Jag's 3d is actually impressive?

[Lost Dragon]

7 hours ago, sd32 said:

From what i have read, the PS1 wins when it comes to pushing sprites (it uses its polygon engine to draw sprites as quads), and Saturn wins when it comes to background layers (its VDP2 is a monster when it comes to background layers). Both the Playstation and Jaguar have to generate backgrounds layers with sprites, so they are at a disadvantage here againts the Saturn. Also Saturn and Playstation have 1.5 and 1.0 MB of RAM dedicated just to video respectively, unlike the Jaguar.

So when all its balanced out Saturn come out on top in 2D, Playstation comes in second (with advantages like transparency and lightning effects) and Jaguar in 3rd.

I guess Jag haters will point out that games like Raiden and Pitfall fail to run at 60FPS which even the 16 bit consoles managed...thank god we have Rayman t counter that argument.

This is my perspective according to some stuff i have read. Feel free to correct me on whatever.

? I think it's more the fault of having Imagitec Design handle Jaguar Raiden and Pitfall, than the Jaguar hardware itself, that these only run at 30 fps. 

 

I feel the same about Tiertex being given Flashback to convert to Jaguar. 

 

Both studios most likely choosen as they were lowest bidders and able to deliver games with a quick turnaround time. 

 

Using the Jaguar hardware to it's full potential unlikely to be a priority for either studio. 

[Lost Dragon]

On 8/12/2020 at 7:35 AM, JagChris said:

LD found a bunch of quotes from them somewhere that suggests that IS a first generation engine and IS 2 was not quite second generation but like 1.5 was the impression I got.

I probably did throw them up in one of the many Jaguar threads back along, but if any newcomers want to read them, I'm sorry to say you'll have to dig them out ?

 

I didn't keep them and have no idea which thread they were in, sorry. 

 

There's just been so many similar threads about the Jaguar and it's 3D abilities compared to it's rivals, over the years on here, it's nigh on impossible to remember what i quoted from whom in response to a point a fellow poster put up and where. 

[Cobra Kai]

Is Tempest 2000 a 3D game? I'm honestly a bit confused on that one. Some of the objects appear to be 3D objects, but there's so much other stuff going on...star fields, and particle explosions....how is this game classified? 

 

I ask because the usual games are always talked about when it comes to specs, but Tempest 2000 and Defender 2000 seem to get left out, but to me those are the most impressive games visually on the Jaguar, and not just because they are among the funnest. Defender 2000 in particular is the most impressive game on the system, as I can't think of another game with so many on screen objects, and the Jaguar handles it all smooth as silk. 

 

 

[Lost Dragon]

On 8/12/2020 at 5:15 AM, marcio_napoli said:

This week I've been playing the Jag more often than previous months.   

 

Watching an Iron Soldier 2 video (below), a thought has occured.  We're used to believe that Rebellion has extracted every ounce of 3d power from the Jag (AVP and Skyhammer).

 

As impressive as AVP and Skyhammer are, they're really not much more than boxes, finely textured with SUPERB art direction, and even so the Jag still struggles with frame rate.

 

 

Looking at those nice, round silos, there's a lot of polys being used to make those shapes so round.

 

Also, those balls fired as projectiles, they're polygonal too, and actually made of plenty of polys. Finally, whenever one enemy explodes, several polys fly everywhere.

 

We're used to believe the Jag struggles to render just a few boxes on screen, but this games proves the Jag, when properly programmed, can handle impressive poly counts. That's no me making things up from thin air, just look at those round objects, there's plenty of polys being rendered there.

 

Ok ok, I know that a variable poly count is employed according to distance from object, and the Gouraud shading tricks the illusion of better poly count, and those silos are not textured, but even still that's way higher poly count than Rebellion games.

 

Before you fight me, I've been doing 3d animaton for 2+ decades, not a layman here.

 

At some moments, you have on screen (simultaneously):  a silo, balls as projectiles, a building or two exploding on the BG (lots of flying polys) and some enemies, and frame rate remains high.  Most of these are even textured.

 

That's impressive in my opinion, way more 3d power than people attribute to the Jag's capabilities.

