Which to buy: Side3 vs AVG Cart?

[+Larry]

Of course, some answers will be "get both," but seriously, many folks don't need two more multi-carts. So how do they compare?  It looks like from reading the threads and watching videos, as stand-alones, they both have the similar features. If you add the SIO mod, then the AVG will do a good job with ATR's.  If you have an U1MB, then the Side3 does more -- adding HDD + ATR's (at cart loading speed, I think?). (If ATRs do R/W at cart speed, then the concept of HDD vs ATR gets blurred.)  Maybe you already have a Side2 -- does that affect your decision?

 

Side3 is about twice the cost of the AVG Cart, but at least at the current time, the AVG Cart can't be shipped. Eventually, that will change.  But the Side3 is pre-order only, so both are currently "unobtainable."

 

As I see it, the Side3 has a lot of very nice features, but added by greatly increasing the complexity of usage with multiple menus and key strokes. Some folks won't mind that at all; some will.  (Aside -- think about the original intent of the Atari Home Computers -- easy to use, etc.  What have we done?  Yes, that's "progress" I guess.)

 

So what do you think?  Who will you likely "vote for" with your hard-earned dollars, GBP, Euros, etc.?  Both? -- they exist; therefore I must have them.  I am curious about what potential buyers think about this, and I didn't find another thread that addressed it.

 

 

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

10 minutes ago, Larry said:

As I see it, the Side3 has a lot of very nice features, but added by greatly increasing the complexity of usage with multiple menus and key strokes. Some folks won't mind that at all; some will.  (Aside -- think about the original intent of the Atari Home Computers -- easy to use, etc.  What have we done?  Yes, that's "progress" I guess.)

Why exactly do you get the impression that usage of SIDE3 suffers from 'greatly increased complexity'?

[Marius]

Well I would definitely go for SIDE3 without doubt. Had very good experiences with SIDE2. I also love the loader made by FJC. The UI is excellent.

[Marius]

18 minutes ago, Larry said:

As I see it, the Side3 has a lot of very nice features, but added by greatly increasing the complexity of usage with multiple menus and key strokes. Some folks won't mind that at all; some will.  (Aside -- think about the original intent of the Atari Home Computers -- easy to use, etc.  What have we done?  Yes, that's "progress" I guess.)

Did you ever use the FJC version of the SIDE loader? Never seen a more intuitive piece of code on a8. It is excellent and very easy to use. It fits the "It just works" ideology and next to that it is versatile, fast and extremely compatible.

 

It is 1000 times better than the original SIDE loader or any other Fat32 loader for other devices. It looks amazing and it handles directories with hundreds of files like it is nothing. The search feature is a killer feature as well.

 

I never read any doc or manual and the SIDE loader by FJC is powerful and easy to use from day 1. No hidden features, no weird key combinations... it is the best since the invention of sliced bread.

[bfollowell]

For me, it depends on what you want to do with it, and what machine you plan to use it on.

 

For me, I wanted the best compatibility with the most cartridge types and, from my research at the time that I bought my Ultimate Cart, the UC won. Also, I knew I planned to build a 1088XEL with the CF3 installed, so I really wouldn't need the HD emulation of the SIDE2, or the SIDE3.

 

If I'd been planning to use this with an original 8-bit, I probably would have sacrificed a few of the more obscure cartridge types for the sake of the HD emulation of the SIDE2 and would have purchased that. Also, for all I know, today, the SIDE2 and SIDE3 may be fully compatible with all the same cartridge types that the Ultimate Cart is compatible with. The firmware for these is being updated routinely and new features being added.

 

I'd initially planned to sell my old original 800XL when I got my 1088XEL going well. Now, I think I've decided to keep my old friend and add a UAV and U1MB to it. You can be sure that, if I do, I'll most likely be adding a SIDE3 to the setup as well.

 

[Mclaneinc]

I've never had a SIDE cart but the AVG just blows me away, it takes everything thrown at it and does it, its really simple to use and tmp is doing a great job, SIDE3 however is coming along very nicely and the interface is brilliant, currently its not supporting real SIO but its not even finished being coded so I have no idea if that is going to be added, only Jon etc knows. Currently AVG handles more file types but again its stuff that can and probably will be added to the SIDE3.

 

Jon's PBI method of loading ATR's seems to be very compatible if not totally compatible, again I don't know, over to jon on that..

 

It's a really hard choice, SIDE has a proven track record, where AVG is the new boy on the block as it were, its so hard to say which is better as they are both great carts. Will I get a SIDE3, not at the moment, I'm extremely happy with my wonderful AVG but who knows what the future will be for both, I see great things for both in my mind..

 

It's a tough call but the one minor down on the AVG is that it needs user modding to achieve the newer features 100%, the patched OS is great (another Jon special) but its has its issues..

