Which to buy: Side3 vs AVG Cart?

[a8isa1]

4 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Very interesting, as I only get that screen with the 512KB RAM expansion plugged-in in Slot-2 (as designed). But I do not get that, with stock RAM config. (or, at least, with 32KB of ram, in the form of 2x16 KB ram cards)

 

I will try again, and verify that reset is working correctly. I can only see a proper OS-provided E: screen, after boot, if I press-and-hold the left-most button of the AVG cart, during boot time.

 

THX!

I don't want stay off topic for long but a whole new thread would seem out of context just for this question.

 

Does Axlon upgrade only require 2 16K RAM boards be in the system to get the full 48K base memory?

 

I had always thought 16K + 32K boards were required.  would have deterred me from buying axlon in the early '80s.   I can blame only procrastination from then on.

[Faicuai]

4 minutes ago, a8isa1 said:

Does Axlon upgrade only require 2 16K RAM boards be in the system to get the full 48K base memory?

THIS board, yes, and normally they do (you need x1 16KB on slot 1, and x1 16KB on slot 3).

 

However, it could perfectly handle [x1 16KB + 512KB] on slot 2, and free slot 3 for Bit3 or any other on-bus peripheral expansion, etc. Examples of boards that do just that (but up to 32KB) are INTEC, Axlon RAMCRAM, and others. (I happen to have these two, as well).

 

But this particular expansion was not designed with such provision in mind.

[Faicuai]

@tmp

@a8isa1

 

Alrighty!

 

Some important news here (special thanks to a8isa1):

 

1. Whether the AXLON-compatible 512KB board is plugged, or whether the 800 runs with ONLY 3x16KB stock 48KB RAM config., the AVG cart menu / selector FAILS to boot or appear. It shows the image I originally showed on my first post: 
   • 
2. Pressing the warm-start (RESET) button, brings the cart's menu in, in any of the above configurations (stock or AXLON-expanded).
3. It seems as if the cart was brought into $A000-$BFFF space *AFTER* the OS boot-manager ran its full course, by setting up Antic's display-list, opening E: session and attempting SIO boot (which can be clearly heard).
4. The issue can be replicated as follows:
   • Land in Atari Memo Pad screen, with AVG off-line.
   • Press AVG's left-most button (screen above immediately appears). Keyboard input continues to work normally.
   • Press console RESET button, and AVG's menu appears correctly.
   • SURPRISE!!! It turns out that AVG's SDX and internal HD work PERFECTLY afterwards, leveraging the presence of the AXLON-512KB expansion. This is where the AVG carts certainly walks head-and-shoulders ahead of my SIDE2 cart, as its HD-function is rendered inoperable due to RAS-time signal presence in lieu of PHi2 (on 800's left-cart port).
5. NOTES:
   • The above anomaly DOES NOT happen with AVG plugged in the 800/Incognito unit.
   • The above anomaly DOES NOT happen with AVG plugged in stock 800, equipped with 32KB only (2x16KB in Slots 1 and 2).
   • AVG cart should be booting up correctly, even on stock 800/48KB, WITHOUT the need for another warm start.
   • There is definitely a bus-logic / timing  problem with the cart, during boot time, on a stock 48KB-equipped 800.

If any further assistance is required to either test or track down this problem, let me know. 

[tmp]

normally i'd say it could be the time avgcart needs to initialize (this was already addressed in the past when i learnt there was such issue with either QMEG or Atari 400 (OSA) being way quicker to initialize than the other OS') but since you're saying that less memory works and more doesn't, it's probably something else (more memory should take more time to clear)

it could be related to that special way s4/s5 works in 800 but it's still weird that nobody complained about it before (ok a8isa apparently did)

 

i'll have a look at it

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, tmp said:

less memory works and more doesn't, it's probably something else

Either the cart was OFF-LINE during OS HW init section and/or OS boot-manager's CART control (init and run) OR, on the other hand, the cart was already on-line in $A000-$BFFF prior to OS HW init, but for some bizarre reason it went off-line during OS HW-init's ram-sizing, thus never found by OS boot-manager (!!) It's got to be one of the two.

 

What it is absolutely certain is that E: buffer and Antic DL are being setup in $BCXX-$BFFF range, just to be later squashed by AVG coming on-line and claiming $A000-$BFFF address space (without being initialized / ran from OS boot-manager). The effect can be perfectly reproduced as I described above, which confirms what is happening.

[tmp]

i've checked osb source and it kinda makes sense, it checks very early (and quickly) where the ram ends (before the cart is ready), then does the heavier stuff (hw init, mem clearing) and although the cart becomes ready before it actually checks for its presence, it doesn't bother doing so if ram was detected there at the beginning, that's why 32kB and 48kB behaves differently

[Level42]

Received my SIDE3 a few days ago. JFC asked me to do some pre-release testing of the latest U1MB firmware and SIDE3 loader which was fun to do and it looks like everything works fine (although I haven't tested everything yet)...so far: amazing cart. Finally I can simply copy games to SD and run them right away on my 600XL.....

