General upscaler thread

[Greg2600]

17 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

Man those things must have been flying out like hotcakes, I think I checked about 1H:30M after the 9AM PST announced availability time and it was sold-out, sniping galore.

Good for Mike, wish he had used a more modern FPGA part, Cyclone IVs are so old (they were announced in 2009), at a point they disappeared from the Altera catalogue just to reappear couple months later (maybe they found a warehouse worth of) ....

Not sure about sniping given it was a limit of 1 per customer.  I think all chips are tough to get now from Asia.  I'm not sure if the cheapness was the reason, more likely he preferred to develop based on something he was more experienced with.

[phoenixdownita]

3 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Not sure about sniping given it was a limit of 1 per customer.  I think all chips are tough to get now from Asia.  I'm not sure if the cheapness was the reason, more likely he preferred to develop based on something he was more experienced with.

It's his first FPGA project he could have chosen anything, like Krikzz that moved from Altera Cyclone II to IV when the II got discontinued he could have chosen the newer Cyclone V (like kevtris products or MiSTer) or Cyclone 10 ... note that the Cyclone line is already the cheaper line of FPGA from Altera (aka Intel as they bough them a few years back) well MAX10 is also there.

 

Anyway no point in arguing, as long as it gets the job done and it's not obsoleted in 1Y or so we're fine.

[KeeperofLindblum]

I used to have a Framemeister back in the day, but I got out of the game. Also I have a fancy pair of CRTs for that classic gaming!

 

That being said!... What would the collective in this thread suggest as a good singular item (or multi cable if better) for an occasional want/need to plug an old console into a modern HDTV?

 

It would most likely be either PS1 and SNES. Maaaybe a GameCube. 

 

I have tried the PS1 HDMI cable, but it's meh. Last I checked, the HDRetrovision cable won't work with my TV. (Sad boosh...)

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

I have the Levelhike adapters for  the SNES/N64/Gamecube, PS2, and TG16.  (one of those might be a hyperkin brand though..?)  Actually maybe not, I remember returning a hyperkin one, so i think they are all levelhike.   They were fine.  Colors seem a little off on all of them.  Ever since I got back into CRT's (im up to three of them now!) I can't go back to playing old games on HD flatscreens anymore where everything seems so flat and lifeless even with expensive scalers and such.  With CRT's it feels like actual meat on the bones and new televisions just seem lifeless and skeletal.   

[KeeperofLindblum]

3 hours ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

I have the Levelhike adapters for  the SNES/N64/Gamecube, PS2, and TG16.  (one of those might be a hyperkin brand though..?)  Actually maybe not, I remember returning a hyperkin one, so i think they are all levelhike.   They were fine.  Colors seem a little off on all of them.  Ever since I got back into CRT's (im up to three of them now!) I can't go back to playing old games on HD flatscreens anymore where everything seems so flat and lifeless even with expensive scalers and such.  With CRT's it feels like actual meat on the bones and new televisions just seem lifeless and skeletal.   

Yeah, I have one of the POUND technology cables for the PS1. It gets the job done, but it's not very good.

 

I'm mostly trying to decide if I want to buy a few of the higher end cables like HDRetrovision or RAD2x or if I should go for one of the Retrotink adapters that handle it all but with one interface. 

[Steven Pendleton]

Apparently the Retrotink 5x Pro makes everything else obsolete or something, so that's what I would do if I had nothing. If that's out of stock or whatever, OSSC.

[newtmonkey]

9 hours ago, KeeperofLindblum said:

I used to have a Framemeister back in the day, but I got out of the game. Also I have a fancy pair of CRTs for that classic gaming!

 

That being said!... What would the collective in this thread suggest as a good singular item (or multi cable if better) for an occasional want/need to plug an old console into a modern HDTV?

 

It would most likely be either PS1 and SNES. Maaaybe a GameCube. 

 

I have tried the PS1 HDMI cable, but it's meh. Last I checked, the HDRetrovision cable won't work with my TV. (Sad boosh...)

For just occasional use, I'd go with the Retrotink 2X-Pro, personally.  Picture quality is fine, it processes the video correctly (no added lag), gives you a couple of optional settings to play around with (scanline filter and smoothing filter), and supports composite video, s-video, and component video.

