General upscaler thread

[0078265317]

On 12/23/2021 at 3:24 AM, mikesk8 said:

Good morning, 

I have recently started with N64 and RetroTink Pro (PAL via composite cable) and wanted to get your input on something  Basically, the picture on my LCD is always 720x576 (LCD native 1920 x 1080 set to aspect ratio mode) with RetroTink, which is correct for PAL. However, the actual game size (the area the game occupies) is dramatically different between games. In the attached examples, the area is just different, but there are examples like Wave Racer that the area is from top to bottom occupied (with black borders on left/right sides). 

 

I do not know, but I was expecting the same game area across the screen. I think it was the case in the CRT times. 

What joystick is that in the pic?  The big black one.

[Greg2600]

5 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

I am sure that for the Dreamcast it'll require you to combine the H/V sync into 75ohm CSYNC but maybe Mike can weigh in on that front  
 

https://www.retrorgb.com/building-a-passive-sync-combiner.html

(whether the above AND version work, or even the XNOR variation, depends on what the full chain does)

QQ: why do people think the Scart connector is upside down? If you have the console with Scart output in front of the Tink5X it works perfectly. I guess if you want a Scart switch N-in-1 then you'd likely want the cable to go towards the back of the Tink5X so the N input would be either on top or at the bottom, is that it?

The 5x will take the Dreamcast signal as is, right through the SCART input, pretty certain.  That is the purpose of say this adapter, which is nothing more than a pass through.

 

The SCART connector is upside because most would prefer to have the cable naturally bend behind the box, and not in front of it, as it does now.  It's not a big deal to me, I'm fine with it.  I only use it for SCART/RGB inputs and S-Video/Composite.  When that adapter comes, I can use it with VGA from Dreamcast or McWill Game Gear/Lynx.  Not going to run any component through it at this time, the Wii is fine going direct into my LCD TV via component, and the other systems (PS3, 360) are HDMI.  One of these days I'll grab a Wii U and then the Wii goes adios.

[phoenixdownita]

53 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

The 5x will take the Dreamcast signal as is, right through the SCART input, pretty certain.  That is the purpose of say this adapter, which is nothing more than a pass through.

 

The SCART connector is upside because most would prefer to have the cable naturally bend behind the box, and not in front of it, as it does now.  It's not a big deal to me, I'm fine with it.  I only use it for SCART/RGB inputs and S-Video/Composite.  When that adapter comes, I can use it with VGA from Dreamcast or McWill Game Gear/Lynx.  Not going to run any component through it at this time, the Wii is fine going direct into my LCD TV via component, and the other systems (PS3, 360) are HDMI.  One of these days I'll grab a Wii U and then the Wii goes adios.

"That is the purpose of say this adapter, which is nothing more than a pass through."

I am not sure, from that link "Switchable option to combine H&V sync into csync", so we know the actual RGB signals are the same (75ohm) aside the higher frequency between Scart-RGB and VGA but the fact that it has a selectable H/V vs CSync leads me to believe there's more to it (check https://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html for one combiner circuit).

Now whether the Scart side on the Tink5x can accept more than 240p/480i I do not know (I have to assume the YPbPr does INSTEAD as that was the requirement for 480p and up), I can venture that it does for this adapter to exist for the DC 480p support.

 

EDIT: At any rate thanks for that link, my DC is not exactly working at the moment and historically I only cared to use it via SVideo but if I get around to fix it .... 

 

EDIT2: hold on onto the Wii as it gives GC games the progressive treatment, my GC does not have the Digital out ... so even if I have a Wii U, I am afraid the Wii is here to stay

[mikesk8]

On 12/30/2021 at 3:44 AM, 0078265317 said:

What joystick is that in the pic?  The big black one.

Good eye :) its my favourite one for 8bit computing - Suzo Arcade (with metal shaft); made in The Netherlands.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

Regarding the 5x.. which I'm still loving to death.   Two things I'm having some issues with.  One is my OG Xbox with component cables seems really light and washed out..not vivid like all the other systems.     Two.. last weekend bought a modded Dreamcast with gdemu installed (for 90 bux!!).  I had a vga box from when I used to have a Dreamcast. The 5x didn't seem to recognize the input from the vga box either composite or svideo.  