 

Anyway, what do you think?

I think it's more a case of Skyhammer being a case of how far Rebellion had pushed the Jaguar hardware, before moving into the commercially viable platforms. 

 

 

Legions Of The Undead was to use a more advanced version of the AVP engine and be a multifomat title, so had it been finished and released as planned on PC, Playstation and Jaguar, it would of made for an interesting comparison title. 

 

I can remember the Jaguar 3D getting praised by the commercial games press at the time, even titles like Aircars, Games World saying your targets (tanks etc) all rendered in beautifullly shaded, light-sourced 3D, FFL featuring some neat shading techniques and often astounding attention to detail, size of city-based levels in Iron Solider impressing the and the game engine taking the Jaguar graphic capabilities to a new level.. 

 

 

Pre-production Space War looking very impressive, calling it a texture-mapped extravaganza.. 

 

 

You just had to dig deep to find the praise i guess. 

[Bill Loguidice]

5 hours ago, Sauron said:

I'm no expert on this myself, but from what I've seen the Jag can hold its own against the PSX and Saturn in regards to 2D, to the point where whatever performance gap exists isn't that significant. 

 

What would we use as examples of the most impressive 2D game or games on Jaguar versus something similar on PS1 and Saturn, though? I think the Jaguar is at a big disadvantage here in terms of library size (50 cartridges plus 11 CD games (61 total) versus over 3,000 on PS1 and over 1,000 on Saturn) and overall developer breadth/depth/skill/budgets. It's always a struggle to find comps beyond straight up ports (like Tempest 2k), which are always suspect because they're rarely done to take advantage of the systems they're ported to.

I guess another way to put it, is there truly a 2D game on the Jaguar that we can say takes advantage of (nearly) every possible feature/advantage of the system, or is a showcase that wouldn't look out of place on newer systems? I mean, it's a cottage industry to talk about the Jaguar's untapped and as-yet unseen 3D power after 27 years, but, unless I'm overlooking something, I don't think there's much on the 2D side either that's necessarily a true showcase of parity with its contemporaries (and I'm NOT saying it doesn't have good games, I'm just saying showcases of raw 2D power). Obviously, systems like the PS1 and Saturn had a chance to show off their full potential in both 2D and 3D stuff, and I'd say we even had a good glimpse of that with the 3DO (despite its own challenges) thanks to having a little over 300 releases of its own, several of which were from bigger developers and publishers than the Jaguar was able to have. 

[Lost Dragon]

40 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

What would we use as examples of the most impressive 2D game or games on Jaguar versus something similar on PS1 and Saturn, though? I think the Jaguar is at a big disadvantage here in terms of library size (50 cartridges plus 11 CD games (61 total) versus over 3,000 on PS1 and over 1,000 on Saturn) and overall developer breadth/depth/skill/budgets. It's always a struggle to find comps beyond straight up ports (like Tempest 2k), which are always suspect because they're rarely done to take advantage of the systems they're ported to.

I guess another way to put it, is there truly a 2D game on the Jaguar that we can say takes advantage of (nearly) every possible feature/advantage of the system, or is a showcase that wouldn't look out of place on newer systems? I mean, it's a cottage industry to talk about the Jaguar's untapped and as-yet unseen 3D power after 27 years, but, unless I'm overlooking something, I don't think there's much on the 2D side either that's necessarily a true showcase of parity with its contemporaries (and I'm NOT saying it doesn't have good games, I'm just saying showcases of raw 2D power). Obviously, systems like the PS1 and Saturn had a chance to show off their full potential in both 2D and 3D stuff, and I'd say we even had a good glimpse of that with the 3DO (despite its own challenges) thanks to having a little over 300 releases of its own, several of which were from bigger developers and publishers than the Jaguar was able to have. 

Multifomat titles like Rayman, Primal Rage etc are the usual suspects. 

 

Had Probe got anywhere with converting Playstation MKIll to Jaguar we might of had another for comparison. 

 

 

Thing with the Jaguar is, your looking at a system where 2D titles like Conan and Toki Goes Apeshit were canned far too early in development to really gauge what was possible, Conan not even a full level finished. 