[Atariboy]

34 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Apparently the Retrotink 5x Pro makes everything else obsolete or something, so that's what I would do if I had nothing. If that's out of stock or whatever, OSSC.

The Pixel FX Morph also looks pretty good and is planned to be only $50 more. And potentially of use for people is that it has a HDMI input (Handy say for the GameCube with a GCVideo based HDMI dongle) and a VGA input. 

 

I'm happy waiting and seeing, although I suspect the Retrotink 5X Pro will be where I put my money.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Atariboy

[newtmonkey]

6 hours ago, KeeperofLindblum said:

Yeah, I have one of the POUND technology cables for the PS1. It gets the job done, but it's not very good.

 

I'm mostly trying to decide if I want to buy a few of the higher end cables like HDRetrovision or RAD2x or if I should go for one of the Retrotink adapters that handle it all but with one interface. 

Sorry for replying to both messages, I can't edit my first post.

 

The RAD2x cables are basically "mini Retrotinks" in a cable.  If you are thinking you'd want to connect more than one system, I'd recommend just going with a single Retrotink unit as it will end up being cheaper in the long run than buying individual RAD2x cables for each system.

 

The HDRetrovision cables are excellently made, but they are neither upscalers nor line doublers so there is only so much they can do.

[KeeperofLindblum]

3 hours ago, newtmonkey said:

For just occasional use, I'd go with the Retrotink 2X-Pro, personally.  Picture quality is fine, it processes the video correctly (no added lag), gives you a couple of optional settings to play around with (scanline filter and smoothing filter), and supports composite video, s-video, and component video.

 

I was thinking of going the Retrotink Mini, but yeah the more I think about it the more I figure it's probably worth the extra cost to get component as well~

 

3 hours ago, Atariboy said:

The Pixel FX Morph also looks pretty good and is planned to be only $50 more. And potentially of use for people is that it has a HDMI input (Handy say for the GameCube with a GCVideo based HDMI dongle) and a VGA input. 

 

I'm happy waiting and seeing, although I suspect the Retrotink 5X Pro will be where I put my money.

 

Pixel FX Morph? Never heard of that... I'll have to check into it. <_<

 

1 hour ago, newtmonkey said:

Sorry for replying to both messages, I can't edit my first post.

 

The RAD2x cables are basically "mini Retrotinks" in a cable.  If you are thinking you'd want to connect more than one system, I'd recommend just going with a single Retrotink unit as it will end up being cheaper in the long run than buying individual RAD2x cables for each system.

 

The HDRetrovision cables are excellently made, but they are neither upscalers nor line doublers so there is only so much they can do.

 

Well that's disappointing (sorta) to hear about the RAD2x cables, but that at least takes them out of the running. (Also they've been out of stock for a while...) Also glad you confirmed on the HDRetrovision cables!

 

Seems like a Retrotink is the way to go!

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

I wish I had waited before getting all kinds of crazy cables and just got the retrotink instead..  lesson learned I guess.  It's fascinating how this market has picked up so much steam in the last 5-6 years.  But I think i've stopped caring about getting these old systems on new tvs, they just look better on CRT's no matter what.  Maybe OLED, but that still looks flat to me.

 

[Steven Pendleton]

In case anyone wants the RetroTINK 5X-Pro, they're in stock right now. I just ordered one. No more fooling around with the OSSC once I get it. I had to switch from Firefox to Edge to get it to show anything other than out of stock, but they are there as of this post if you want one.

 

URL: https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/5x-pro

Edited July 24, 2021 by Steven Pendleton

[turboxray]

23 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

In case anyone wants the RetroTINK 5X-Pro, they're in stock right now. I just ordered one. No more fooling around with the OSSC once I get it. I had to switch from Firefox to Edge to get it to show anything other than out of stock, but they are there as of this post if you want one.

 

URL: https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/5x-pro

30 minutes later and it's sold out

[Steven Pendleton]

8 hours ago, turboxray said:

30 minutes later and it's sold out

Figures. I think Mike said there will be more in stock next month and in September, so hopefully everyone who wasn't able to get one will get one soon.

