How difficult is it to add music to existing 7800 games?

[+Pac-Lander]

I'm a huge fan of the homebrew library on the 7800, and was just wondering what would go into ADDING some simple background music to existing 7800 games (that may not have any bg music, for example, not to replace music).

 

Is it crazy difficult? It is even possible?

 

Just looking for a general idea, as I am not familiar at all. 

 

Sincere thanks!

[Greg2600]

I have no idea, but I'd assume you mean using FM synthesis on like the XM?

[+Pac-Lander]

2 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

I have no idea, but I'd assume you mean using FM synthesis on like the XM?

Maybe? I guess the question is - since new homebrew games can be programmed for the 7800, since THAT is possible, would it be possible to use source code from existing games to ADD stuff to, and then re-release? The "stuff" I have in mind is audio only, primarily background music, but I suppose also sound fx? Without changing existing gameplay mind you.

 

I just feel that one of the main things was unfortunately missing from a lot of 7800 games that would have made them truly great is background music. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by aaron1677

[Greg2600]

What you're imagining has been done for other systems, particularly SNES/Genesis which have flash carts that utilize FPGA's and whatnot to achieve musical improvements.  Whether that be CD grade audio or modern mp3's.  Look up MSU-1 for SD2SNES (aka FXPAK Pro), or MD+ for MegaSD, or MSU-MD for Mega Everdrive Pro.  Those all feature rom hacks which let you loop in CD quality music.  There's not as much of a reason to alter 16-bit sound effects so nobody has really bothered. 

 

Obviously there's dozens of ppl on this forum with actual 7800 programming knowledge vs. myself.  That being said, if you were to make the music work on the POKEY chip, or perhaps wait to have it run on the XM module's Yamaha 2151, I do feel many games would be extremely improved with better 8-bit music and perhaps sound effects than what was offered on the crusty TIA.

[Feralstorm]

Assuming no extra added hardware to the cartridge, and just changing the game software itself to include music, it depends.

 

It depends on how much resources are available in the cart space, and it depends on if the tightly-programmed game has enough CPU 'free time' while running to accommodate the additional music code. If it's a standard 7800 game using TIA for sound (as opposed to an added POKEY or something else) the available voices/channels are limited, so if you have sound effects as well, they probably need to be coded to override an audio channel when playing, and then resume the music.

 

So, it depends. Either way, it's more complex than "just add music".

[Greg2600]

11 hours ago, Feralstorm said:

Assuming no extra added hardware to the cartridge, and just changing the game software itself to include music, it depends.

 

It depends on how much resources are available in the cart space, and it depends on if the tightly-programmed game has enough CPU 'free time' while running to accommodate the additional music code. If it's a standard 7800 game using TIA for sound (as opposed to an added POKEY or something else) the available voices/channels are limited, so if you have sound effects as well, they probably need to be coded to override an audio channel when playing, and then resume the music.

 

So, it depends. Either way, it's more complex than "just add music".

All valid considerations.  In the case of the 16-bit systems I mentioned, obviously much more robust CPU's, and hacking the roms to include new BG music was not overly difficult.  A friend of mine with zero programming experience did an MSU-1 edit on Super Castlevania IV.  I would not expect an 8-bit system to be as trivial.

 

One of the original lures for the XM was the capacity for "upgrading" the old library both to 320 mode and with better audio.  Bob D. is already well on his way with Pac 40th, and hopefully if the darn thing ever gets out the door, more will follow.  Years ago Opcode Eduardo had demo'd a Donkey Kong XM as well.  That's why I made that suggestion, trying to do this with just the TIA is pointless. 

[carlsson]

I think "source code from existing games" is a challenging point. Usually no source code is known to exist for the older games, meaning you would have to disassemble the game, identify which code does what and then inject your own music player routine at a certain point, possibly moving other parts of the code and hope you don't break functionality. The new games being developed already take this into consideration when the game is designed, plus that programmers nowadays are more likely to keep their documented source code in digital format for alterations.

