My 130XE video is gross (Super Video 2.0 vs UAV)

[monzamess]

Hello experts, 

 

I have a 130XE with the Super Video 2.0 mod, at least I'm pretty sure. I bought it with the mod already performed, and comparing the mod instructions to what's actually on the motherboard, it appears the mod was performed properly.

 

I also just obtained a 600XL with a UAV installed and didn't realize what I was missing. 

 

I tried both computers connected to a Dell 2001FP LCD monitor using an S-video cable from 8bitclassics.com. 

 

The 130XE image has vertical bars consistently across the screen, and low-ish contrast.

Side note: On a Sony Trinitron (also S-video), the bars go away but the image is still pretty soft/low-contrast.

Side question: Is this what the UAV manual is talking about when it states "Video power and ground are often shared with very noisy components like DRAM and this causes vertical bars to appear in the picture" ?

 

The 600XL image in comparison is gorgeous with no bars and better contrast and sharpness.

 

I've attached pictures of both.

 

EDIT: These are US / NTSC models. 

 

Are there any simple mods I can do to the 130XE video to further clean it up? Or do I just need to get UAV for it as well? (assuming I don't want to delve into the world of RGB/VGA/etc).

 

Thanks!

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by monzamess

[FifthPlayer]

I have a 130XE and it also has the vertical bar issue on modern TVs.  I've tried a few scan converters but they don't help and it costs too much money to keep buying different models to try out.  I only want one Atari in the house, and if I were to do it over again I would go with a 600XL or 800XL.

[+DrVenkman]

1 hour ago, monzamess said:

Side question: Is this what the UAV manual is talking about when it states "Video power and ground are often shared with very noisy components like DRAM and this causes vertical bars to appear in the picture" ?

Yes, and some models are much worse about it than others. Unfortunately, the issue is often noise in the Atari's own ground plane, which is almost impossible to remove. In my experience, the 130XE is afflicted with this the worse, with the 1200XL not too terribly far behind. Even with a UAV, you may get some of the same faint jailbars, depending on the minor variations in component tolerance, age, any noise in the power supply itself, etc. And as you've already determined, the type and quality of your display and even the cable used can affect the apparent visibility of the effect.

 

It's sad, but the cleanest "Atari" computer video I've seen with my own eyes are the UAV outputs from my 1088XEL and 1088XLD machines which I built myself. @mytek did an amazing job ensuring that the ground planes on those designs are utterly noise-free, and the video outputs show it. 

[+Larry]

I never had great improvement with the Super Video mod on any 130XE that I tried (vs stock).  And it's a fair amount of work! OTOH, I've always had good success with UAV.  From your pics, your video doesn't look bad to me, but if it bothers you, I'd definitely try UAV. I think you will see a modest improvement.

[xrbrevin]

ive seen worse

[monzamess]

Thanks everyone for your perspectives. In reading prior threads about video quality and comparing images, it's hard to really grasp the fine differences. I mean, yeah, RF vs Composite vs Chroma/Luma is easy to tell, but with these finer differences within variations of Chroma/Luma, it didn't hit me how different the machines & upgrades could be until I saw them back-to-back in person.

 

 

[TGB1718]

I don't have any video mods in my machines, however there is a marked difference between my 800 and my 130XE

when connected either by Composite or S-Video I have to make significant adjustments when I switch between

machines on my monitor, the 800 has the best of the two.

[tsom]

I just got a 130XE (see other 130xe thread ), and I see the same thing when using S-Video. I was hoping there was something simple I could try. The S-Video on my 800xl and 800's are much better.

[_The Doctor__]

super video mod and a number of cables... you would be surprised what different cables do... some appear robust and you'll think they'll be great... until you hook them up, others appear chincey and thin... you hook it up and it looks great. Cables really do matter.

[Voxel]

Can I suggest post #12.  Without seeing your machines I'm making the assumption that all of our XE's left the factory in a similar incomplete state.

 

I tried it and my XE's output was improved.

 

[+mytek]

The video cable can be the weak link that greatly contributes to the jail bars. I was battling a similar issue just recently on a prototype system I'm working on, until I decided to take apart the DIN-5 end of my 8-Bit Classics Atari to s-video cable.

 

 

To my dismay I discovered that the s-video signals are sharing a common shielded cable with both the luma and chroma lines being in direct contact (insulation to insulation). This allows the chroma to bleed into the luma, and thus produces the vertical lines in the display. The blue and yellow wires should be individually shielded.

 

 

After I built my own cable from scratch insuring that I used individual coax for each signal, the bars completely went away .

 

BTW, this is really more of an LCD monitor issue, and not something that normally affects CRTs.