[globeron]

Does someone maybe have an idea what could be wrong? The quality of the output is very sharp, but i keep losing the signal. Do i need to change an OSSC setting?

 

Setup is Myarc Geneve 9640 with RGB output and 8-Din pin to SCART. Then OSSC and HDMi to TV/monitor.  Using 15 KHz

 

What does the change of Hz mean?

 

(is it probably a Geneve issue, already changed the 5V regulators (info is in the ti99.atariage.com forum).

 

Or cable problem (SCART cable or pins). Or HDMI cable.  Or the TV monitor not being able to sync?  (I tried also a Samsung TV and it mentioned mode not supported)

 

[Steven Pendleton]

56 minutes ago, globeron said:

Does someone maybe have an idea what could be wrong? The quality of the output is very sharp, but i keep losing the signal. Do i need to change an OSSC setting?

 

Setup is Myarc Geneve 9640 with RGB output and 8-Din pin to SCART. Then OSSC and HDMi to TV/monitor.  Using 15 KHz

 

What does the change of Hz mean?

 

(is it probably a Geneve issue, already changed the 5V regulators (info is in the ti99.atariage.com forum).

 

Or cable problem (SCART cable or pins). Or HDMI cable.  Or the TV monitor not being able to sync?  (I tried also a Samsung TV and it mentioned mode not supported)

 

I have the same problem on my Neo Geo when the refresh rate changes, but apparently the OSSC's refresh rate indicator is not accurate anyway. I do believe that a lot of modern displays specifically want 59.94Hz, which is of course NTSC standard, and they don't really like getting anything else. Not sure how they handle 50Hz stuff, though.

[Steven Pendleton]

RetroTINK shipped. Impressions once I get it. Super ultra platinum excited for no more signal drops ever.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

8 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

RetroTINK shipped. Impressions once I get it. Super ultra platinum excited for no more signal drops ever.

I've actually been playing around with a Tink5x for the past 2 weeks. I'm honestly NOT that impressed with it compared to my current setup. The Tink5x seems like it was mainly geared towards the 16-bit and up consoles as far as its phase timings and setups. I've found that it shows nasty jail bars on the new TMS-RGB upgrades at least with the two CVs I've tested it with and confirmed this through CV testing from @Ruggers Customs as well. However, it does seem to like the RGB upgrades on the Intellivision okay, provided the resolutions it is outputting are compatible with your modern display.

 

But yeah, I honestly think my older Tink2x SCART handles the RGB stuff better and looks better even though it is only 480P output from it. And while there was that initial dialing in of stuff when I got my OSSC, I've got profiles programmed into it that are just a few button presses with a remove to switch to match the various consoles I've got connected up anyway. So I wouldn't ever plan to replace my OSSC and Extron setup with a Tink5x. 

 

 

[Steven Pendleton]

On 8/17/2021 at 10:17 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

I've actually been playing around with a Tink5x for the past 2 weeks. I'm honestly NOT that impressed with it compared to my current setup. The Tink5x seems like it was mainly geared towards the 16-bit and up consoles as far as its phase timings and setups. I've found that it shows nasty jail bars on the new TMS-RGB upgrades at least with the two CVs I've tested it with and confirmed this through CV testing from @Ruggers Customs as well. However, it does seem to like the RGB upgrades on the Intellivision okay, provided the resolutions it is outputting are compatible with your modern display.

 

But yeah, I honestly think my older Tink2x SCART handles the RGB stuff better and looks better even though it is only 480P output from it. And while there was that initial dialing in of stuff when I got my OSSC, I've got profiles programmed into it that are just a few button presses with a remove to switch to match the various consoles I've got connected up anyway. So I wouldn't ever plan to replace my OSSC and Extron setup with a Tink5x. 

 

 

Interesting. Fortunately for me, I am planning on using it exclusively on 4th gen and newer, as my two oldest systems are my Intellivision, which I'm intentionally leaving in its stock configuration as it seems to be some sort of demo unit and I want to keep it the way it was used as a demo unit, and my PC Engine SuperGrafx.

 

lol I forgot about the MSX2+. That might be interesting, as I only have a JP21 cable for that. I guess I'm keeping the Framemeister for now.

