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leech

1200xl with RamboXL and APE WarpOS 32-in-1 issues.

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10 hours ago, leech said:

FJC has a video for installing it as well, but it is an older one before he had his groove on

Hehe... before I stopped installing the damn things altogether. :)

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2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Hehe... before I stopped installing the damn things altogether. :)

Ha, yeah legit that the only reason I am not doing the U1MB on this machine is because it already has the Rambo.

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1 hour ago, leech said:

Ha, yeah legit that the only reason I am not doing the U1MB on this machine is because it already has the Rambo.

@Dropcheck also has alternative multi-OS boards for sale at her store Bits of the Past. She has a 3-in-1 ramrod and a 4-in-1 board also. Neither upgrade comes with the needed roms though, and the 4-in-1 has to be eprom. The Ramrod has spots for 3 roms, so originals can be used or eproms. Maybe save the 32-in-1 for another machine.

 

I recently bought 2 of the 4-in-1 boards from her. I'm actually removing my 32-in-1 from my 1200XL with the PBI, and replacing it with a 4-in-1 eprom I'll burn myself. The second one I'm installing in a friend's 800XL and the 32-in-1, which is still working fine, will be going into another friends 1200XL without a PBI. I'm only doing this since I do have the Syscheck 2 PBI board with 4 OS rom slots, and MyIDE II with MyBIOS, I think 9 OS choices will be enough (actually I will have 13 choices because I plan on modifying the 4-in-1 into and 8-in-1 with a piggy-backed eprom), and my friend really wants a 32-in-1 for his 1200XL OS. Dropcheck's boards are cheaper than any other OS upgrade.

 

https://www.bitsofthepast.com/?cat=28

 

 

Edited by Gunstar

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I do have a secondary 1200xl that is mysteriously missing all the screws.  Though I did see someone upgrade the RamboXL to 512k, so maybe those extra drams won't go to waste (assuming the ram chips aren't bad that I have now). 

I mean I really just wanted the Rev11 OS, can't it ever be simple?  :P

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At this point, it can be that simple if you just burn or have someone burn a Rev. 11 OS for you on a 27128 eprom to put in the socket where the 32-in-1 rests. The only caveat might be BASIC, as I've no idea if Rev. 11 supports a built-in BASIC, there may be an issue with holding down OPTION to bypass it. But you can always just remove the BASIC rom also, and still use a cartridge Basic.

 

I would offer to do it for you myself, for free, but currently my Atari's are all down for upgrades and/or repairs and I use Dropcheck's reimaged Ralf David Atari XL/XE eprom burner which can burn 2732-27512 (4k-64K). So no Atari to hook the burner upto atm. I may have one up and running soon though

Edited by Gunstar

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1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

At this point, it can be that simple if you just burn or have someone burn a Rev. 11 OS for you on a 27128 eprom to put in the socket where the 32-in-1 rests. The only caveat might be BASIC, as I've no idea if Rev. 11 supports a built-in BASIC, there may be an issue with holding down OPTION to bypass it. But you can always just remove the BASIC rom also, and still use a cartridge Basic.

 

I would offer to do it for you myself, for free, but currently my Atari's are all down for upgrades and/or repairs and I use Dropcheck's reimaged Ralf David Atari XL/XE eprom burner which can burn 2732-27512 (4k-64K). So no Atari to hook the burner upto atm. I may have one up and running soon though

No worries, I just needed the EEPROM type, I have all the stuff to program them.

34 minutes ago, Nezgar said:

1200XL Rev 11 OS does not support internal BASIC. Or PBI. You need to upgrade to the rev 1/2/3 OS from the later XL/XE's for that.

 

PM me if you need an EPROM programmed. I also have some of these 4xOS boards built and on hand if interested: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/287179-diy-4xos-switch/?do=findComment&comment=4502419

 

Yeah, I have BASIC carts if needed.  So no wirries about that, I will order some EEPROMS and have a play.  Maybe I will end up with a 1200xl with 512kb of RAM and Rev 11 OS.  Would have been nice if this had worked out though so I had more oprions for testing in a single machine.

Has anyone figured out if it was a specific revision that has this issue with the 32-in-1?

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For the record, this 1200xl's motherboard has a model / revision on the bottom that says C060585 Rev A.

