"Dragonfly" my version of the Atari 7800 SD cartridge

[mimo]

1 hour ago, Atari Nut said:

Will this device need to be connected to a computer to function or do you just connect it once to load the games and then you can disconnected it?

It's got a micro SD card onboard

[rj1307]

In response to the questions:
- the power supply is connected to the cartridge, and then the console is powered from it. It is he who decides whether to apply power to the console. If it runs on a regular 9V power supply, it will work with Dragonfly too. The advantage of such a solution is that we do not burden the original A7800 stabilizer, the console will draw less power than with the original cartridge.
- the POKEY chips must be arranged on your own, the socket will be soldered under it.
- Dragonfly works with an SD card, no need to connect to a computer The list of files and directories is shown on the LCD. USB is a tribute to developers, it's easier to test games this way.
- about the A2600 games, I was wondering about it. I still have a lot of resources in CPLD, I could run basic A2600 banking. It should take me about two weeks.
I can do it later, but updating the cartridge would require you to have the Altera USB-Blaster programmer.

[larryleffaovell]

10 minutes ago, rj1307 said:

- about the A2600 games, I was wondering about it. I still have a lot of resources in CPLD, I could run basic A2600 banking. It should take me about two weeks.
I can do it later, but updating the cartridge would require you to have the Altera USB-Blaster programmer.

Depending on the price I'd be in for at least one, if not two. A2600 banking would be a groovy, but I'm owning an USB-Blaster already, so updating later isn't a problem for me.

[Shawn]

2600 functionality would only be a bonus, A full featured 7800 specific cart as you already have it is more than I was expecting to see. If 2600 games where not a thing it would not be a draw back from my purchasing that is for sure.

[Trebor]

35 minutes ago, Shawn said:

2600 functionality would only be a bonus, A full featured 7800 specific cart as you already have it is more than I was expecting to see. If 2600 games where not a thing it would not be a draw back from my purchasing that is for sure.

?

Seconded.

[Shawn]

2 minutes ago, Trebor said:

?

Seconded.

 

It only makes sense to me seeing as there are already a decent number of 2600 SD carts that have that covered.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

10 minutes ago, Shawn said:

 

It only makes sense to me seeing as there are already a decent number of 2600 SD carts that have that covered.

Exactly! We already have the Harmony variants and the Uno Cart which both fill my needs on the 2600 side of things already. This cart featuring full 7800 game compatibility and not requiring any changes to the roms themselves to get them to work is excellent as well. I'm in for one for sure! Curious to see how it will look in a cart shell though? Will it require a customer cart case similar to what you did with your AgaCart for the Lynx? I notice for instance no hole in the center of your PCB for the center post of a standard cart shell to screw together with as an example?

 

[+sramirez2008]

41 minutes ago, Trebor said:

?

Seconded.

Third it!

 

<Edit> I’m prepared to buy that proof of concept cart!

Edited August 16, 2020 by sramirez2008
POC

[RevEng]

First off, congrats on the tremendous progress!

 

Second, some constructive criticism. I think the on-cart UI is bit of a weakness. There are nearly 60 retail roms, and a lot more than that if you throw in homebrews and hacks. Scrolling through a list like that one visible file at a time, while hunched over the console, is less than ideal.

 

If it can be done, I'd recommend that you implement a bank scheme that would allow someone else to write a menu launcher rom. e.g. the scheme would copy SD directory entries to $4000, and writing to a hotspot at $8000+N would cause the cart to re-launch the Nth game. Auto-running "menu.a78" if it's present on power-up would make it seamless. If such a bank scheme existed, I'm sure there would be at least one custom launcher created for this scheme by homebrewers, and likely there would be several.

[Shawn]

53 minutes ago, RevEng said:

First off, congrats on the tremendous progress!

 

Second, some constructive criticism. I think the on-cart UI is bit of a weakness. There are nearly 60 retail roms, and a lot more than that if you throw in homebrews and hacks. Scrolling through a list like that one visible file at a time, while hunched over the console, is less than ideal.