Edited June 5, 2021 by Level42

[Mazzspeed]

21 minutes ago, Level42 said:

Received my SIDE3 a few days ago. JFC asked me to do some pre-release testing of the latest U1MB firmware and SIDE3 loader which was fun to do and it looks like everything works fine (although I haven't tested everything yet)...so far: amazing cart. Finally I can simply copy games to SD and run them right away on my 600XL.....

SIDE3 with U1MB and FJC's firmware is awesome, I love mine.

 

[Back2skooldaze]

@JAZZCAT Perhaps I can persuade Deborah to appear in a video trying out both cartridges as a complete novice. 

 

I'd like to see that too !!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[flashjazzcat]

8 minutes ago, Back2skooldaze said:

@JAZZCAT Perhaps I can persuade Deborah to appear in a video trying out both cartridges as a complete novice. 

It has been suggested - by me - but primarily as a cynical means of increasing viewing figures, and not necessarily because of engaging technical content.

 

I imagine she would find the experience of launching a cartridge or XEX from the built-in loader more or less identical on the two devices, though. AVG in 'SIDE compatibility' mode would present you with the exact same limitations with regard to hard disk preparation on a 48K machine, unless you propose to exploit AVG's SIO connector and abandon the idea of high-speed HDD partitions entirely.

 

[Back2skooldaze]

yes well the idea of the SIO connector does appeal to me very much

Jazz after reading over that spartados x manual it does state sdx can be run on a stock atari and what id like to know is ive downloaded the sdx and tried loading on the sd drive max but its not loading? I did have a spartados that i transferred to floppy and that loaded but i was on the 130xe and that all loaded up fine with the ram and the clock setting etc... but not sure what i did or were that disk is at the moment so can you link me a spartados for me to download so i can play around with it with a 1050 drive forget the side3 for the moment i just want to play around with the spartados and a 1050 drive just to use the formatter etc.... let me dip my toes in the spartados before the  U1MB arrives much appreciated.

[flashjazzcat]

SpartaDOS X is ROM-based and bult into the SIDE3. You're really going to have to sit back and read the forums and documentation here, I'm afraid, since you have many misconceptions about what SDX is and how it works. I don't mean that as a criticism or the suggestion that this is a 'conduct' issue, but I cannot teach you SpartaDOS X today. Take your time, experiment, read... it's fun, but bear in mind that SpartaDOS X is 'the most advanced DOS for any 8-bit computer'.

[xxl]

1 hour ago, Back2skooldaze said:

Perhaps I can persuade Deborah to appear in a video trying out both cartridges as a complete novice.

This is good initiative showing that this is not just a male world, many women are interested in the Atari topic and a test showing what equipment is best for a woman will help them find it easier.

[Faicuai]

On 5/28/2021 at 2:20 AM, tmp said:

it checks very early (and quickly) where the ram ends (before the cart is ready)

How's that going?

 

Any unexpected challenges while addressing this?

 

[Mazzspeed]

34 minutes ago, xxl said:

This is good initiative showing that this is not just a male world, many women are interested in the Atari topic and a test showing what equipment is best for a woman will help them find it easier.

I agree with this.

 

I know that under other platforms there's a number of female developers that are actually quite talented, it would be good to encourage them to branch out to the A8.

[flashjazzcat]

Rearrange the letters in AVG cart's name and you have an advertising method which writes itself.

[Mazzspeed]

1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said:

Rearrange the letters in AVG cart's name and you have an advertising method which writes itself.

Jon...

 

We're meant to be encouraging Women to AA...

[flashjazzcat]

I don't think there are any barriers to entry other than the presence of unreconstructed men.  I'm intrigued by the idea, but on the face of it, surely a woman can use the exact same device as a man in the exact same way (so we are told), unless we imply that there is some innate behavioural impediment preventing women from participating or mastering the functionality of a given device.

[Mazzspeed]

2 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

I don't think there are any barriers to entry other than the presence of unreconstructed men.  I'm intrigued by the idea, but on the face of it, surely a woman can use the exact same device as a man in the exact same way (so we are told), unless we imply that there is some innate behavioural impediment preventing women from participating or mastering the functionality of a given device.

Totally.

 

It's like Linux, everyone states it's so hard to use (bearing in mind these people are supposed to be computing enthusiasts), but modern Linux is really no harder than MacOS to use, as the use of terminal is very much necessary under MacOS once you get past the basics. What's interesting is that while enthusiasts complain, my Wife and 12yo Daughter get on my PC and use it just fine. Sure, they can't use terminal - But considering their usage case they don't need to, and the average user can install software quickly and easily via the GUI.

 

The Backbit cart on the C64 was designed and built entirely by a Woman, and it's loading speeds are bloody impressive.