[Greg2600]

45 minutes ago, carlsson said:

I think "source code from existing games" is a challenging point. Usually no source code is known to exist for the older games, meaning you would have to disassemble the game, identify which code does what and then inject your own music player routine at a certain point, possibly moving other parts of the code and hope you don't break functionality. The new games being developed already take this into consideration when the game is designed, plus that programmers nowadays are more likely to keep their documented source code in digital format for alterations.

I thought we had the source for many of those GCC games?  With regards to the 16-bit stuff, as I said, you don't bother with the source code, because the flash cart FPGA is running a routine that essentially overlays the music.  Don't think anyone has considered that for 7800 whether XM or not, in fact I'm not sure it's been done on any 8-bit system in that same fashion.

[+Pat Brady]

There is a 7800 Hacks forum, but it’s not very active.

 

It’s interesting to see what TIA can do (and so far I am only using it in 7ix), but I don’t have much enthusiasm for redoing another game’s TIA audio in TIA. Some could maybe be improved but it’s still going to be limited. I expect more activity if XM or a POKEY-enabled flashcart become readily available.

[TailChao]

19 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

Don't think anyone has considered that for 7800 whether XM or not, in fact I'm not sure it's been done on any 8-bit system in that same fashion.

For the NES there's GTROM + GTMP3, but (off the top of my head) this isn't supported by flash cartridges yet.

 

There was some discussion of adding a new audio expansion variant to the 7800GD (not just POKEY), but that's for the future. When we designed the SOUPER + BupChip setup it was intended to simplify migration from Atari's stock mapper and dropping in audio tracks, although this requires more effort than a folder of MP3s.

 

Most of the challenge here is tied to how the audio expansion is implemented and whether it's easy to hook into the existing software.

[Zonie]

Not a big fan of background music on games myself.

It tends to get repetitive and you get sick of it, like a song getting stuck in your head.

Just crank up the stereo instead!

[Giles N]

On 8/19/2020 at 7:12 PM, TailChao said:

For the NES there's GTROM + GTMP3, but (off the top of my head) this isn't supported by flash cartridges yet.

 

There was some discussion of adding a new audio expansion variant to the 7800GD (not just POKEY), but that's for the future. When we designed the SOUPER + BupChip setup it was intended to simplify migration from Atari's stock mapper and dropping in audio tracks, although this requires more effort than a folder of MP3s.

 

Most of the challenge here is tied to how the audio expansion is implemented and whether it's easy to hook into the existing software.

@TailChao

... look, you’re already sharing your expertise...

 

—

why not make 3-4 youtube vids on how to do 7800 programming and game-making...?

 

—

You could, - perhaps -, use patreon as a source of financial support...

[Greg2600]

I actually was not aware of the NES GTROM + GTMP3, although similar to the 16-bit projects, doesn't really float my boat.  I'm not that fond of replacing the work of the original composers, and never had a problem with the NES' sound/music capabilities.  In the case of the 7800, obviously the original music and sound effects were no more advanced than any 2600 games.  That being said, if one were to go that route, I think it makes more sense to overhaul the entire game for the XM, or at least in the vein of the Champ Games work on VCS arcade ports. 

[turboxray]

On 8/19/2020 at 4:43 PM, Zonie said:

Not a big fan of background music on games myself.

It tends to get repetitive and you get sick of it, like a song getting stuck in your head.

Just crank up the stereo instead!

I'll never understand this. I mean, why do you even play games??? Do you only play 2nd gen games?

[+Pat Brady]

14 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

I actually was not aware of the NES GTROM + GTMP3, although similar to the 16-bit projects, doesn't really float my boat.  I'm not that fond of replacing the work of the original composers, and never had a problem with the NES' sound/music capabilities.  In the case of the 7800, obviously the original music and sound effects were no more advanced than any 2600 games.  That being said, if one were to go that route, I think it makes more sense to overhaul the entire game for the XM, or at least in the vein of the Champ Games work on VCS arcade ports. 

 

Agree about the NES.