 

[martinez]

Oh! Almost ordered this 8-Bit Classics cable, based on your recommendation in another thread:

On 17 lipiec 2020 at 10:56 PM, mytek said:

The Lotharek cable appears to be suffering from cross talk issues between the Luma and Chroma signals, causing banding (vertical lines) on screen. Whereas the 8-Bit Classics cable rendered a flawless video display.

 

I'm guessing that a common shield was being used for all of the signal lines on the Lotharek cable, instead of individual shielding that the 8-Bit Classics must be using.

The issue with Lotharek's cable must be thinner wires then?

If someone could dismantle its plug to confirm, that would be nice  

[+mytek]

Yeah I remembered posting that recommendation, but I'm glad I caught the problem with it fairly quick and was able to help you out. I should probably also find that other thread and point to what I discovered. Edit: you provided that link in your post - thanks

 

Since the Lotharek cable was even worse, I suspect that only one shield is present surrounding all the video signals including the composite. So that would mean twice the chance of bleeding chroma into the luma. When I get a chance I'll disassemble the DIN-5 side to verify.

 

[+mytek]

In the mean time this combination will not introduce any jail bar effects when S-Video is needed, although this isn't a magic bullet that will eliminate them if your computer is the source.

 

This cable breaks out all 4 signals (Luma, Chroma, Composite, Audio) with individually shielded cables. This looks to be the same as what B&C used to carry (EDIT: color assignments appear to be different), and the colors used won't necessarily equate to any industry standard for audio and video.

 

According to the Amazon listing here is what I deciphered for the colors when used on an 8-Bit Atari (the DIN jack image pin numbers are from the unit side view point). I make no guarantee that the information presented on Amazon is correct, so it'll probably take someone buying one to verify.

 

 

And here is what my B&C Cable color assignments look like (I verified this with a continuity test).

 

 

Available from Amazon for $14.99 (includes free shipping)

 

 

And if you need a standardized Mini-DIN plug for S-Video, this should do the trick.

 

Hosa VSF-454 10" S-Video to Dual RCA-F Breakout Cable ($4.36 - shipping not included)

 

Edit: I didn't see any info on which color goes where on this Breakout Cable (Luma = ? Chroma = ?), so that'll take a bit of experimentation.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by mytek
Added B&C Cable Information

[StickJock]

19 minutes ago, mytek said:

 

 

I got some similar cables from AliExpress.  The first pair I bought were wired incorrectly.  Beeping it out, it looks like they counted the pins sequentially as they had the third pin wired to ground, instead of pin 3.  The 5-pin din pinout extends the pin layout of the 3-pin din, with pins 4 & 5 inserted between pins 1&2 and 2&3.  I ordered from another vendor and got the right ones.

 

 

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, StickJock said:

I got some similar cables from AliExpress.  The first pair I bought were wired incorrectly.  Beeping it out, it looks like they counted the pins sequentially as they had the third pin wired to ground, instead of pin 3.  The 5-pin din pinout extends the pin layout of the 3-pin din, with pins 4 & 5 inserted between pins 1&2 and 2&3.  I ordered from another vendor and got the right ones.

Even though the Amazon sight shows the assignments by a sequential clock-wise count, they also showed a reference to the correct pin numbers before it. Since they don't show pin 2 assigned to an RCA plug, that would lead me to believe it is being used for the common ground which is what we want to see.

 

From Amazon Site...

Quote

5-pin DIN plug (wired 1 + 4 + 5 + 3) to 4 x RCA plugs.
RCA Phono connections
5 Pin DIN
AV Audio Cable
Going clockwise on the image the pin connections are:
PIN 1 = BLACK
PIN 2 = RED
PIN 3 = GROUND
PIN 4 = YELLOW
PIN 5 = WHITE

 

I just updated my previous post and added the color assignments for the B&C Cable, and they are different than what Amazon specified for theirs.

 

[StickJock]

I just realized that I incorrectly stated the mistake in the AliExpress pinout.  I got it backwards  - they had wired pin 3 to ground, instead of pin 2 (the third pin).

 

I bet someone beeped out a "good" cable in order to copy it, and sent the wiring connections using a sequential pin count instead of the DIN-5 pinout.  Then, the manufacturer followed their wiring spec using the correct pinout - thus putting the ground on the end pin (pin 3) instead of the middle pin (third pin).

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by StickJock

[monzamess]

mytek, thank you for posting about the Hosa s-video breakout cable! I already have 5-pin-to-RCA video cables so adding the Hosa adapter for s-video could have saved a few bucks over buying a whole new 5-pin-to-s-video cable, possibly with better results (and I just didn't feel like making my own). Live and learn...

