1200xl with RamboXL and APE WarpOS 32-in-1 issues.

[leech]

I managed to install the 32-in-1 last night, but then holding select didn't boot into the OS menu right away, I have to  hold it down then hit reset, which then shows some garbage on the screen and then usually will load (though I've had it lock up before loading the whole thing.)  Carts seem to sort of work, though I plugged in the Mario Bros XE version and it had a large graphical glitch in the center of the screen.

 

Loaded up the XL Rev C and get into the self-test, and it shows most of the RAM being bad.  Pretty sure before I did this mod, the ram test would pass just fine.

Is there a conflict between the RamboXL board and the 32-in-1?  I mean that's the reason I went this route instead of just putting a U1MB into this machine. 

 

I suppose I can undo the mod, and then test the memory again.

[Gunstar]

Maybe some of your ram or ram support chips or the Rambo itself came loose in their sockets? I've used Rambo and 32-in-1 in a couple of my 1200XL's for years without any issue. One has the original Rambo XL and the other has the clone Atarimax sold/sells. Though last year I did revert one of the Rambo 1200Xl's back to stock 64K, since I gave it a PBI port and use Syscheck XL 2 with it's 512K instead now.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Gunstar

[leech]

16 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Maybe some of your ram or ram support chips or the Rambo itself came loose in their sockets? I've used Rambo and 32-in-1 in a couple of my 1200XL's for years without any issue. One has the original Rambo XL and the other has the clone Atarimax sold/sells. Though last year I did revert one of the Rambo 1200Xl's back to stock 64K, since I gave it a PBI port and use Syscheck XL 2 with it's 512K instead now.

I'll give that a shot.  Was even thinking that maybe I should re-seat all the chips.  When I first got this 1200xl, there was a switch connected to the MMU.  No idea what it did.  So it's now the switch that flips between composite / s-video for the Super Video 2.1 mod.  So I kind of wonder if it already had an MMU mod made, but I've never been able to figure out what that came from (doesn't look like the RamboXL had anything to do with it). 

[leech]

The other issue I noticed was that hitting keys on the keyboard would cause it to reboot.  So that's fun.  I need to do further testing there.

[Gunstar]

@leechI don't know what the switch would have been for, the Rambo doesn't need it, and of course the 32-in-1 kit for the 1200XL (assuming you ordered the one for the 1200XL) comes with the MMU from the 600/800XL's to handle the 28-pin OS board, and it doesn't require a MMU switch either. But, the issue could be the MMU IF you didn't order the kit from Atarimax that comes with the proper MMU, then the 32-in-1 won't work right, if at all; I never tried, but the 1200XL's original MMU must be replaced as far as I know for the 32-in-1 to work right or at all. And the original MMU, if it works at all with the 32-in-1, would be the main culprit for memory issues with the 32-in-1 installed, IMHO.

 

But using the switch for the SV 2.1 is a good idea. I removed my RF modulators in my 1200XL's, so I used the RF channel selector switch for my composite on/off with SV 2,1. Good choice of upgrades for the 1200XL, IMHO.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Gunstar

[leech]

6 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

@leechI don't know what the switch would have been for, the Rambo doesn't need it, and of course the 32-in-1 kit for the 1200XL (assuming you ordered the one for the 1200XL) comes with the MMU from the 600/800XL's to handle the 28-pin OS board, and it doesn't require a MMU switch either. But, the issue could be the MMU IF you didn't order the kit from Atarimax that comes with the proper MMU, then the 32-in-1 won't work right, if at all; I never tried, but the 1200XL's original MMU must be replaced as far as I know for the 32-in-1 to work right or at all. And the original MMU, if it works at all with the 32-in-1, would be the main culprit for memory issues with the 32-in-1 installed, IMHO.

 

But using the switch for the SV 2.1 is a good idea. I removed my RF modulators in my 1200XL's, so I used the RF channel selector switch for my composite on/off with SV 2,1. Good choice of upgrades for the 1200XL, IMHO.

Yeah I did order the 1200xl one and replaced the MMU with the one that came with t he kit.  I still remember the pain of having to squeeze in the pins to get it into the socket!  BASIC chip was even more annoying (also not sure why the window is left bare there). 