 

A lot of 7800 games did sound better than their 2600 counterparts IMO, even though they used the same chip. Maybe that’s for technical reasons (the 7800 has more available processor cycles per frame, more RAM, more ROM per bank, and usually more ROM overall) or maybe it’s just due to programming. Still, audio was clearly the stock 7800’s weak link.

 

What does “overhaul the entire game for the XM” mean?

 

I’m all for bringing new conversions to the 7800 — that’s what I’m doing. I think the idea of updating existing 7800 games for POKEY audio also makes a lot of sense. It’s a different scale of work and a somewhat different skillset.

 

Ultimately, of course, the decisions about what to work on are going to be made by the people doing the work.

[Greg2600]

14 hours ago, bizarrostormy said:

What does “overhaul the entire game for the XM” mean?

 

I’m all for bringing new conversions to the 7800 — that’s what I’m doing. I think the idea of updating existing 7800 games for POKEY audio also makes a lot of sense. It’s a different scale of work and a somewhat different skillset.

Well I think many of the GCC games, while well done and fun to play, could use sprite and color upgrades, perhaps even to 320 mode.  They almost all could use sound effect upgrades from what were mostly reused 2600 effects.

[TailChao]

On 8/22/2020 at 4:33 PM, Giles N said:

... look, you’re already sharing your expertise...

 

—

why not make 3-4 youtube vids on how to do 7800 programming and game-making...?

 

—

You could, - perhaps -, use patreon as a source of financial support...

No offense, as I do appreciate the continued enthusiasm - but I'm not interested. There are other things right now which are more important to me than an old Atari console. Furthermore - YouTube, Patreon, and Kickstater are not funding panaceas.

 

If you'd like to support the 7800, please support the other developers still working on it. I made my offer and it was declined long ago.

 

 

On 8/22/2020 at 10:14 PM, Greg2600 said:

I actually was not aware of the NES GTROM + GTMP3, although similar to the 16-bit projects, doesn't really float my boat.  I'm not that fond of replacing the work of the original composers, and never had a problem with the NES' sound/music capabilities.

Sure, and I agree with this outlook. I brought it up moreso as it's another (fully tested and documented) method of adding an easy to use audio expansion to older hardware, which could even be adapted to a certain Atari wedge.

[RushJet1]

18 hours ago, bizarrostormy said:

 

Agree about the NES.

 

A lot of 7800 games did sound better than their 2600 counterparts IMO, even though they used the same chip. Maybe that’s for technical reasons (the 7800 has more available processor cycles per frame, more RAM, more ROM per bank, and usually more ROM overall) or maybe it’s just due to programming. Still, audio was clearly the stock 7800’s weak link.

 

What does “overhaul the entire game for the XM” mean?

 

I’m all for bringing new conversions to the 7800 — that’s what I’m doing. I think the idea of updating existing 7800 games for POKEY audio also makes a lot of sense. It’s a different scale of work and a somewhat different skillset.

 

Ultimately, of course, the decisions about what to work on are going to be made by the people doing the work.

I think some of the 7800 sounding better than the 2600 boils down to competition.  Games were under a lot of pressure to sound better in 1986 than in 1977-1983.  During the 2600's first run, the competitors also had pretty rudimentary sound capabilities- even the PCs had just a beeper a lot of the time.

 

Having more available RAM and ROM space didn't hurt, though.

[+Pat Brady]

4 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Well I think many of the GCC games, while well done and fun to play, could use sprite and color upgrades, perhaps even to 320 mode.  They almost all could use sound effect upgrades from what were mostly reused 2600 effects.

 

I don’t disagree with that. I just see it as a different level of cost/benefit. The colors aren’t a big problem to me, and upgrading to 320 is a bigger project.