 

Basically I've gotten frustrated with how the combination of my monitor and the OSSC handle resolution changes, the OSSC's lack of S-video, the OSSC's bob deinterlace causing image retention on my monitor, and with the Framemeister's weirdness with colors. I've also had frequent signal drops on the Neo Geo AES with the OSSC, as well, in games like Garou: Mark of the Wolves and especially Andro Dunos. Andro Dunos is guaranteed to loose signal on my setup when the miniboss on stage 2 appears, so I am really hoping that this thing will solve that. It's going to show up in the next 3 hours and 51 minutes, so I'll find out soon.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Steven Pendleton
MSX2+~

[Steven Pendleton]

Alright, I've just finished testing the Retrotink 5X Pro thoroughly using Skeleton Saturn, launch 1998 Dreamcast, Neo Geo AES 3-6 with basic RGB bypass (cut traces), tiny PS2, and Mega Jet. Everything was done using HD Retrovision except the Dreamcast, which I used S-video for. No SuperGrafx/SSDS3 yet, as I haven't gotten there and that huge thing is a pain to deal with since I more or less have to rearrange my desk to fit the damn thing on there. I'll test it later and if there's anything important, I'll mention it. I also completely forgot to test the VA4 Mega Drive + Super 32X until just now. That specific combination doesn't look good with optimal timings on my OSSC, so hopefully I will remember to test it later. I did not test the Wii running Gamecube games since I forgot that I have a Wii since it's buried under a pile of junk in my closet, but maybe I'll try that later once I remember where I put Rogue Squadron II, as that and its disappointing sequel are the only Gamecube games that I have with me.

 

Basically the thing is really good with some minor things to point out. First, the thing is incredibly light. With HD Retrovision's heavy-ass cable plugged into it, it suspends the thing in midair just like what happens to the OSSC. Unlike the OSSC, there aren't any rubber feet on the bottom, so it slides around and I've already had it fall off of my desk.

 

There doesn't seem to be a Genesis/MD 256 mode, but it looks like the SNES/PCE/PS1 256 mode probably works just fine, so I suppose you can use that if you want. For 320 games, it looks like the generic 4:3 mode gives the correct aspect ratio while the 320 optimal modes use square pixels. I tried the generic 16:9 mode with Panzer Dragoon Zwei's anamorphic widescreen thing, but it didn't do anything. I have absolutely no idea how to use that game's widescreen mode with the OSSC or the RetroTINK.

 

Frame lock still gives me signal drops. Triple buffer mode never drops the signal ever, but you might see some weird garbage when using this mode on occasion, like even parts of screens that you've seen earlier. Still, with the triple buffer on, I actually get to see the entirety of the Saturn's startup sequence on my monitor, which is really nice. I tested the triple buffer mode with Andro Dunos on the AES and even the stage 2 miniboss didn't kill the signal when it appears, making that part of the game now not a deathtrap on my monitor. I also specifically tested Dracula X on the Saturn. I'm one of those weird people that prefer the Saturn version of Dracula X instead of the other versions, and the resolution switch in the menu is instantaneous. The RetroTINK seems to do some sort of thing after a resolution switch where the pixels aren't sharp for maybe half of a second or so before they become sharp in the optimal modes, and this is visible in the equipment menu in Dracula X.

 

My Skeleton Saturn seems to have a weird thing where the pixels bleed one pixel to the right in some places. This is mostly apparent in Thunder Force IV's speed indicator thingy and is more noticeable on the RetroTINK than on the OSSC when both are using the optimal timings. Not sure what causes this or if it can be fixed, but it's annoying and there's nothing I can do about it as far as I know unless maybe it just needs a recap or something. I do have another Saturn (the white one), but I'm too lazy to test it.

 

The motion adaptive deinterlacing looks great. I played Thunder Force VI from its crappy start to its equally crappy finish, as that terrible game causes image retention on my monitor due to deinterlacing even when I play it on my PS3, but it didn't here. It actually looks BETTER on the RetroTINK with the PS2 than it does on the PS3. I always felt that the PS3's PS2 output was very blurry, so this makes me happy. No optimal timing mode for anything newer than N64, however, so no choice but to use generic 4:3 for Dreamcast and newer, but it looked fine on the PS2.