 

Its prob shitty cables or something on my end with the Xbox maybe..  I took someone's advice here and bought a set of those rgb cables for genesis. Holy hell! I wasn't expecting the big jump I'm quality. It actually came with the Saturn adaptor with it too (used on ebay), but I don't see too much of a step up from the Saturn's svideo.. am I doing something wrong on that one?

 

oh one more thing.. I tossed the crappy hyperkin rca adapter for tf16 and bought a clone booster from eBay and I was blown away by tg16 going thru the retrotink.  I'm constantly fiddling with the settings tho where I have to tell myself please chill and just play.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

After posting that I realized that tg16 booster has a mini din that takes the Genesis cable. Trying it out and it looks great in rgb.   I don't like that the booster thingie is naked like that and it doesn't feel very secure.  

Edited January 5, 2022 by NeonSpaceBeagle

[Greg2600]

7 minutes ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

Regarding the 5x.. which I'm still loving to death.   Two things I'm having some issues with.  One is my OG Xbox with component cables seems really light and washed out..not vivid like all the other systems.     Two.. last weekend bought a modded Dreamcast with gdemu installed (for 90 bux!!).  I had a vga box from when I used to have a Dreamcast. The 5x didn't seem to recognize the input from the vga box either composite or svideo.  

 

Its prob shitty cables or something on my end with the Xbox maybe..  I took someone's advice here and bought a set of those rgb cables for genesis. Holy hell! I wasn't expecting the big jump I'm quality. It actually came with the Saturn adaptor with it too (used on ebay), but I don't see too much of a step up from the Saturn's svideo.. am I doing something wrong on that one?

 

oh one more thing.. I tossed the crappy hyperkin rca adapter for tf16 and bought a clone booster from eBay and I was blown away by tg16 going thru the retrotink.  I'm constantly fiddling with the settings tho where I have to tell myself please chill and just play.

Are those official MS Xbox cables?  There are some VGA's for DC which the Tink currently isn't great with.  Which one do you have?  Mine is the silver VGA box, it works via S-Video/Composite, granted it's muddy.  Dumb question but you changed the input on the RT5x remote?

 

Genesis/SMS had the worst ever composite signal I've ever seen, so RGB is indeed a huge step up.  Presuming the RGB cables you mean are HD Retrovision?  Those are the best of the best.  Saturn S-Video was pretty good, but to be honest, S-Video was not much of a difference from RGB/Component on those old systems, including Jag, N64 or PS1.  I have RGB solutions for all but not a huge improvement over S-video, especially since we're talking about 240p only on a CRT.  Once you get to like DC or Xbox, that's a different story, as those run 480p and higher.  This guy is the key reviewer of upscalers and he states the Tink 5x is superior to anything before/current aside from maybe 480i (Framemeister).

 

PS: Yes my modded TG-16 uses the Gen-2 din as well so HDR cables work.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

4 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

Are those official MS Xbox cables?  There are some VGA's for DC which the Tink currently isn't great with.  Which one do you have?  Mine is the silver VGA box, it works via S-Video/Composite, granted it's muddy.  Dumb question but you changed the input on the RT5x remote?

 

Genesis/SMS had the worst ever composite signal I've ever seen, so RGB is indeed a huge step up.  Presuming the RGB cables you mean are HD Retrovision?  Those are the best of the best.  Saturn S-Video was pretty good, but to be honest, S-Video was not much of a difference from RGB/Component on those old systems, including Jag, N64 or PS1.  I have RGB solutions for all but not a huge improvement over S-video, especially since we're talking about 240p only on a CRT.  Once you get to like DC or Xbox, that's a different story, as those run 480p and higher.  This guy is the key reviewer of upscalers and he states the Tink 5x is superior to anything before/current aside from maybe 480i (Framemeister).

 

PS: Yes my modded TG-16 uses the Gen-2 din as well so HDR cables work.