 

I actually saw your post before about using the RF channel switch to flip between the S-Video / Composite out.  This machine already had a toggle switch in it and a hole drilled, so figured why not use that.  I still have no idea what mod that was originally for.  As the switch didn't seem to do anything that I could see.  Maybe I should see about dumping that MMU and see if there is anything different about it...  Ultimately I wanted the Rev5/11 in the 1200 as I understand that's one of the most compatible operating systems for the A8.

[Gunstar]

43 minutes ago, leech said:

Yeah I did order the 1200xl one and replaced the MMU with the one that came with t he kit.  I still remember the pain of having to squeeze in the pins to get it into the socket!  BASIC chip was even more annoying (also not sure why the window is left bare there). 

 

I actually saw your post before about using the RF channel switch to flip between the S-Video / Composite out.  This machine already had a toggle switch in it and a hole drilled, so figured why not use that.  I still have no idea what mod that was originally for.  As the switch didn't seem to do anything that I could see.  Maybe I should see about dumping that MMU and see if there is anything different about it...  Ultimately I wanted the Rev5/11 in the 1200 as I understand that's one of the most compatible operating systems for the A8.

Yeah, I taped over my BASIC eprom's window with electric tape. I would have used that switch too, and found something else for the RF switch. Yes, the Rev5/11 is the most compatible with other XL/XE's, but I don't know if it's more or less compatible than later XL/XE OS's. I never had an issue with my original 1200XL OS as far as compatibility and have ranted about what all the fuss with it's so-called "incompatibilities" in the past. I use the Warp+ OS 99% of the time on my 32-in-1's, it's fully compatible with 800 OS B through the last XE's from what I can tell, and give upgraded drives ultra speed loading without special DOS's. But that more compatible 1200XL REV. 5/11 is there to use, and the rainbow Atari splash screens are the Bee's knees.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Gunstar

[leech]

5 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Yeah, I taped over my BASIC eprom's window with electric tape. I would have used that switch too, and found something else for the RF switch. Yes, the Rev5/11 is the most compatible with other XL/XE's, but I don't know if it's more or less compatible than later XL/XE OS's. I never had an issue with my original 1200XL OS as far as compatibility and have ranted about what all the fuss with it's so-called "incompatibilities" in the past. I use the Warp+ OS 99% of the time on my 32-in-1's, it's fully compatible with 800 OS B through the last XE's from what I can tell, and give upgraded drives ultra speed loading without special DOS's. But that more compatible 1200XL REV. 5/11 is there to use, and the rainbow Atari splash screens are the Bee's knees.

Ha, it was the splash part I noticed first when I had an issue, as it'd cycle once, then lock up at an orange color, and I was most upset by that!  (I wanted to see the giant R of the later revision, and sure enough it does come up, but then freezes).  I'll attach a video when I get the time to make one.  The system definitely is having issues.  Though maybe it'll be like my 800 with the Incognito / SCCC, where I stuffed it in a box for a month, then it magically worked...

[Gunstar]

I also recommend Qmeg 4 OS, (though Qmeg 3 is what you get on the pre-flashed chip), And the latest version of MyBIOS OS (Atarimax) is damn good too.  But I access those through external cart and PBI options, like MyIDE II and Syscheck 2.0, as I haven't bothered to reprogram my 32-in-1 with them on it since I do have those options at hand without doing a thing.

[StickJock]

3 hours ago, leech said:

BASIC chip was even more annoying (also not sure why the window is left bare there). 

 

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

Yeah, I taped over my BASIC eprom's window with electric tape.

 

Back in 1990, my manager told me about the time that they had some flaky behavior with the system that they were working on, but every time they leaned over the board to examine it, the flaky behavior cleared up and it began operating properly.  But when they backed off of it, it messed up again.  Eventually, they realized that it was the office lighting affecting the EPROMs!  Since they were iterating so fast, they didn't bother to cover the EPROM windows, and the florescent lighting was causing the EPROMs to misbehave.  After that, they always covered the windows when they took them out of the UV eraser.

 

[leech]

1 hour ago, StickJock said:

 

 

Back in 1990, my manager told me about the time that they had some flaky behavior with the system that they were working on, but every time they leaned over the board to examine it, the flaky behavior cleared up and it began operating properly.  But when they backed off of it, it messed up again.  Eventually, they realized that it was the office lighting affecting the EPROMs!  Since they were iterating so fast, they didn't bother to cover the EPROM windows, and the florescent lighting was causing the EPROMs to misbehave.  After that, they always covered the windows when they took them out of the UV eraser.