 

Then you have Deathwatch, apparently canned because Atari marketing thought 2D was dead. 

 

 

Ultra Vortex never impressed as a 2D fighter personally. 

 

Conversions of things like Sensible Soccer, Worms and Cannon Fodder don't help as they were never graphical showcases to start with. 

 

The very limited nature of the Jaguar commercial library rears it's head once again. 

[JagChris]

Ok I found the Eclipse quote

 

Quote

I have also experimented with various kinds of pixel transfer concepts, using combined Blitter / GPU routines, caching and data ordering techniques. In the end I worked out a routine that could make much higher use of the 64 bit / fast page mode characteristics than the usual pixel mode blitter stuff.

We worked on a new 3D engine designed around this routine to create a completely texture mapped racing game with a decent frame rate. Unfortunately, as with some other proposed projects, Atari was just too blind and unflexible to see what big step foward we could achieve and so we had to cancel development after a few months as we couldn't afford to proceed without Atari's support. At least some results from our research were used in IS2.

-Marc

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by JagChris

[Cobra Kai]

52 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

What would we use as examples of the most impressive 2D game or games on Jaguar versus something similar on PS1 and Saturn, though? I think the Jaguar is at a big disadvantage here in terms of library size (50 cartridges plus 11 CD games (61 total) versus over 3,000 on PS1 and over 1,000 on Saturn) and overall developer breadth/depth/skill/budgets. It's always a struggle to find comps beyond straight up ports (like Tempest 2k), which are always suspect because they're rarely done to take advantage of the systems they're ported to.

I guess another way to put it, is there truly a 2D game on the Jaguar that we can say takes advantage of (nearly) every possible feature/advantage of the system, or is a showcase that wouldn't look out of place on newer systems? I mean, it's a cottage industry to talk about the Jaguar's untapped and as-yet unseen 3D power after 27 years, but, unless I'm overlooking something, I don't think there's much on the 2D side either that's necessarily a true showcase of parity with its contemporaries (and I'm NOT saying it doesn't have good games, I'm just saying showcases of raw 2D power). Obviously, systems like the PS1 and Saturn had a chance to show off their full potential in both 2D and 3D stuff, and I'd say we even had a good glimpse of that with the 3DO (despite its own challenges) thanks to having a little over 300 releases of its own, several of which were from bigger developers and publishers than the Jaguar was able to have. 

Yes, Defender 2000. I know many people don't like its gameplay and oversized ship, but that is kind of besides the point. Just how many on-screen objects is D2000 putting on display at any given time? It's an incredible amount, on par with 1990's shmups IMHO. There's also no shortage of colors present either, and I'll stand by that this is the most technically impressive Jaguar game overall.

[Bill Loguidice]

7 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

Multifomat titles like Rayman, Primal Rage etc are the usual suspects. 

 

Had Probe got anywhere with converting Playstation MKIll to Jaguar we might of had another for comparison. 

 

 

Thing with the Jaguar is, your looking at a system where 2D titles like Conan and Toki Goes Apeshit were canned far too early in development to really gauge what was possible, Conan not even a full level finished. 

 

Then you have Deathwatch, apparently canned because Atari marketing thought 2D was dead. 

 

 

Ultra Vortex never impressed as a 2D fighter personally. 

 

Conversions of things like Sensible Soccer, Worms and Cannon Fodder don't help as they were never graphical showcases to start with. 

 

The very limited nature of the Jaguar commercial library rears it's head once again. 

Yeah, that's part of the problem, right? Taking Primal Rage, it's better than some contemporary ports, but worse than others, and certainly wasn't programmed in a way that we can necessarily say they took full advantage of the Jaguar's capabilities (presumably - I don't know if they ran into RAM issues or something). Taking Rayman, it certainly was designed with the Jaguar in mind and is superb, but were the other ports necessarily optimized? As ports of a straight 2D game that already looked great, probably not.

 

What I'd prefer is again to instead avoid ports or conversions and go with straight up games that showcased the platform's strengths. We can point to such games on many other platforms, but because of the Jaguar's meager contemporary library, it really didn't have that chance, even with 2D stuff, which it arguably should have had (and we know why it didn't, partially, because of the corporate mandates/philosophy).