Generic Xbox component cable I believe.  The vga box I have is a clear blue Naki one. It turns on because the light works..   I just now switched the tg16 to the crt I use and it looks great there too with that hd retrovision cable for genesis. The price turned me off at first but now having Genesis and tg16 in rgb is making me want the snes one but that seems more like a one system cable, so I don't know.   The 5x is giving my crt a run for it's money. I lucked out on a great one too (ten bux!) Super low hour Toshiba AF 14 inch.. how great this little set looks is what started me down this graphical rabbit hole, but I'm loving every second of it.  

[Greg2600]

2 minutes ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

Generic Xbox component cable I believe.  The vga box I have is a clear blue Naki one. It turns on because the light works..   I just now switched the tg16 to the crt I use and it looks great there too with that hd retrovision cable for genesis. The price turned me off at first but now having Genesis and tg16 in rgb is making me want the snes one but that seems more like a one system cable, so I don't know.   The 5x is giving my crt a run for it's money. I lucked out on a great one too (ten bux!) Super low hour Toshiba AF 14 inch.. how great this little set looks is what started me down this graphical rabbit hole, but I'm loving every second of it.  

Okay, well in general the generic Xbox component cables were TRASH.  Can't say that anything produced recently are any better, but the ones from years back were bad bad bad.  Naki made the clear blue one first, then redesigned as the silver one.  The blue one had various deficiencies that you had to manually fix on it's board, as I recall.  Someone on FB has it and cannot get a component signal either out of that into the Tink.  There are modern DC VGA cables you could try, from Retro-bit, as well as some SCART RGB which are currently out of stock from Retro Accessories or Retro Gaming Cables UK. 

 

The SNES cable would work on an RGB modded N64 or NES (using the multi-out which many modders do).  I also have a SNES2JAG and it works on that, but normally yes it's just 1 system.  You could get good SCART SNES cables from Retro Accessories or Retro Gaming Cables UK and get RGB that way. 

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

Good to know!! Glad I didn't toss it. There's an old lcd Samsung downstairs that has vga input so I can try it directly into there.. will be interesting to see if it's really laggy. Honestly I'm kinda butthurt about how I played old games the entire decade of the teens, buts it fun making up for it now I guess.

 

Edit -- I did pick up the s video composite cable for Dreamcast.. s video didn't seem so great for me. Something seemed off.

Edited January 5, 2022 by NeonSpaceBeagle

[Steven Pendleton]

I think HD Retrovision is working on an Xbox cable. No idea when it will be ready. Hopefully they get that Dreamcast cable out eventually.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

After posting that I realized that tg16 booster has a mini din that takes the Genesis cable. Trying it out and it looks great in rgb.   I don't like that the booster thingie is naked like that and it doesn't feel very secure.  

I purchased my DB Grafx booster from Castlemania and it came in a nice enclosure so I'm surprised to see it bare like that?

 

49 minutes ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

Edit -- I did pick up the s video composite cable for Dreamcast.. s video didn't seem so great for me. Something seemed off.

Not sure which brand of s-video and composite combo cable you picked up for your DC, but most of them are actually running the composite video signal to the chroma line on the s-video. This makes the s-video produce a nasty checkerboard pattern and generally just looks wrong. I ended up taking the cable header apart, de-soldering the wire that was attached to the composite side and moved it to the chroma side properly. Then, I completely cut off the composite RCA plug from the cable. After doing that, the s-video output was quite nice!

 

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

It was a cheap clone off eBay. Cheap enough to give it a shot. The picture is amazing but I don't like how it just hangs out like that, but it's not that big of a deal.  I think it was a retrobit cable for the Dreamcast. Cheap 10 dollar set that came from Castlemania too (liked the free sticker!).

 

I wish I still had my jaguar.. how is that thru the tink? Wait wasn't that oddly just RF for some reason? 

[Greg2600]

12 hours ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

It was a cheap clone off eBay. Cheap enough to give it a shot. The picture is amazing but I don't like how it just hangs out like that, but it's not that big of a deal.  I think it was a retrobit cable for the Dreamcast. Cheap 10 dollar set that came from Castlemania too (liked the free sticker!).