The other 1200xl (I assume that is completely unmodified, as it doesn't even have the 5v SIO mod) says C060585 Rev 13A.

 

Might help future modders for Steve to put a note about incompatible motherboards.

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9 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

They’re really just wires in the form of a discrete component. You could use cut off component legs or even small wires. 

Yeah, but they don't look as cool :P  Actually according to my multimeter they do have a tiny bit of resistance.  Like .03?  I got some blue ones so replaced it with that.

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3 hours ago, leech said:

Actually according to my multimeter they do have a tiny bit of resistance.  Like .03? 

Measure some wire with your meter in resistance mode (not continuity mode).

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50 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Measure some wire with your meter in resistance mode (not continuity mode).

This multimeter is odd (Tsinde 18 Z-III)  On the continuity test, even just touching the pins together, I'm getting 0.15-0.18.  It's a might touchy. 

20200814_190351.jpg

Edited by leech

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5 minutes ago, leech said:

This multimeter is odd (Tsinde 18 Z-III)  On the continuity test, even just touching the pins together, I'm getting 0.15-0.18.  It's a might touchy. 

20200814_190351.jpg

The point is - every wire has some nominal resistance. The "0 ohm resistors" or "1 ohm resistors" you see people using as jumpers - including by the factory on 1200XL's - are just wires in a fancy package. 

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Just now, DrVenkman said:

The point is - every wire has some nominal resistance. The "0 ohm resistors" or "1 ohm resistors" you see people using as jumpers - including by the factory on 1200XL's - are just wires in a fancy package. 

Yeah, I knew that.  That's why my comment of 'but they look cooler' stands :)  They were referred to as jumpers in the instructions, and that's what I took them as.

 

Funny that this 1200xl (that has the SIO 5v fix) actually looks like it was there from factory, but is indeed just one of the slightly thicker wires than say capacitors use bridging the two pins.  On the 1200xl I have that does not support voltage out of the SIO ports (so the SDrive-Max does not work) has a full on resistor there.

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On 8/14/2020 at 10:32 AM, Gunstar said:

The only caveat might be BASIC, as I've no idea if Rev. 11 supports a built-in BASIC, there may be an issue with holding down OPTION to bypass it. But you can always just remove the BASIC rom also, and still use a cartridge Basic.

I have an 800XL with a Newell 1MB RAM upgrade which uses the BASIC MMU signal for bank-switching RAM, it has a toggle switch added to control BASIC on/off.

So even if Rev. 11 OS is unable to control BASIC switching it can still be done manually.

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1 minute ago, BillC said:

I have an 800XL with a Newell 1MB RAM upgrade which uses the BASIC MMU signal for bank-switching RAM, it has a toggle switch added to control BASIC on/off.

So even if Rev. 11 OS is unable to control BASIC switching it can still be done manually.

Huh, is that switch connected to the last two pins on the bottom row of the MMU?  That's where it was on my 1200XL. 

I'm guessing when I swap in Rev 11, am I going to need to upgrade both ROM chips?

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1 hour ago, leech said:

Huh, is that switch connected to the last two pins on the bottom row of the MMU?  That's where it was on my 1200XL. 

I'm guessing when I swap in Rev 11, am I going to need to upgrade both ROM chips?

I don't remember where the switch is connected, the installation was done about 30 years ago.

 

The original 24-pin OS chips are 8KB mask ROM(2364 IIRC), original Rev. 11 ROM chips can be used in both OS sockets. If you plan on replacing the OS using EPROMs it is much easier to use a single 16KB 27128 in one socket, modifying the PCB as needed, since compatible EPROM replacements for the 24-pin 8KB ROM are harder to find and many modern programmers are incapable of writing to them.

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1 hour ago, BillC said:

I don't remember where the switch is connected, the installation was done about 30 years ago.

 

The original 24-pin OS chips are 8KB mask ROM(2364 IIRC), original Rev. 11 ROM chips can be used in both OS sockets. If you plan on replacing the OS using EPROMs it is much easier to use a single 16KB 27128 in one socket, modifying the PCB as needed, since compatible EPROM replacements for the 24-pin 8KB ROM are harder to find and many modern programmers are incapable of writing to them.