[7800JAGFAN]

I was just about to mention Defender 2000.   Again as I said before, it is throwing a shit-ton of sprites around, to much to take in.  I have to watch the map when playing, but watching others play, its really fast and a lot of stuff moving.  Also again, I know jack-shit about the tech side of these things.  One more thought, but Trevor McFur, its a rough/unfinished game, but a lot of large zooming/scaling sprites with a lot of color happening there too.  I don't know of a PS1 game that matches either of these.  Too bad something like Metal Slug was never ported to CD, that would be a good test,  PS1 cut animations and Saturn slowed down more than the Neo Geo in a few spots.  I have always wondered if cart size didn't come into play how the Jaguar would have handled these.  

[Bill Loguidice]

4 minutes ago, Cobra Kai said:

Yes, Defender 2000. I know many people don't like its gameplay and oversized ship, but that is kind of besides the point. Just how many on-screen objects is D2000 putting on display at any given time? It's an incredible amount, on par with 1990's shmups IMHO. There's also no shortage of colors present either, and I'll stand by that this is the most technically impressive Jaguar game overall.

Fair enough. Unfortunately, I'm one of the ones who has a hard time appreciating the technical aspects of the game because I REALLY hate the rendered 90s graphic look that was so popular at the time on the Jaguar and other, contemporary systems. It's just so ugly to me. I've long since said that I'll take the modest, tasteful 80s arcade sprites over the 90s (and often today's, like on the Amico) rendered look.

With the above in mind, it's certainly fast and smooth, which is ALWAYS appreciated, and there are plenty of particle effects, but I don't see much going on with the backgrounds, number of enemies, or enemy sizes to consider it even inline with many contemporary SHMUPs, let alone beyond them. That in and of itself would be fine, but if we're talking a showcase of the Jaguar's 2D prowess, if this is it, then that's fine, but is it really something other systems (outside of the earlier 16-bit ones) would have struggled with in any way? In other words, what is the Jaguar doing here specifically that is taking advantage of its 2D prowess so I can understand better? (genuine question)

[Bill Loguidice]

1 minute ago, 7800JAGFAN said:

I was just about to mention Defender 2000.   Again as I said before, it is throwing a shit-ton of sprites around, to much to take in.  I have to watch the map when playing, but watching others play, its really fast and a lot of stuff moving.  Also again, I know jack-shit about the tech side of these things.  One more thought, but Trevor McFur, its a rough/unfinished game, but a lot of large zooming/scaling sprites with a lot of color happening there too.  I don't know of a PS1 game that matches either of these.  Too bad something like Metal Slug was never ported to CD, that would be a good test,  PS1 cut animations and Saturn slowed down more than the Neo Geo in a few spots.  I have always wondered if cart size didn't come into play how the Jaguar would have handled these.  

I think the PS1 fared more than well in the area of SHMUPS, doing things the Jaguar never did (or had a chance to do): http://www.racketboy.com/retro/phenominal-playstation-ps1-2d-shooters-shmups-library

 

I hate to compare either the PS1 or Saturn to the Jaguar, though, because they are newer systems, so should of course be better in almost every possible way. I know there's an obsession with Jaguar super fans to want to claim certain parities against those other systems (continuing the tradition of Atari themselves in the infamous Next Gen article), but it really does the platform a disservice for a variety of reasons, including the aforementioned library sizes. It's not a fair comparison.

In terms of contemporary systems, the 3DO never got any traditional SHMUPS, so that's certainly something the Jaguar has in its favor against that system.

[Cobra Kai]

6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Fair enough. Unfortunately, I'm one of the ones who has a hard time appreciating the technical aspects of the game because I REALLY hate the rendered 90s graphic look that was so popular at the time on the Jaguar and other, contemporary systems. It's just so ugly to me. I've long since said that I'll take the modest, tasteful 80s arcade sprites over the 90s (and often today's, like on the Amico) rendered look.