 

Ha, that is hilarious.  Unfortunately it bwhaved that way after I put it all together.  but for sure am going to tape that up.  Just thought it odd it was not covered from them.  The Amiga Kickstarts that I have burned, I would always cover up the windows.

Board flex is another thing that causes 'fun' behavior.

[leech]

Was going to tape up the eeprom, could I find my tape?  No of course not...

Found the alternative, but couldn't even find the labels I had bought for this specific purpose... until after I covered it up...

 

Got into the self test though and it just thinks most of the RAM banks are bad, so I ordered 8 HM50256P-15 chops off if eBay.  Was going to order some Hitachi brand ones, but inevitably the guy only had 7 of them....

[BillC]

4 hours ago, leech said:

Was going to tape up the eeprom, could I find my tape?  No of course not...

Found the alternative, but couldn't even find the labels I had bought for this specific purpose... until after I covered it up...

 

Got into the self test though and it just thinks most of the RAM banks are bad, so I ordered 8 HM50256P-15 chops off if eBay.  Was going to order some Hitachi brand ones, but inevitably the guy only had 7 of them....

Probably don't even need 7, I have a 130XE that showed 44 out of 48 blocks red in the OS test, my SYSCHECK only detected 2 chips as faulty.

[+DrVenkman]

Are you sure the RAM is even bad? A screwed up MMU or MMU socket could give you any number of oddball issues that look like what you see in the memory test. 

[+hloberg]

around 2005 I purchased a 1200xl and with the 32in1 rom installed from Atarimax. from the beginning the computer had similar problems that you are experiencing. it would lock up on the menu at random points. I worked with Steve? of Atarimax for over 2 months (swapped several 32in1 chips out) but never got it working. He eventually gave me my money back and we concluded that some 1200xl, for whatever reason won't work with Atarimax 32in1 rom chip.  by the way, this one did not have a memory expansion installed. except for the 32in1 it was plain jane.

[leech]

2 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

Are you sure the RAM is even bad? A screwed up MMU or MMU socket could give you any number of oddball issues that look like what you see in the memory test. 

Quite possible.  What is different in the normal MMU vs the Atarimax one?

[leech]

1 hour ago, hloberg said:

around 2005 I purchased a 1200xl and with the 32in1 rom installed from Atarimax. from the beginning the computer had similar problems that you are experiencing. it would lock up on the menu at random points. I worked with Steve? of Atarimax for over 2 months (swapped several 32in1 chips out) but never got it working. He eventually gave me my money back and we concluded that some 1200xl, for whatever reason won't work with Atarimax 32in1 rom chip.  by the way, this one did not have a memory expansion installed. except for the 32in1 it was plain jane.

Interesting.  Yeah, this one had the RamboXL, already had the jumper wire for the 5v SIO fix, and some toggle switch connected to the MMU, that no one seems to know what it does... and then I did the SuperVideo 2.1 mod to it.

 

It was all working until I added the 32-in-1.  That is why I was asking about dumping the MMU chip to see what differences there are.

[+DrVenkman]

3 minutes ago, leech said:

Quite possible.  What is different in the normal MMU vs the Atarimax one?

I have no idea - I don't have any experience with an AtariMax 32-in-1. I just have a general familiarity with the A8 memory access design.

[leech]

Here are images of how it was before.

(Of note when looking back all the way into March, it is amazing how many pictures I take of old computer hardware!)

[+hloberg]

47 minutes ago, leech said:

Interesting.  Yeah, this one had the RamboXL, already had the jumper wire for the 5v SIO fix, and some toggle switch connected to the MMU, that no one seems to know what it does... and then I did the SuperVideo 2.1 mod to it.

 

It was all working until I added the 32-in-1.  That is why I was asking about dumping the MMU chip to see what differences there are.

what's also interesting is I sent that 1200xl back and got a 800xl and that same chip worked fine in it. Then several years later I got another 800xl, a very early model, and the 32in1 exhibited the same problems that the 1200xl did and never worked in that 800xl. no idea.

[Gunstar]

The MMU that comes with the 32-in-1 1200XL version kit is the same type that is used in 600/800XL's and XE's. The original MMU in the 1200XL is made to work with an OS on 2 24-pin 8K roms, and no BASIC and doesn't work with 28-pin 16K roms there, it as simple as that, as well as the need to change the jumpers too. The entire upgrade is the same basic upgrade as @bobwoolley's 1200XL OS&Basic upgrade, the prelude to the PBI upgrade. Except you plug the 32-in-1 board in the OS socket instead of a chip and there are a few more wires to run.