 

For the Dreamcast, I used the official Sega S-video cable. S-video still looks nice, but it is of course softer than RGB or VGA and it's interlaced. The deinterlacing is of course great, but the Dreamcast's image is not centered; it's shifted to the right. Can't fix that since my monitor has no setting to do that, but it's not a big problem. Fortunately, the colors look great, unlike how they are on the Framemeister, where they are washed out.

 

Uh, yeah, I guess I'll just abruptly stop here since that's all I have to say right now.

[Steven Pendleton]

Oops, I forgot some stuff and I don't think I have enough time to edit.

 

First, there is no option to crop the image like the OSSC has. This means Mega Genesis Drive games will have the border and the RetroTINK can't do anything about that. I think it would be really great to have that option.

 

Second, fake scanlines. They are mostly just okay... except for the aperture grille. That one is not okay. It's excellent. It looks very close to my Trinitron's scanlines if I put my face within about 2 inches of the Trinitron. The only real difference is that the red, green, and blue phosphors are not there on the RetroTINK for obvious reasons. There's a new option for a thing that's basically hybrid scanlines, but I think it looks kind of weird. Overall, I think the OSSC's fake scanlines are better in general unless you use the aperture grille, which looks way nicer on the RetroTINK than trying to mimic that look on the OSSC. This probably might depend on your display and your line multiply mode, so maybe you might have a different experience.

 

I also forgot to mention that my monitor actually can handle the 5x multiply mode on the RetroTINK, as well, unlike on the OSSC, but I don't use it, as I still prefer the 4x 1080 mode since that guarantees that noting gets cut off. Yes, overscan areas exist, but that doesn't prevent me from wanting to see everything given the option to do so. Nothing in a resolution higher than the 1080 (OVER) mode works, probably because that exceeds my monitor's max resolution.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

quote:

First, the thing is incredibly light. With HD Retrovision's heavy-ass cable plugged into it, it suspends the thing in midair just like what happens to the OSSC. Unlike the OSSC, there aren't any rubber feet on the bottom, so it slides around and I've already had it fall off of my desk.

 

I can't stand when companies do this and cheap out.  How much more expensive would a few weights at the bottom be?  Irritating.  I felt the same way about the Genesis mini!  (it didnt even come with grippy rubber feet!!!!)  

[Steven Pendleton]

Okay, I tested a few games on the SuperGrafx + SSDS3.

 

It seems that the Saturn 352 mode kind of works for R-Type I & II, Tokimeki Memorial, and I think Daimakaimura (I tried it but I forgot...).

 

Most importantly, Tenshi no Uta works on the RetroTINK 5X Pro. It does some crazy stuff that looks like the line scrolling in the background of Thunder Force III's second stage when set to the PC Engine optimal timing mode, probably because it doesn't actually use the 256 resolution, but when set to generic 4:3, it works but looks really strange. It seems the screen in this game moves vertically when you move around or something. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it's really weird. Anyway, it seems that the game is finally playable on a modern screen.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Steven Pendleton

[Steven Pendleton]

I forgot to test the PSP go, so I just did. Massive screen tearing on PS1 games on the PSP. The entire bottom quarter of the screen tears very noticeably. PSP games seem fine, though.

[globeron]

On 8/8/2021 at 9:16 PM, globeron said:

Does someone maybe have an idea what could be wrong? The quality of the output is very sharp, but i keep losing the signal. Do i need to change an OSSC setting?

 

Setup is Myarc Geneve 9640 with RGB output and 8-Din pin to SCART. Then OSSC and HDMi to TV/monitor.  Using 15 KHz

 

What does the change of Hz mean?

 

(is it probably a Geneve issue, already changed the 5V regulators (info is in the ti99.atariage.com forum).

 

Or cable problem (SCART cable or pins). Or HDMI cable.  Or the TV monitor not being able to sync?  (I tried also a Samsung TV and it mentioned mode not supported)

 

 

 

Problem solved -- root cause interference of the USB-cable

 

I had a serial RS232 connection to a USB PC  (for file sharing) after disconnecting it the video output is stable now.