and large ROM for displaying kanjis - this also explain why Western computers were never popular in Japan in the 8 bits era; try drawing a recognizeable kanji with a ZX Spectrum...

 

Notable Japanese computers include the NEC PC-8800 series, and the succeeding one that dominated the home and office market until the 2000's, the PC-98.

But there was also the MSX, the Sharp MZ series, the Fujitsu FM-7...

 

Most of those machines never saw export, or only a limited one ( the most successful being probably the MSX and to a lesser extent, the Sharp MZ-800 in Europe); also, publication of games on those platforms, unlike what happened for consoles, was entierely in the publisher's hands; if arcade games were easy to adapt for Western audiences (with many arcade games from Japan being written with english already, meaning that they didn't even had to change the game, unless the game title had been changed for export) the bulk of Japanese games were adventure and RPG games, requiring lenghty and costly translation work. Many Japanese editor didn't had and still don't have any Western presence, making it simply impossible for them to publish their games outside of Japan unless they partnered with a local editor or a fellow Japanese editor with a Western presence.

 

 

Nothing you say here refutes my point. The computer gaming scene in america and europe was a usa/europe thing. None of those system you mentionned made it out of japan in any significant number. 

 

So when someone ask who made the best games, well it's hard to say it's the the one who made the games nobody played! Also when talking about the best games, which kind? The japanese lacks many genre that were popular here on home computers back in the days, like wargames, strategy, simulations... 

 

Sorry if I step on your nihongo dream of japanese domination of the gaming world.

 

 

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I voted for the rest of the world.

 

Here's where I stand on this.  I don't care where a game is from, but usually when I can tell it came from Japan, I don't like it as much.  If I were to list out my top games of all time it might look like this:

 

Pitfall!
Pirates!
The Legend of Zelda
Wing Commander
Tomb Raider
Resident Evil
Madden NFL 200x
God of War
Mass Effect 

Batman Arkham xyz

 

So, I think 2 of those are Japanese games, but none of them are from genres that Japan seems to specialize in.  I play everything, but my genre preference tends to lead me away from side-scrollers, 1v1 fighters, shmups, and jrpgs.  I kinda think that I've played enough games in those genres already, so anything I missed and didn't play because it wasn't good enough to be localized for me seems ok to just let go.  Besides genre, where Japanese games start to dip for me is in the story department which has become more important in the last 20 years.  Japan produces a lot of fiction and some of it like the critically acclaimed film "Shoplifters" is excellent.  However most of it seems very culturally distant and doesn't really ever hold my attention.

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2 hours ago, Badaboom said:

Nothing you say here refutes my point. The computer gaming scene in america and europe was a usa/europe thing. None of those system you mentionned made it out of japan in any significant number. 

 

So when someone ask who made the best games, well it's hard to say it's the the one who made the games nobody played! Also when talking about the best games, which kind? The japanese lacks many genre that were popular here on home computers back in the days, like wargames, strategy, simulations... 

 

Sorry if I step on your nihongo dream of japanese domination of the gaming world.

 

 

You're literally saying that the merits of each game don't matter, each game should be judged by regional genre variety, all that matters is worldwide sales, and that no one has played Japanese computer games.

 

You have proved that you aren't familar with Japanese computer gaming though, as popular genres included wargames, strategy and simulations. Which is why they also frequently appeared on Japanese consoles.

 

 

Here is how your agrument would play out on Jeopardy:

 

 

Edited by Black_Tiger
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4 hours ago, Torr said:

wow... they're up to gta 5 now huh?

 

Thats how "well known" that game is; dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just saying, I've been gaming daily since 1985, first "I" heard of it.

 

I'm just making the point that we have gamers of ALL types here. What makes it so great here at AA. but yeah... this question was loaded from the beginning...

Japan vs...  THE WORLD.

 

come on, that just TOO much competition!!!!!?

Apparently so. I've never played GTA and I know basically nothing about it other than occasionally seeing "GTA 5 breaks new sales records" in various places on the internet.

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11 hours ago, Black_Tiger said:

You're literally saying that the merits of each game don't matter, each game should be judged by regional genre variety, all that matters is worldwide sales, and that no one has played Japanese computer games.

 

You have proved that you aren't familar with Japanese computer gaming though, as popular genres included wargames, strategy and simulations. Which is why they also frequently appeared on Japanese consoles.

 

 

Here is how your agrument would play out on Jeopardy:

 

 

Oh look, another one...

 

i'm in reality saying that this poll is moronic and flamebait!

you can't determine who made the best games since, for the most part, nobody played those japanese games outside of japan back in the day. Cappish? And few european or north american games made it in Japan. 

 

Now in 2020 you can use emulators and give it a go, if you feel like it, but it won't invalidate what I've been saying. The best games are those that you ACTUALLY enjoyed playing back then, and on the home computer in North America and Europe, they were from North America and Europe.

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16 hours ago, Badaboom said:

Sorry if I step on your nihongo dream of japanese domination of the gaming world.

Where have you seen that I was implying that Japan was dominating the gaming world?