 

Before I added the PBI to my 1200XL, for several years I had the 32-in-1 upgrade with XL/XE MMU, Rambo upgrade, Dropcheck's GTIA PAL board with 50Hz crystal and PAL Antic, Pokey stereo piggy-back style, Dropcheck's Super SpartaDOS X 4.8 cartridge with MyIDE II piggy-backed on it, and it all worked together perfectly. I then double the Rambo upgrade to 512K by adding piggy-backed dram, and everything worked that way as well, for a time, then I had dram issues because the keyboard would press against them. So I added a PBI, reverted my memory to stock 64K and added a Syscheck 2 board on the PBI, and everything works fine together that way too, except when I run Syscheck diagnostic OS, it always says the 32-in-1 is bad, but it;s not.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Gunstar

[+DrVenkman]

14 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

The MMU that comes with the 32-in-1 1200XL version kit is the same type that is used in 600/800XL's and XE's. The original MMU in the 1200XL is made to work with an OS on 2 24-pin 8K roms, and no BASIC and doesn't work with 28-pin 16K roms there, it as simple as that, as well as the need to change the jumpers too. The entire upgrade is the same basic upgrade as @bobwoolley's 1200XL OS&Basic upgrade, the prelude to the PBI upgrade. Except you plug the 32-in-1 board in the OS socket instead of a chip and there are a few more wires to run.

So basically he needs to do Bob Woolley’s classic 1200XL one-chip OS mod, the same thing someone should do to install a U1MB in a 1200XL. Retrobits.net seems to be down tonight, but Google’s cache to the rescue: 

 

All of the 1200XL main boards have 28 pin sites for the ROMs. All you need to do is pull the 24 pin socket at U13 and solder in a 28 pin unit. One more address line (A13) is needed, so remove the W6 jumper and solder a wire from pin 23 of the CPU chip (U21) to the top pad of W6. Now, plug the 800XL OS ROM into U13. The 16K ROM select is just as simple. Take a look inside your 1200XL. See the chip that has 20 pins (U14)? That is your MMU. It is the main difference between a 1200XL and an 800XL. Same number of little pins, same number of inputs and outputs ..... But the 800XL IC has the 16K select for the OS ROM. So, lets jump right in and swap the MMU with the 800XL part (CO61618). Fits just fine, doesn't it? Pull out all the jumpers except W11, W12 and W9 and you have a ROM select line that will select the address range from $C000 to $FFFF in a single ROM, like the 800XL.

 

[Gunstar]

3 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

So basically he needs to do Bob Woolley’s classic 1200XL one-chip OS mod, the same thing someone should do to install a U1MB in a 1200XL. Retrobits.net seems to be down tonight, but Google’s cache to the rescue: 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but the 32-in-1 installation instructions for the 1200XL include that classic one-chip upgrade as part of the over-all 32-in-1 upgrade, if he used those instructions from Atarimax to install it in the 1200XL, then he has already done the classic on-chip OS upgrade.

[leech]

23 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Yes, but the 32-in-1 installation instructions for the 1200XL include that classic one-chip upgrade as part of the over-all 32-in-1 upgrade, if he used those instructions from Atarimax to install it in the 1200XL, then he has already done the classic on-chip OS upgrade.

I did indeed use the Atarimax install instructions for the 1200xl.  FJC has a video for installing it as well, but it is an older one before he had his groove on (older hardware, the frame rate of the video was choppy, and he didn't have all the equipment to do the right angles and show the work as his more recent and excellent videos do.  So I mostly just had the sound on hearing his comments while I did the soldering and following the instructions.  But I have double and triple checked all the connections.   Outside of a bad MMU, or memory or as noted a simply incompatible something.. not sure what else I can try.

At least it isn't a terrible one to reverse (the only thing really removed is the W6 jumper.  Though I broke one of them when I was moving w7-9 to w11-13, so I ordered some spares... so many resistors I now have due to these fun projects!)

[+DrVenkman]

8 hours ago, leech said:

At least it isn't a terrible one to reverse (the only thing really removed is the W6 jumper.  Though I broke one of them when I was moving w7-9 to w11-13, so I ordered some spares...

They’re really just wires in the form of a discrete component. You could use cut off component legs or even small wires.