 

If it can be done, I'd recommend that you implement a bank scheme that would allow someone else to write a menu launcher rom. e.g. the scheme would copy SD directory entries to $4000, and writing to a hotspot at $8000+N would cause the cart to re-launch the Nth game. Auto-running "menu.a78" if it's present on power-up would make it seamless. If such a bank scheme existed, I'm sure there would be at least one custom launcher created for this scheme by homebrewers, and likely there would be several.

 

That would be badass.

[Goochman]

I second the on screen menu.  I had an 8bit SIO device with an LCD and never used it for that reason

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, Goochman said:

I second the on screen menu.  I had an 8bit SIO device with an LCD and never used it for that reason

To be fair, his Agacart for the Lynx doesn't use any on screen menu either and requires the use of two buttons to select the files off the SD card manually to load up. So you have to keep a list nearby of what game is what number. Similar to how floppy emulators work like the GoTEK. But to be honest, I don't mind this at all and love the simplicity of how that cart works. This cart on the other hand seems a bit more involved.

 

If I have this right, this is the basic operation:

- Games are loaded on SD card

- The power for the console plugs into the cart with a second power cable from the cart plugging into the 7800 itself

- The cart is powered on first and using the buttons you navigate the games using the LCD to view them

- I assume a button is pressed to confirm and load the game?

- The flash cart then loads up the game to active memory and then powers on the 7800 automatically with the game loading up just like a normal cartridge at that point?

- Play the game...

 

So I wonder if the game contents are stored in such a way that if you wanted to play that game again, you could just fire up the cartridge and the last game played is already loaded up so you can just press a button to power on the 7800 and load it up?

 

Overall, it is a very cool concept and I'm curious to see where Rafal takes it in full form. Also curious what the other 2 wires coming off the cart and plugging into the BIOS are for?

 

[rj1307]

Forgive me for answering in groups, but I'm on vacation and I'm only online for a moment:
- selecting a game via the display is not problematic, using directories and subdirectories you can organize files.
- I designed the cartridge according to my knowledge and skills, I do not want to be dependent on anyone, order him to write a loader and wait forever for the end.
- the two wires visible in the photos are only in the prototype, there are only WE and OE signals for RAM
- the selected file is rewritten to the SRAM memory of the cartridge, and remains there until overwritten by another file or the cartridge is powered off. Turning off the console's power does not result in memory loss.

- the housing will be designed and printed on a 3D printer after the final PCB version is finished. I don't need a hole in the middle, the hooks on the sides are enough. I once did this for Amstrad:

 

 

 

Following your suggestions, I remain with the A7800 and do not deal with the A2600.

Edited August 17, 2020 by rj1307

[+Mitch]

Maybe I missed it but has this been tested on any NTSC 7800 consoles?

 

Mitch

[Trebor]

44 minutes ago, Mitch said:

Maybe I missed it but has this been tested on any NTSC 7800 consoles?

 

Mitch

?

The first picture does appear to be the C300633 Universal motherboard for PAL, and rj1307 does hail from Poland. 

 

It would be crucial to have this tested under at least one NTSC CO25233-001 and one NTSC CO25233-002 motherboard.  The experience and compatibility may differ quite greatly.

[Shawn]

10 hours ago, Trebor said:

?

The first picture does appear to be the C300633 Universal motherboard for PAL, and rj1307 does hail from Poland. 

 

It would be crucial to have this tested under at least one NTSC CO25233-001 and one NTSC CO25233-002 motherboard.  The experience and compatibility may differ quite greatly.

 

I know Walter is gonna be doing some testing and he has NTSC machines at his disposal.

[TyrionXavier]

Where do I pre-order?!

[rj1307]

Now nowhere, when everything will be finished and tests will come out positive, I'll start a new thread.

[rj1307]

Today I tested a replacement for the POKEY chip called Pokey Max.

 

  

 

 

 

Works great, I can't hear the difference in sound between the original chip and the replacement. You can compare yourself.

 

 

Original:

 

 

Pokey Max:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by rj1307

[Trebor]

Just a note to NTSC region folk listening...

Both will sound a bit slow to what you are accustomed to as it is being played back under PAL. 