 

I wish I still had my jaguar.. how is that thru the tink? Wait wasn't that oddly just RF for some reason? 

Jaguar outputs everything (composite, S-Video, RGB) natively.  Looks fine, again I don't personally notice a huge difference in S-Video and full RGB on these systems. 

13 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I think HD Retrovision is working on an Xbox cable. No idea when it will be ready. Hopefully they get that Dreamcast cable out eventually.

In both cases, I believe they have been stymied by the pandemic and sourcing components from overseas as well as setting up production.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

3 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Jaguar outputs everything (composite, S-Video, RGB) natively.  Looks fine, again I don't personally notice a huge difference in S-Video and full RGB on these systems. 

Gotta be careful with statements like that. I said something similar last year sometime and found out my comment became quite a discussion for jokes and snide comments on at least one German FB group.

 

But in general I have to agree to a point. I have my SNES on RGB with a dejitter board and with it at 5x through my OSSC I can't tell that big a difference between it and when I was using the S-video only that the s-video output didn't require me to add the dejitter board into it to work through my Extron. 

 

That is the main reason I haven't gone RGB across the board is because I've been more than pleased with the s-video output I get from most of my systems. The CV and Intellivision only have the RGB on them because at that time a good consistent composite/s-video solution wasn't there for them so RGB it was. 

 

[Steven Pendleton]

6 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

In both cases, I believe they have been stymied by the pandemic and sourcing components from overseas as well as setting up production.

Yeah, Nick said in an interview with Bob over at RetroRGB recently that they are focusing on keeping their existing products in stock right now, which is why there really hasn't been any progress on the Dreamcast cable.

[phoenixdownita]

On 1/5/2022 at 1:12 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

Gotta be careful with statements like that. I said something similar last year sometime and found out my comment became quite a discussion for jokes and snide comments on at least one German FB group.

 

But in general I have to agree to a point. I have my SNES on RGB with a dejitter board and with it at 5x through my OSSC I can't tell that big a difference between it and when I was using the S-video only that the s-video output didn't require me to add the dejitter board into it to work through my Extron. 

 

That is the main reason I haven't gone RGB across the board is because I've been more than pleased with the s-video output I get from most of my systems. The CV and Intellivision only have the RGB on them because at that time a good consistent composite/s-video solution wasn't there for them so RGB it was. 

 

There's one thing that for sure RGB gives you that SVideo cannot, aka "NTSC50" (well really 50Hz support) ... for the Jag playing Trevor McFur at 50Hz makes it much more enjoyable for me, alas on an NTSC TV the output of SVideo at 50Hz is really not recognized, vs say the reverse aka PAL60 which was almost a "standard". I don't think I tried on a Tink5x to see what happens, I have also a Genny with 50/60Hz mod .... which is very useful for Xenon2 [both SMS and MD version] as that was a PAL game.

For the rest if the Svideo output is clean (depends on console) and the consumer device (be it a TV or upscaler) half decent you can get very good results, I had one TV though whose SVideo IN was barely better than Composite, another instead that had stellar results to the point I hardly bothered with RGB cables. I did mod all of my consoles for SVideo when possible and now for most of them I also have RGB Scart cables which are fantastic for 50Hz (as we know RGB is neither PAL nor NTSC nor SECAM, no color encoding whatsoever).
 

[DJ Clae]

I'm very happy with this Dreamcast scart cable, meant specifically for upscalers like the 5X:

 

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/sega/SEGA-DREAMCAST-RGB-SCART-CABLES/SEGA-DREAMCAST-RGB-SCART-CABLE-WITH-480P-MODE

[turboxray]

On 1/6/2022 at 10:55 PM, phoenixdownita said:

There's one thing that for sure RGB gives you that SVideo cannot, aka "NTSC50" (well really 50Hz support)  
 

 What your describing is RGB 50hz with PAL frame timings, which is literally just a pure PAL frame/signal. That's has nothing to do with NTSC hahah. For it to be that NTSC, it would have to be an NTSC color carrier.