With the above in mind, it's certainly fast and smooth, which is ALWAYS appreciated, and there are plenty of particle effects, but I don't see much going on with the backgrounds, number of enemies, or enemy sizes to consider it even inline with many contemporary SHMUPs, let alone beyond them. That in and of itself would be fine, but if we're talking a showcase of the Jaguar's 2D prowess, if this is it, then that's fine, but is it really something other systems (outside of the earlier 16-bit ones) would have struggled with in any way? In other words, what is the Jaguar doing here specifically that is taking advantage of its 2D prowess so I can understand better? (genuine question)

That in bold I couldn't tell you. Do you  really think that D2000 doesn't showcase a boatload of enemies and other objects simultaneously? It's tracking objects for the entire  level, all the time, each with it's own independent movements. It's not just rendering what's on-screen. We're talking hundreds of objects. Sure it doesn't look as refined and pretty as Raiden II, but I think it's processing more information than that game, and it also has a nicely composed soundtrack going on. 

 

I guess what I'm arguing, is that given all that D2000 is doing, I think it's safe to say that the Jaguar ( probably the JagCD) could have handled many of the popular arcade shmups that the Saturn has. It's hard to directly compare D2000 to other shmups because D2000 is so unique in itself. But it shows the Jag can handle a ton of objects, which you want in any shmup.

[Bill Loguidice]

8 minutes ago, Cobra Kai said:

That in bold I couldn't tell you. Do you  really think that D2000 doesn't showcase a boatload of enemies and other objects simultaneously? It's tracking objects for the entire  level, all the time, each with it's own independent movements. It's not just rendering what's on-screen. We're talking hundreds of objects. Sure it doesn't look as refined and pretty as Raiden II, but I think it's processing more information than that game, and it also has a nicely composed soundtrack going on. 

 

I guess what I'm arguing, is that given all that D2000 is doing, I think it's safe to say that the Jaguar ( probably the JagCD) could have handled many of the popular arcade shmups that the Saturn has. It's hard to directly compare D2000 to other shmups because D2000 is so unique in itself. But it shows the Jag can handle a ton of objects, which you want in any shmup.

It's really hard for me to get a handle on it personally because the visuals are so ugly to me and the in-game objects (outside of your ship) are pretty small. I also don't count hundreds of objects, but I could be wrong. I note only a few dozen total ships and people (at most) at any one time. The rest are particle and other effects. 

 

I mean, the game does what it sets out to do, make a newer version of Defender, but I just basically see that original game with some 90s-style aesthetics. I don't feel like it's pushing any limits and certainly not doing things other SHMUPS that are literally bullet and enemy hell with more layered backgrounds and what-not do. The best thing I can say is that it looks and feels like a Jaguar game, part of its signature style, but I still struggle to see what it's doing from a technical standpoint. I feel like all of those other modes and games were included for a reason to help round out the package (value).

Perhaps the "issue" is with Llamasoft themselves (and Jeff Minter specifically). I mean, he was never about pushing technical limits and he became more obsessed with trippy effects after the 8-bit stuff. This is a competent shooter from a seasoned veteran/team with smooth play and trippy effects (in more than one mode), but nothing more to it that I can see.

[grey/msb]

@agradeneu: at Silly Venture 2020? Rather not. The plan was to publish the games in beautiful box with all extras after selling our first products. The sales go slow, though... So we were forced to delay it few months...

Edited August 15, 2020 by grey/msb

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Fair enough. Unfortunately, I'm one of the ones who has a hard time appreciating the technical aspects of the game because I REALLY hate the rendered 90s graphic look that was so popular at the time on the Jaguar and other, contemporary systems. It's just so ugly to me. I've long since said that I'll take the modest, tasteful 80s arcade sprites over the 90s (and often today's, like on the Amico) rendered look.