 

Looking forward to the news on the NTSC compatibility testing! 

[+sramirez2008]

Oh I so can’t wait for this!

[RevEng]

It might also be good to have @Synthpopalooza recommend some torture tests, using some of the more experimental pokey songs he's been creating. These songs use more exotic pokey functionality, and tend to expose any limits in emulation. AFAIK Crystal Quest was implemented using more basic functionality. (he can comment on that too)

[rj1307]

Pokey Max was heavily tested on the Atari 8bit and everything was positive. But I will be happy to test any music you show me
Tomorrow I should receive the NTSC console, so I will tire the prototype further. If you know games with unusual banking, please send files or names. For now, I'm basing on "Trebors_7800_ROM_PROPack_v3_6"

[Synthpopalooza]

Bentley Bear CQ uses strictly $Ax square wave settings in 8 and 16 bit mode, which is fairly standard and well supported in emulation.

 

As a preliminary test I would first suggest the music I did for the forthcoming Millie and Molly game which steps out of the normal POKEY comfort zone.

 

After that ... my POKEY experiment thread on here has some that utilize SKCTLS=$8B two tone mode.  Specifically,  3D Worldrunner, Donkey Kong Country, and both Super Mario World themes in that thread.  Please try those out and let me know how they fare.

[Trebor]

3 hours ago, Synthpopalooza said:

Specifically,  3D Worldrunner, Donkey Kong Country, and both Super Mario World themes in that thread.  Please try those out and let me know how they fare.

 

3 hours ago, rj1307 said:

Pokey Max was heavily tested on the Atari 8bit and everything was positive. But I will be happy to test any music you show me
Tomorrow I should receive the NTSC console, so I will tire the prototype further. If you know games with unusual banking, please send files or names. For now, I'm basing on "Trebors_7800_ROM_PROPack_v3_6"

For reference...

 

3D Worldrunner: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/293427-pokey-16-bit-mode-and-other-audctl-settings-a7800-emulation/?do=findComment&comment=4342611

 

Donkey Kong Country (AKA Stickerbrush Symphony): https://atariage.com/forums/topic/293427-pokey-16-bit-mode-and-other-audctl-settings-a7800-emulation/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-4491116

 

Super Mario World: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/293427-pokey-16-bit-mode-and-other-audctl-settings-a7800-emulation/?do=findComment&comment=4351692

 

...all the above are contained in "Trebors_7800_ROM_PROPack_v3_6".

 

Side notes for everyone following along:

To be clear, the comparisons being discussed are with the original POKEY chip and PokeyMAX.  @Synthpopalooza, please correct me if I am wrong, but it is already known that the PokeyONE does not support SKCTLS; so anything that utilizes that (scarcely known/leveraged) function of the POKEY chip will not sound correct with a PokeyONE in place.

 

All 7800 POKEY titles being sold under the AtariAge store by @Albert do not utilize SKCTLS; so with a PokeyONE, as demonstrated above, sound identical compared with an original POKEY chip.  Ditto for those who purchase Donkey Kong PK from @tep392.

 

Additionally, there is a Version 1 (linked earlier) and a Version 2 (here) of the PokeyMAX chip.  I am unsure of compatibility differences - if any exists.  At the very least, Version 2 has "Higher volume audio output".  Unsure of how much of a volume difference there is between the two versions, how the two versions' playback compares mixing with TIA (I.E. Commando), and the volume balance variation from an original POKEY (or PokeyONE for that matter).

 

Last but not least, there's a price difference between the two substitution chips as well.  A PokeyONE costs ~$40, and a PokeyMAX ~$60-$70, before shipping.  Shipping is free for the PokeyONE to those in the U.S.  PokeyMAX ships from Europe (I've only come across Poland specifically), and costs appears to be ~$14 to the US. 

 

When viewing the listings from the same seller/developer, the PokeyMAX is being sold for $59.00+$13.99 shipping, and other posts, it is being sold for $69.00+$13.99 shipping.  Maybe the cheaper one is Version 1 (?)  Regardless, that's a different matter altogether.