[newtmonkey]

I've been using the RetroTINK-5X a lot lately.  I am really pleased with this device, especially after the latest firmware.  I've got profiles set up for my composite-only systems (Famicom, PCE), S-Video-only system (N64), PS1 (S-Video), and PS2 (component).

 

I've been using the new "CRT simulation" option for bob deinterlacing for PS2.  Motion adaptive deinterlacing definitely looks cleaner/better, but I get a kick out of how closely bob/CRT resembles playing PS2 on a CRT.

 

One thing that is really fun about the latest FW is the various scanline filters.  I use one of the consumer TV presets for composite consoles, and the BVM setting for S-Video/component.  This is a ton of fun; you can now easily simulate a "period-correct" TV for each system, if you want.

 

I ended up getting an official S-Video cable for my PS1, and was pleasantly surprised with the quality compared with RGB.  The colors are obviously not as accurate as RGB, but it still looks fantastic.  It's also a bit nostalgic for me, as I can pretty closely simulate how I actually played PSX back in the day (S-Video connected to a Sony WEGA TV).

[Greg2600]

So just a heads up, the PixelFX Co. are likely to release their Morph video scaler later this year. 

 

 

 

[phoenixdownita]

On 1/8/2022 at 3:20 PM, turboxray said:

 What your describing is RGB 50hz with PAL frame timings, which is literally just a pure PAL frame/signal. That's has nothing to do with NTSC hahah. For it to be that NTSC, it would have to be an NTSC color carrier.

No no, what I meant is that over RGB you can get both 50Hz and 60Hz AND given RGB is not encoded many sets accept both frequencies (at least that is my experience).
On top of that sets/upscalers that accept PAL via composite/SVideo also seems to work fine with PAL60, but the same sets that accepts NTSC do not accept it if at 50Hz .... so my whole take was that via RGB you can add a 50/60Hz switch to many consoles and get out of it the "right" signal more or less (mostly irrespective if the console is NTSC or PAL) while if you use SVideo if you start with a PAL machine and add a 60Hz switch you get PAL60 that most likely would work if instead you start with an NTSC machine and you add a 50Hz switch you get "NTSC50" (my name mind you) and I have yet to see anything accept it. In that sense even in cases where the SVideo quality may be almost up to RGB [and it can get pretty damn close in my experience] you'd still wouldn't be able to enjoy a 50/60Hz switch if you start in NTSC land.

Obviously there are cases where the differences are deeper and a simple frequency switch is not enough but at least on my NTSC Megadrive2 [I wired myself a CXA2075 encoder replacement to get SVideo out of it and installed it an NTSC configuration] AND on my NTSC Atari Jaguar the frequency switch allows the games to run at 50Hz but I can only "see" them via RGB (and the slower speed is palpable if not downright obvious as some games just break at 60Hz like Xenon2). 

[phoenixdownita]

15 hours ago, newtmonkey said:

...

 

I ended up getting an official S-Video cable for my PS1, and was pleasantly surprised with the quality compared with RGB.  The colors are obviously not as accurate as RGB, but it still looks fantastic.  It's also a bit nostalgic for me, as I can pretty closely simulate how I actually played PSX back in the day (S-Video connected to a Sony WEGA TV).

Why do you say that the colors are not as good as RGB?
As I understand it Chroma on SVideo carries the UV color info of the YUV color space (with the Y being carried separately) .... I do not think the extra separation of RGB in general would "clean up" the chroma all that much, but at best further reduce interference .... unless maybe the PS1 (or others) encoder may "crush" a little the color space when emitting Y/C which is possible given Y/C was the base to then produce Composite, the CXA1145 used in many consoles of the 80s takes RGBSync (+ others) as inputs and spits out Y/C requiring an external circuit in the form of a filter and a delay line appropriate for the application (PAL/NTSC) and then input back to the chip that then generates Composite via internal Y/C mixer.

 

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

After an entire month of gushing over the 5x pro I went back to using a CRT this weekend.. yep, no comparison.  Maybe if I was using the 5x pro on a super high end tv?

[Austin]

Nah, you'll only ever be able to get so close to replicating the look of a CRT on a flat panel display. There's no replacing the real deal.