With the above in mind, it's certainly fast and smooth, which is ALWAYS appreciated, and there are plenty of particle effects, but I don't see much going on with the backgrounds, number of enemies, or enemy sizes to consider it even inline with many contemporary SHMUPs, let alone beyond them. That in and of itself would be fine, but if we're talking a showcase of the Jaguar's 2D prowess, if this is it, then that's fine, but is it really something other systems (outside of the earlier 16-bit ones) would have struggled with in any way? In other words, what is the Jaguar doing here specifically that is taking advantage of its 2D prowess so I can understand better? (genuine question)

16 bit color sprites and parallax backgrounds and quite a lot of animation frames. Tons of particles and sprites, trippy color effects. He used some scaling effects for the sprites too. I think its quite impressive. I haven't seen anything like it on other systems, its very special. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

What would we use as examples of the most impressive 2D game or games on Jaguar versus something similar on PS1 and Saturn, though? I think the Jaguar is at a big disadvantage here in terms of library size (50 cartridges plus 11 CD games (61 total) versus over 3,000 on PS1 and over 1,000 on Saturn) and overall developer breadth/depth/skill/budgets. It's always a struggle to find comps beyond straight up ports (like Tempest 2k), which are always suspect because they're rarely done to take advantage of the systems they're ported to.

I guess another way to put it, is there truly a 2D game on the Jaguar that we can say takes advantage of (nearly) every possible feature/advantage of the system, or is a showcase that wouldn't look out of place on newer systems? I mean, it's a cottage industry to talk about the Jaguar's untapped and as-yet unseen 3D power after 27 years, but, unless I'm overlooking something, I don't think there's much on the 2D side either that's necessarily a true showcase of parity with its contemporaries (and I'm NOT saying it doesn't have good games, I'm just saying showcases of raw 2D power). Obviously, systems like the PS1 and Saturn had a chance to show off their full potential in both 2D and 3D stuff, and I'd say we even had a good glimpse of that with the 3DO (despite its own challenges) thanks to having a little over 300 releases of its own, several of which were from bigger developers and publishers than the Jaguar was able to have. 

I know some people might roll their eyes, but you never heard of Native Demo? ??

[Bill Loguidice]

32 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I know some people might roll their eyes, but you never heard of Native Demo? ??

Of course I have. However, Native demo is not a full game and there's been considerable speculation whether or not it could even fit in memory if they did try to finish it. I believe even the developers themselves said they hit a roadblock they couldn't surmount. But yes, if Native demo could have been a finished game, it would have certainly been extremely impressive and would have showed off the potential of the Jaguar and Jaguar CD nicely. It definitely looked next gen for the time and wouldn't be in the same grey area in terms of casual impressiveness that I feel Defender 2000 is. Of course, that's just my opinion. It's clear that some people here think that Defender 2000 has quite a bit going for it that I just can't grok.

[7800JAGFAN]

I think if you just look at Defender2000 in the later levels in the video posted above, I have not seem the PS1 move this many things as fast.  Dodonpachi was pretty good, but choked up in spots.  Also I read something about the Jaguar being able to put more colors on the screen and that it did have advantages in 2D performance, but again, I know nothing tech wise and only have Defender, Rayman, Trevor McFur, and maybe the Native demo, but its just a demo, for any proof.  I guess thats part of the fun for me.  I always like the underdogs, but I do feel as a owner of a Saturn,PSX,3do, the Jaguar seems to do some things better, and I have always felt it was ahead of the 3do, but again, just a BS opinion.  

[sd32]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Of course I have. However, Native demo is not a full game and there's been considerable speculation whether or not it could even fit in memory if they did try to finish it. I believe even the developers themselves said they hit a roadblock they couldn't surmount. But yes, if Native demo could have been a finished game, it would have certainly been extremely impressive and would have showed off the potential of the Jaguar and Jaguar CD nicely. It definitely looked next gen for the time and wouldn't be in the same grey area in terms of casual impressiveness that I feel Defender 2000 is. Of course, that's just my opinion. It's clear that some people here think that Defender 2000 has quite a bit going for it that I just can't grok.

On a recent tread, Duranik confirmed that there was a lot they could do to further optimize Native, and thus add sound and everything needed to turn it into a complete game.

[sd32]

About Defender 2000, isn’t it running at only 30 fps? I think Minter mentioned it on an interview. It’s nice, but didn’t blow me away...maybe because I didn’t like the artwork 

[eightbit]

Admittedly I have not read through the entire thread of comments, but I will say if it has not been mentioned already that Zero 5 has VERY impressive 3D. I am still impressed by this game today. It to be was a window as to what the Jag was really capable of.