And that would be the jumpers being moved from w7-9 to w11-13, correct?

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5 hours ago, BillC said:

I don't remember where the switch is connected, the installation was done about 30 years ago.

 

The original 24-pin OS chips are 8KB mask ROM(2364 IIRC), original Rev. 11 ROM chips can be used in both OS sockets. If you plan on replacing the OS using EPROMs it is much easier to use a single 16KB 27128 in one socket, modifying the PCB as needed, since compatible EPROM replacements for the 24-pin 8KB ROM are harder to find and many modern programmers are incapable of writing to them.

A pair of 27C64’s work fine, one for for Hi half of the OS ROM address space, one for the Lo. Swap a couple jumpers around and that’s all you need to do. I did it myself a few weeks ago.

 

 

D2FD1F4D-69CF-4613-A977-85EE1D380FE9.jpeg

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On 8/14/2020 at 2:11 PM, leech said:

Maybe I will end up with a 1200xl with 512kb of RAM and Rev 11 OS. 

Just a word of warning about the Rambo 512K upgrade in a 1200XL; the usual method is piggy-backing more dram memory on the 8 dram's of 256K, and there is very little head room under the keyboard, especially toward the front of the board where the dram memory sockets are located. I did this upgrade to my 1200XL originally, but over time I started having stability issues and crashes when I would type on the keyboard. I thought about designing my own 2x8 row board that would fit there for the dram, or removing the sockets and having piggy-backed dram soldered to the mobo, would fit that way also. Maybe if you leave no space between the piggy-backed chips in the sockets it would work, but you might have issues develop from overheating, which I didn't want to chance. It's a perfectly simple and logical solution if using dram memory, for other XL/XE machines where there is more head-room, a bit more involved to make sure it good long-term on a 1200XL.
 

In the end I added a PBI instead, reverted to 64K internally and use the 512K extended memory of the Syscheck 2 board. @tf_hh who sells the syscheck 2 boards also sells internal 512K sram boards that might be an easier option for you. Though I do know how you feel about already having the dram and Rambo and not want it to go unused, I'm exactly the same way. Or in the past I just didn't have the money to buy an alternative and what I had on hand worked perfectly fine, so I make do. My Rambo is going into another 1200XL, just like the 32-in-1, though it will only be 256K and I have enough dram left over for two more Rambo's, it's just back-up replacements for the Rambo 256K dram. Switching to tf_hh sram board would probably also allow you to use the 32-in-1 in the current 1200XL, if you really think the Rambo and 32-in-1 are incompatible in your machine. I know the external 512K Sram gets along with my 32-in-1, so I would imagine the internal version would too. Though my Rambo got along with it fine too, and I believe @tf_hh sram boards are Rambo compatible though, so...

Edited by Gunstar
typo edit
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5 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

A pair of 27C64’s work fine, one for for Hi half of the OS ROM address space, one for the Lo. Swap a couple jumpers around and that’s all you need to do. I did it myself a few weeks ago.

 

 

D2FD1F4D-69CF-4613-A977-85EE1D380FE9.jpeg

Huh, so you left W6 off, and moved the jumpers to the w11-13 (though looks like you have resisters in w12 and 113.

 

4 hours ago, Gunstar said:

Just a word of warning about the Rambo 512K upgrade in a 1200XL; the usual method is piggy-backing more dram memory on the 8 dram's of 256K, and there is very little head room under the keyboard, especially toward the front of the board where the dram memory sockets are located. I did this upgrade to my 1200XL originally, but over time I started having stability issues and crashes when I would type on the keyboard. I thought about designing my own 2x8 row board that would fit there for the dram, or removing the sockets and having piggy-backed dram soldered to the mobo, would fit that way also. Maybe if you leave no space between the piggy-backed chips in the sockets it would work, but you might have issues develop from overheating, which I didn't want to chance. It's a perfectly simple and logical solution if using dram memory, for other XL/XE machines where there is more head-room, a bit more involved to make sure it good long-term on a 1200XL.
 