[flashjazzcat]

9 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

currently its not supporting real SIO but its not even finished being coded so I have no idea if that is going to be added, only Jon etc knows

For this feature (and I think SIO support on the AVG is amazing added value), the cart needs to be 'intelligent', which is to say it needs to run a complete file system handler on the MCU. SIDE3 isn't like that, so it will not happen. On SIDE3 (as with SIDE2), the 6502 CPU does 99 per cent of the work, interfacing directly with hardware registers.

9 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

Jon's PBI method of loading ATR's seems to be very compatible if not totally compatible, again I don't know, over to jon on that

It should work with anything which does not attempt to directly drive serial IO by bypassing the operating system. There are some such ATRs and XEXs, of course, which have no hope of being loaded from a cartridge or PIO solution. AVG's direct SIO feature is undeniably the nuclear solution to this issue, although even at HSIO divisor 0, ATR read speeds are three or four times slower than on SIDE/U1MB.

 

SIDE3 - thanks to its 2MB of SRAM - at least offers similar stand-alone ATR support to that initially offered by AVG and UNO, etc.

Edited July 27, 2020 by flashjazzcat

[+Larry]

53 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Why exactly do you get the impression that usage of SIDE3 suffers from 'greatly increased complexity'?

Watching your videos and owning a SIDE2 + U1MB.  Not trying to offend you -- that's just how I see it.

[Mclaneinc]

Thank for the info Jon, didn't want to make claims that were false or misleading..

 

The only thing that puts me off the SIDE3 is simply cost, with the cost of UPS added its 90.00UK, its a personal issue, I think all these devices are worth their weight in gold and I hope they all sell loads but I simply had my mini spend and it's over...Really having to think about the Sophia 2, the money is there still but everyone wants a bit of it

[flashjazzcat]

14 minutes ago, Larry said:

Watching you videos and owning a SIDE2 + U1MB.  Not trying to offend you -- that's just how I see it.

I never imagined for a moment you were trying to be deliberately aggravating. I am simply asking for specific examples of what about general operation (or specific features) you consider to be complicated or lacking in user-friendliness. I have no idea what the baseline reference point for simplicity and ease of use is. If it's the AVG loader itself, I had to - for example - consult the (newly provided) manual after ten minutes of wondering why high speed SIO was not working by default with the latest firmware, to discover I must press SHIFT+CTRL+H to activate it in the loader menu. I have some difficulty understanding how using the cursor keys to move between eight menus of largely self-explanatory content is less user-friendly than learning a series of hotkeys. Or perhaps I completely misunderstand the point being made. The objective was certainly to balance complexity and ease of use (hence, one accesses the search facility in my loader by typing a string as directed in the status line), so if a user considers the UI intimidating or difficult to use, it would be helpful to know exactly why.

Edited July 27, 2020 by flashjazzcat

[candle]

from u1mb equipped machine user perspective, AVG's strongest feature is SIDE2 emulation - nothing else puts my intrest there

SIO contraption with some kind of cables running to another port feels Commodore biased, and I simply don't like it

sure, it has it advantages, if you're using stock machine, but then again, I don't find stock machine that usefull

I don't play the games, its either sdx or some development - for this I need either a link to a PC, or doing it nativly on Atari, so SIO feature of AVG cart is gone - it would be useless if I had to put that SD card back and forth in PC and AVG, and for developing anything nativly on Atari, I would die for some extra RAM

Anyways - if I was on a budged, and only games would spark my intrest, I would buy AVG, but in a long run, it might be I would have to buy yet another device

Other than this - I belive SIDE3 is better choice in long term, especially for any die-hard Atari user

 

[tmp]

11 minutes ago, candle said:

from u1mb equipped machine user perspective, AVG's strongest feature is SIDE2 emulation - nothing else puts my intrest there

SIO contraption with some kind of cables running to another port feels Commodore biased, and I simply don't like it

sure, it has it advantages, if you're using stock machine, but then again, I don't find stock machine that usefull

I don't play the games, its either sdx or some development - for this I need either a link to a PC, or doing it nativly on Atari, so SIO feature of AVG cart is gone - it would be useless if I had to put that SD card back and forth in PC and AVG, and for developing anything nativly on Atari, I would die for some extra RAM

Anyways - if I was on a budged, and only games would spark my intrest, I would buy AVG, but in a long run, it might be I would have to buy yet another device

Other than this - I belive SIDE3 is better choice in long term, especially for any die-hard Atari user

 

[Mclaneinc]

I actually think there is no problem here other than which one you get, both will do wonderful stuff, having a choice is just wonderful but hard to decide...

 

As for the Commodore biased thought, yes you can make a comparison to the 1541 Ultimate+ in the cabling ways but in most ways the carts are very different, I for one am extremely happy that a version of that was modified for my Atari, I have both so it's a welcome addition no matter how it works..