[phoenixdownita]

OK I'll play along

 

Zero 5 Jag (1997)

 

(note it is mostly flat shaded, very sparse use of textures, I can't quite tell if there's any Gourad shading going on)

 

DarXide 32x (1995)

 

 

(yup it stutters and begs for mercy but it is fully textured)

 

Don't get me wrong the Jag was a step-up compared to MD/SNES, wrt to PS1/Sat thanks but no thanks.

It really would have deserved a better/bigger library but I think even the 3DO was "a little ahead"

 

NFS 3DO (1994)

 

 

 

and even the 3DO Road Rush "it's a pipe version" (1994) is kind of impressive:

 

 

So yeah Zero 5 shows the Jag coulda/woulda/shoulda but just didnta ... 

 

of course the 3DO was way overpriced but with the PS1/Saturn just around the corner (and cheaper than the 3DO) ... the Jag was too little too late.

 

It could have mopped the floor wrt MD/SNES and also CD32/FM-Towns-Marty ... likely better than "der kludge" MD+32x but ... again too little too late.

 

Just remember Jag launch price 249US$, PS1 launch price 299US$ .... granted had the likes of Zero5, AVP, SkyHammer come around launch or close to it, the Jag could have put up a fight.

 

Skyhammer Jag (2000 release):

 

 

but then again Stellar Assault SS (1998)

 

 

successor of Stellar Assault 32x (1995 release)

 

 

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, phoenixdownita said:

OK I'll play along

 

Zero 5 (1997 release)

 

 

DarXide 32x (1995)

 

 

(yup it stutters and begs for mercy but it is fully textured)

 

Don't get me wrong the Jag was a step-up compared to MD/SNES, wrt to PS1/Sat thanks but no thanks.

It really would have deserved a better/bigger library but I think even the 3DO was "a little ahead"

 

NFS (3DO 1994)

 

 

 

and even the 3DO Road Rush "tube version" (1994) is kind of impressive:

 

 

So yeah Zero 5 shows the Jag coulda/woulda/shoulda but just didnta ... 

 

of course the 3DO was way overprices but with the PS1/Saturn just around the corner ... the Jag was too little too late.

 

It could have mopped the floor wrt MD/SNES and also CD32/FM-Towns-Marty ... likely better than "der ludge" MD+32x but ... again too little too late.

I think this thread started with  Iron Soldier 2 being a showcase for the Jaguar, not  Zero 5   

For texture mapping, there are probably better examples than Zero5: Skyhammer, AvP, Doom, HoverStrike CD...

However, compared to Darxcide it does rather well, higher polycounts and a much better frame rate. Both games are not rendering any landscape, so a fully texture mapped game is feasible to achieve, e.g. Space War 2000 demo is flying with the Hover Strike engine.

 

Road Rash looks like pseudo 3D with all objects being sprites, it is quite simple and strictly on rails. I'm more impressed with NFS. But with racing games, I guess you can optimize with a lot of tricks, e.g. the camera in both games never rotates, the player moves only left and right. 

 

Maybe this one gives you an idea:

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by agradeneu

[Lost Dragon]

18 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Yeah, that's part of the problem, right? Taking Primal Rage, it's better than some contemporary ports, but worse than others, and certainly wasn't programmed in a way that we can necessarily say they took full advantage of the Jaguar's capabilities (presumably - I don't know if they ran into RAM issues or something). Taking Rayman, it certainly was designed with the Jaguar in mind and is superb, but were the other ports necessarily optimized? As ports of a straight 2D game that already looked great, probably not.

 

What I'd prefer is again to instead avoid ports or conversions and go with straight up games that showcased the platform's strengths. We can point to such games on many other platforms, but because of the Jaguar's meager contemporary library, it really didn't have that chance, even with 2D stuff, which it arguably should have had (and we know why it didn't, partially, because of the corporate mandates/philosophy).

I did reach out to a few from Probe who worked on Jaguar CD Primal Rage, some years ago, to try and see if it was as i suspected simply yet another contractual obligation title which was done as quickly as possible and then the team assigned to projects on the commercially viable platforms, but I never had any replies. 

 

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