 

That being said, I briefly played a few of them just now, and the sound is mostly not as bad as I remembered:

• Asteroids: Less primitive than the arcade version. I’m not sure the added effects are an improvement, but they do fit with the 7800 version’s visual style.
• Joust: No background music, either in the arcade or on 7800. 7800 sounds slightly better than the 2600 version and respectably close to the arcade.
• Centipede: Similar to Joust.
• Dig Dug: I believe GCC did the 2600 port and to my ears they used the same audio on the 7800. POKEY would be better but the TIA audio is not bad.
• Xevious: The opening tune omits the bass part but the harmony sounds fantastic. Gameplay actually sounds better than the arcade to me because in the arcade, shooting abruptly mutes the tune. Any upgrade here would just be to get more channels.
• Ms. Pac-Man: Has already been upgraded to POKEY by PacManPlus and then to YM2151 by Synthpopalooza for PacManPlus’s new 320 version. But the TIA original actually sounds excellent.
• Donkey Kong: Has already been upgraded to POKEY by tep392. To me, the biggest problem with the TIA original is that Mario’s footsteps and climbing are just way too loud. The jumping and death sounds are also much worse than the arcade’s. Still, I don’t hate it as much as some people do.
• Donkey Kong Junior: The worst IMO. Background music in screen 1 alternates waveforms which is very jarring to me. Some of the waveforms sound much louder than others at the same volume level. I think they compensated for that some but not enough. On later screens the sound is pretty grating.
• Mario Bros.: Like Donkey Kong, footsteps are too loud. The level-complete tune sounds bad, and the game-over tune has one note that is way flat.

So of those, only the last two really need upgraded sound IMO.

[Greg2600]

Pole Position II needs some love IMO. 

[Giles N]

On 8/24/2020 at 6:05 PM, TailChao said:

No offense, as I do appreciate the continued enthusiasm - but I'm not interested. There are other things right now which are more important to me than an old Atari console. Furthermore - YouTube, Patreon, and Kickstater are not funding panaceas.

 

If you'd like to support the 7800, please support the other developers still working on it. I made my offer and it was declined long ago.

 

 

Sure, and I agree with this outlook. I brought it up moreso as it's another (fully tested and documented) method of adding an easy to use audio expansion to older hardware, which could even be adapted to a certain Atari wedge.

I did buy your game, - patreon are given to voluntary donations...

 

... making a good name,

a good reputation...

may have its own unique valuta... 

 

... your team may be very experienced by now... (as to 7800 production)

 

... knowledge may be ... income...

Edited August 29, 2020 by Giles N

[+Pat Brady]

36 minutes ago, Giles N said:

I did buy your game, - patreon are given to voluntary donations...

 

... making a good name,

a good reputation...

may have its own unique valuta... 

 

... your team may be very experienced by now... (as to 7800 production)

 

... knowledge may be ... income...

 

I think TailChao has made his point very clearly both here and on the Rikki & Vikki thread. As much as I would welcome his continued involvement (of any sort) in the 7800 scene, we need to respect his decisions about how to spend his time.

[CPUWIZ]

If you are willing to give up the second joystick port (ala Vox), I have something brewing.

 

EDIT: I should probably do a KickStarter or take pre-orders. LOL, see ya in a few years.

[Giles N]

23 hours ago, bizarrostormy said:

 

I think TailChao has made his point very clearly both here and on the Rikki & Vikki thread. As much as I would welcome his continued involvement (of any sort) in the 7800 scene, we need to respect his decisions about how to spend his time.

I respect his decisions...

 

It was merely a suggestion concerning how to (possibly) make a few more bucks on already-attained programming-knowledge.

 

I’m satisfied with PenguinNets production and delivery.

 

Suggestions are not orders. Just an attempt at constructive feedback as to how to use ones skills & knowledge.

 

It was meant as a compliment to skill, and a possible way of getting more money for time already invested (that is: reading up and understanding on 7800 programming and game-developement).

 

- - -

I certainly respect PenguiNets and TailChao’s own decisions.

[Jinks]

3 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

If you are willing to give up the second joystick port (ala Vox), I have something brewing.

 

EDIT: I should probably do a KickStarter or take pre-orders. LOL, see ya in a few years.

A few years is ok. How about decades?