 

I'm mostly a gamer and a tinkerer, both the AVG and SIDE3 would be a welcome set..

[flashjazzcat]

Perhaps I can persuade Deborah to appear in a video trying out both cartridges as a complete novice.

 

[mimo]

I have an AVG cart with SIO "upgrade" and it will emulate Side 2, so for me this is more than enough. I'm sure the Side 3 will be awesome as are all Candles projects but I just can't justify the cost. I already have Sic! carts, Atarimax carts, SIO2PC, Sdrive-max etc etc that has sat idle since my AVG cart arrived 

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

Perhaps I can persuade Deborah to appear in a video trying out both cartridges as a complete novice.

Please make sure you make it so enough goes wrong to illicit some swearing

[+mytek]

32 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Please make sure you make it so enough goes wrong to illicit some swearing

Maybe have me do it, since I cuss all the time when working on stuff. Of course more so when I'm working on one of my designs and it fails to live up to expectations, and there are a few dents in the walls to prove it .

 

But seriously what I've seen in the demo videos Jon's posted of his work on the SIDE3 UI is incredible. The SIDE3 will make a most welcome addition to anyone's Atari hardware collection.

 

[Mr Robot]

SIDE 3 can't load ATR/ATX/CAS files via an SIO cable and doesn't have a second button on the top.

 

AVGCART can't load BAS files, doesn't have a front switch and doesn't have an RTC.

 

Other than that they both do the same things but with different UI's.

 

The SIDE 3 has twice the memory and is twice the price.

 

1MB is enough to load all existing carts, future development is required for the SIDE3 to use its extra memory for other things.

 

SIDE 3 also has 8MB of ROM. I've no idea what that's for yet!

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Mr Robot
Forgot to mention the 8MB ROM

[NISMOPC]

3 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

It's a tough call but the one minor down on the AVG is that it needs user modding to achieve the newer features 100%, the patched OS is great (another Jon special) but its has its issues..

I believe all new shipments of the AVG Cart already have (or will have) the connector soldered in place.

[+DrVenkman]

15 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

SIDE 3 can't load ATR/ATX/CAS files via an SIO cable

So is this where the FujiNet folks point out that some of this (ATR loading) is already available including loading from local and internet servers, and that ATX and CAS support (with audio) is on the roadmap? ? 

 

Yeah, I'm muddying the waters I know - I just ordered a SIDE3 and my FujiNet should be delivered today. I also have an SDrive-MAX for ATX and CAS files in the meantime. Options are good. 

 

So really, there isn't any single do everything cartridge at the moment, but each one does about 98% of what most users actually care about day to day. So pick your poison and just have fun.  

[Wrathchild]

Having experienced what can be done with an UNO Cart in terms of getting the STM32F4 micro to do stuff for you (Gameboy VRAM emulation / 3D world projection) I've still a lot of potential to exploit there but wonder if the SIDE3 can be extended in a similar way? AVG remains propriety AFAIK so I haven't gone down that path as I'm happy to run 8MB flash cart images on physical AtariMax carts and most else on the UNO.

[Mr Robot]

2 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

Having experienced what can be done with an UNO Cart in terms of getting the STM32F4 micro to do stuff for you (Gameboy VRAM emulation / 3D world projection) I've still a lot of potential to exploit there but wonder if the SIDE3 can be extended in a similar way? AVG remains propriety AFAIK so I haven't gone down that path as I'm happy to run 8MB flash cart images on physical AtariMax carts and most else on the UNO.

I think UNO and Ultimate are the only Open Carts

[flashjazzcat]

25 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

1MB is enough to load all existing carts, future development is required for the SIDE3 to use its extra memory for other things.

How do you know the rest of the 2MB of SRAM on SIDE3 isn't already used for other things?

5 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

I've still a lot of potential to exploit there but wonder if the SIDE3 can be extended in a similar way?

SIDE3 has DMA capabilities which allow for rather fast data transfer and RAM to RAM copies. Candle and I prefer to make the 6502 do as much of the work as possible, but the SRAM can surely be leveraged in some interesting ways. In-field FPGA updates are possible, so there is plenty of scope for future development too.

[Mr Robot]

5 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

So is this where the FujiNet folks point out that some of this (ATR loading) is already available including loading from local and internet servers, and that ATX and CAS support (with audio) is on the roadmap? ? 

Eventually Fujinet will do all the "SIO" things. Both SIDE3 and AVGCART can do all the "Cart" things.

 

If there is any competition, it's over all the "Other" things, and those are both in active development and currently almost on Par. Also UI Preference, Speed, Simplicity etc. All the fit and finish of a final product

 

 

[Mr Robot]

1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said:

How do you know the rest of the 2MB of SRAM on SIDE3 isn't already used for other things?

I don't, you haven't said you need it for anything you have shown on video so far and everything you have shown on video so far is doable on the AVG without it so I'm making an edumacated guess