I'm just trying to refute your half-assed points that gaming computing didn't existed in Japan and that they started with the Famicom. That they are unknow machines in the West is not relevant.

That would be like me saying that the Atari 2600 was a half-assed machine with mediocre impact on the gaming market, because it's precisely what it did in Europe. A mediocre impact.

You would find this assertion unjustified, rightly so.

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Actually I think what Badaboom tried to say was that in America and Europe, the computer games market mostly was dominated by American and European games, whereas the console market from 1985 and onwards saw an influx of Japanese games. For someone who didn't live in Japan in the 80's, the library of Japanese computer games was mostly unknown and possibly deemed irrelevant as you already knew a big library of games where you understand the language and culture.

 

But yes, MSX in particular was fairly big in Europe, at least on the continent. In some circles almost as big as the Atari 8-bit, I'd be willing to claim. Sord/CGL M5 had some following in a few countries. The Sharp MZ-80, MZ-700, MZ-800 were written about in the press but I don't know how many owned one. The Fujitsu FM-7 may have existed in one or two places, same about the Sharp X1, NEC PC-6001, PC-6601 though all of those relatively were oddballs on the market. The NEC PC-88, PC-98 probably were not that interesting to import since they were non-IBM compatible X86 designs with not that much more amazing specs than what a regular PC clone could offer. I don't know what FM Towns could offer compared to a contemporary 386 PC, but it sure cost as much as one. Same of course goes to the fabled X68000, whether you consider it a computer or a games console with keyboard and floppy drive.

Edited by carlsson
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3 hours ago, carlsson said:

Actually I think what Badaboom tried to say was that in America and Europe, the computer games market mostly was dominated by American and European games, whereas the console market from 1985 and onwards saw an influx of Japanese games. For someone who didn't live in Japan in the 80's, the library of Japanese computer games was mostly unknown and possibly deemed irrelevant as you already knew a big library of games where you understand the language and culture.

 

But yes, MSX in particular was fairly big in Europe, at least on the continent. In some circles almost as big as the Atari 8-bit, I'd be willing to claim. Sord/CGL M5 had some following in a few countries. The Sharp MZ-80, MZ-700, MZ-800 were written about in the press but I don't know how many owned one. The Fujitsu FM-7 may have existed in one or two places, same about the Sharp X1, NEC PC-6001, PC-6601 though all of those relatively were oddballs on the market. The NEC PC-88, PC-98 probably were not that interesting to import since they were non-IBM compatible X86 designs with not that much more amazing specs than what a regular PC clone could offer. I don't know what FM Towns could offer compared to a contemporary 386 PC, but it sure cost as much as one. Same of course goes to the fabled X68000, whether you consider it a computer or a games console with keyboard and floppy drive.

Yes...but I also recall Sierra getting very excited about importing Thexder and Silpheed to North American computer gaming in '86. I was bitter about the fact that the A8 was not getting ports of these games, so I ignored them at the time. 

 

Okay, you did say "mostly " unknown. :)

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I was planning to go through the 250 most popular games (on Mobygames) for the PC-88 but I only bothered the first 69, from A to E. Out of those, about 50% of the games existed on Western computers (Apple II, C64, DOS etc). Some on NES but I don't know if those games were released in America and Europe anyway, some on MSX but as noted that never was a factor in America at least.

 

If that holds true, it would seem that perhaps half of the best NEC PC games were available on other formats. Possibly the selection is more exclusive with the PC-98.

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On August 12, 2020 at 11:32 AM, carlsson said:

Actually I think what Badaboom tried to say was that in America and Europe, the computer games market mostly was dominated by American and European games, whereas the console market from 1985 and onwards saw an influx of Japanese games. For someone who didn't live in Japan in the 80's, the library of Japanese computer games was mostly unknown and possibly deemed irrelevant as you already knew a big library of games where you understand the language and culture.

 

But yes, MSX in particular was fairly big in Europe, at least on the continent. In some circles almost as big as the Atari 8-bit, I'd be willing to claim. Sord/CGL M5 had some following in a few countries. The Sharp MZ-80, MZ-700, MZ-800 were written about in the press but I don't know how many owned one. The Fujitsu FM-7 may have existed in one or two places, same about the Sharp X1, NEC PC-6001, PC-6601 though all of those relatively were oddballs on the market. The NEC PC-88, PC-98 probably were not that interesting to import since they were non-IBM compatible X86 designs with not that much more amazing specs than what a regular PC clone could offer. I don't know what FM Towns could offer compared to a contemporary 386 PC, but it sure cost as much as one. Same of course goes to the fabled X68000, whether you consider it a computer or a games console with keyboard and floppy drive.

Exactly...

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In the world of computer gaming in North America you had the pre-PC gaming era which cover the usual suspect, apple, tandy, commodore and atari up and including the 16bit systems, and the PC era starting with the drop in price of 386dx based system with VGA. The game library was almost exclusivelly filled by NA/European titles up until the rise of the multimedia based PC and the release of the Playstation when titles like Final Fantasy VII got some PC releases via Japanese collaboration with NA/European studio like Eidos.

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