In the end I added a PBI instead, reverted to 64K internally and use the 512K extended memory of the Syscheck 2 board. @tf_hh who sells the syscheck 2 boards also sells internal 512K sram boards that might be an easier option for you. Though I do know how you feel about already having the dram and Rambo and not want it to go unused, I'm exactly the same way. Or in the past I just didn't have the money to buy an alternative and what I had on hand worked perfectly fine, so I make do. My Rambo is going into another 1200XL, just like the 32-in-1, though it will only be 256K and I have enough dram left over for two more Rambo's, it's just back-up replacements for the Rambo 256K dram. Switching to tf_hh sram board would probably also allow you to use the 32-in-1 in the current 1200XL, if you really think the Rambo and 32-in-1 are incompatible in your machine. I know the external 512K Sram gets along with my 32-in-1, so I would imagine the internal version would too. Though my Rambo got along with it fine too, and I believe @tf_hh sram boards are Rambo compatible though, so...

Yeah, I was thinking about the pickyback... anyone know if there are dram chips that are 512k instead?  Couldn't you t hen just swap out the chips?

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40 minutes ago, leech said:

Huh, so you left W6 off, and moved the jumpers to the w11-13 (though looks like you have resisters in w12 and 113.

If I wanted to go to a single 16K ROM for - for example - an 800XL OS conversion, I'd have removed W6 and run a jumper wire from SALLY to W6, per Bob's instructions at Retrobits.net.  Since all I was doing was replacing the previously-installed rev 10 OS mask ROMs with EPROMs, this is all that was required. 

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5 hours ago, leech said:

Huh, so you left W6 off, and moved the jumpers to the w11-13 (though looks like you have resisters in w12 and 113.

 

Yeah, I was thinking about the pickyback... anyone know if there are dram chips that are 512k instead?  Couldn't you t hen just swap out the chips?

I have no idea if there are pin-compatible 512K dram or not, even on simm boards I have from PC's or ST's that were 1, 2, 4 megs, they were still using 256K drams. I still have them as a back-up source of yet more Rambo memory, but they have to be desoldered and I still have plenty of loose ones. I'd of thought they would have gone with 512K dram on those if they existed. But another solution might be if there are pin-compatible surface mount 256K drams and make piggy-back board(s) for a lower profile.

 

necessity is the mother of invention, so I'm sure you can find a way to use what you have, if you have the will.

Edited by Gunstar

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I'll just throw it out there - I'd probably recommend no more than 256 (or 320) K of RAM in a 32-in-1 OS machine. In my machine with an internal 512K tf_hh module, when using it with the SDX Ramdisk, on rare occasions the bank switching that shares the self-test but that also shares the 32-in-1 signalling line on the PIA causes the 32-in-1 to switch OS's and reset the machine. Very strange... but I guess sometimes it erroneously wakes up on a "pattern" of signals on the line the 32-in-1 is monitoring, caused by ramdisk bank switching...

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2 minutes ago, Nezgar said:

I'll just throw it out there - I'd probably recommend no more than 256 (or 320) K of RAM in a 32-in-1 OS machine. In my machine with an internal 512K tf_hh module, when using it with the SDX Ramdisk, on rare occasions the bank switching that shares the self-test but that also shares the 32-in-1 signalling line on the PIA causes the 32-in-1 to switch OS's and reset the machine. Very strange... but I guess sometimes it erroneously wakes up on a "pattern" of signals on the line the 32-in-1 is monitoring, caused by ramdisk bank switching...

Odd.  To be fair, I can't readily think of anything that needs more than 256kb of ram on an 8bit anyhow.  Very little even needs that much.

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18 minutes ago, leech said:

Odd.  To be fair, I can't readily think of anything that needs more than 256kb of ram on an 8bit anyhow.  Very little even needs that much.

Quite a few demos, but other than that, there is Yie Ar Kung Fu and Bomjack file versions. There are a couple XEGS cart titles that the .xex versions of require 320K, instead of 256K, because they have enhancements; these include Commando+ and Mean 18+. The Last Word processor can use upto 320K. It can be utilized with SpartaDOS in a number of ways. But strictly speaking, you are right, if you are mainly going to be using the machine to play games, there are other versions and other media options more most of it, Yie Ar and Bomjack will be the hardest to obtain cartridges though, and no current multi-cart format exists for the Atari 8-bit that can handle the cartridge type those two use.

Edited by Gunstar

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