 

[tsom]

I just received an s-video cable from 8 bit classics and it’s noticeably worse than the one I had (I don’t recall where I got it -it may have come with one of my 800’s. It’s got a little box just after the DIN where the s-video and component cables split off). I’ll have to get some pics of each one. 

[monzamess]

I received 2 of the Hosa VSF-454 (s-video breakout) cables and tried a couple of things. 

 

First picture shows the 8-bit Classics cable (as used in my original post) and below it is an old video cable I used back in the 80s with various Atari 8-bits, and it has the Hosa VSF-454 attached. I haven't taken any of these cables apart to examine the construction. 

 

Second picture is the 600XL UAV connected using that old cable + Hosa to the Dell 2001FP. Picture quality seems very good and about the same as the 8-bit Classics cable in my original post. 

 

Third picture is the 130XE connected using the old cable + Hosa to the Dell 2001FP. Picture quality looks better than the 8-bit Classics cable in my original post, but zooming out (fourth picture), you can see wider more diffuse "jail bars" on the image. Still bleah. 

 

Fifth picture: I have a super thin DIN5->4 RCA video cable (not pictured). Using it with the Hosa, 130XE, and 2001FP, I get slightly worse jail bars than the 8-bit Classics cable. 

 

Sixth picture: The 600XL UAV with that same thin cable still looks good. 

 

My conclusion: The cable matters, but the computer matters more. 

 

Bonus 7th and 8th pictures: C64 on 2001FP. 7th picture uses 8-bit Classics C64 s-video cable. 8th picture uses official Commodore cable (like for 1702) with the Hosa adapter. Quality looks the same to me. 

 

 

 

[+mytek]

Yeah the wider spaced jail bars are because of the Atari's digital switching circuits bleeding into the analog video circuits, and not because of the cable. And when you see the closely spaced jail bars, that's usually because of the video cable allowing chroma to bleed into the luma because of poor shielding between wires, or it can be the result of how the Atari creates the composite signal (combining chroma+luma with a simple capacitor) and this ends up cross coupling the chroma and luma in the S-Video part of the circuit.

 

As you've seen, even with the Super Video mod in use there are still issues. Seems like If you want to get rid of the wider jail bars, you'll have to go with the UAV which really does a fine job of isolating the analog video circuits from the digital switching noise. It does this through a combination of better design and utilizing independent voltage regulation.

 

So getting rid of all of the vertical banding is a 2 step process 1) use video cable with all signals independently shielded, and 2) upgrade on-board digital-to-analog video processing by installing UAV, or in some cases good results can be obtained by removing a capacitor.

 

[Gunstar]

I know this thread has turned to more about proper cables, but I just wanted to say about the original question of choice between UAV and Super Video 2.0. I've always been vocal about how much I love my Super Video 2.1 upgrade I did to my 1200XL, and I still recommend it as the best DIY video upgrade for the 1200XL, due to it being special on the 1200XL where it makes use of fixing the unique chroma boost circuit that Atari botched and it is included in the upgraded circuit. While a similar circuit could be made to go with 600/800XL Super Video upgrade, since the chroma boost circuit doesn't exist on those XL's. for DIY the better choice (and XE's too) is the latest version of the Clearpic mod. Otherwise go with the UAV kit.

[+mytek]

1 minute ago, Gunstar said:

 for DIY the better choice (and XE's too) is the latest version of the Clearpic mod.

I had good results with the ClearPic 2000 mod on my 1200XL, but it was very involved, requiring a lot of component changes. But it did come pretty close to what a UAV can do, and if you are handy with a soldering iron would save you some cash.

 

[leonk]

I want to add a bit more detail here based on my findings.  I recently upgraded an Atari 130XE NTSC to RGB output using Sophia.  To make the install super clean, I replaced the 5pin video DIN with 8 pin DIN (something that people have been doing for years when upgrading NEC Turbo Duo to RGB).  Then you use a custom cable to get RGB. I also removed L9 (Luma) and ran CSYNC into it.  But I did notice you can also skip doing this, and RGB will sync perfectly fine off the existing Luma pin.

 

 

 

When I connected the output to my Sony PVM, this is what I saw:

 

 

In comparison, here's how my XEGS looks like in RGB:

 

 

I knew it was picking up noise from somewhere.  I started disconnecting pins until the noise went away.  I can report that all the noise is generated by the chroma pin (pin 5 on the DIN)  It's so noisy, that the noise actually jumped to the RGB pins in the DIN! When I cut the trace, it cleaned up.  So S-Video is getting its noise from the chroma pin, not luma and not composite video.

 

Here's what it looks like now:

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by leonk

[Gavin1968]

Maybe the use of unshielded ribbon cable isn't a good idea for video? Just a thought, you are going to get interference with this kind of wire. That's my only idea, I am sure there are many others.

Good luck,

Gavin