+bob1200xl Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Would someone be willing to send me one of these? I'd like to see what is going on with them. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 41 minutes ago, bob1200xl said: Would someone be willing to send me one of these? I'd like to see what is going on with them. I think I did a fairly good job of spelling out what the problem is in this video cable review topic I created . But I'll sum it up. By placing the luma and chroma (and likely composite) wires along side each other for a distance of several feet, and not shielding between them, allows chroma color clocking (and likely chroma from the composite signal as well) to bleed over (cross-couple) into the luma signal before it gets to the monitor. And it is a known fact that there are many LCD monitors that do not like this, and will show jail bars because of it (closely spaced vertical banding). This is the nature of Lotharek's HQ Video Cable, which is a completely unshielded cable meant to be used with our Atari 8-bits. Even if we assume that the signal wires are twisted pairs, with one side being ground, and other being the actual signal, this would not be enough to prevent the cross-coupling I was talking about. Also to be perfectly clear, this is strictly an S-Video problem and does not impact on viewing with a composite monitor. Which makes sense when you consider that composite is chroma and luma mixed together. Most CRTs and a few LCDs are not bothered by the color clocking getting into the luminance, thus it's presumed that the particular processing circuitry being used in the problematic monitors, to take S-Video and change it into a digital form for display on the LCD screen, is just more sensitive to this phenomena. And finally, this is not just theory but has been proven thrice over to be the case in my tests between the HQ Cable and a DIY cable that I fabricated with individually shielded wires. So I guess that makes this the end of my story . I'll be sending you my Lotharek cable later this week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 On 8/24/2020 at 8:31 AM, TGB1718 said: Just a guess by looking at the photo, I think the video signal wires have twisted pairs with the white wires (there a few of those) No quite as good as shielding, but if all the white wires are grounded, you should have a better picture using one of these. Obviously you would need to confirm this with a meter first. Slightly off topic, but there have been long discussion about analog audio signals over twisted pair (good and bad). Case in point, the previous owner of my MR2 car wired up a the amps and head unit using "bling" clear cables and I always would get a nasty hum after a while (not Alternator hum). The only way to fix it was to literally unplug the RCA cables from the amps and plug them back in. It would be fine for a while then start up again after a while of driving. One day I decided to rip it all out and replace the cables after I noticed the "audio" cables, while sure looking pretty didn't really have a shield. It looked like it did but if you cut the cable, it was twisted pair - fine for digital not for analog audio. I put some thick monoprice normal RCA audio cables with a darn shield in place and haven't heard a peep since. I've argued with younger audio folks about this and am emphatic that if you run any length of analog signal you best have a shield. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierodoug5 Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 Here is a pic of my screen with the 8 bits classic cable https://www.8bitclassics.com/product/atari-xlxe-5-pin-din-to-s-video-composite-av-cable/ 800Xl, Dell Fp2001 hooked up with S-video Working on a better cable solution to use. The jailbars are bad, but otherwise the image is sharp, colors look good and 80 column text looks great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 26, 2020 Author Share Posted August 26, 2020 20 minutes ago, Fierodoug5 said: Here is a pic of my screen with the 8 bits classic cable https://www.8bitclassics.com/product/atari-xlxe-5-pin-din-to-s-video-composite-av-cable/ 800Xl, Dell Fp2001 hooked up with S-video Working on a better cable solution to use. The jailbars are bad, but otherwise the image is sharp, colors look good and 80 column text looks great Those jail bars are definitely caused by the commonly shielded S-Video cable in the wire bundle. Meaning that 8-Bit Classics opted to run both the chroma and luma inside the same shield, which although it protects it from outside interference will still allow cross-talk between the signals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrarkus Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 Great discussion, and with everything being said, what IS the best S-Video cable that can be bought right now? I admit I'm a spoiled Sophia DVI brat, but wouldn't mind having a nice S-Video as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierodoug5 Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 I ordered this one http://herculesworkshop.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-product.cgi?d=hercules-workshop&item=80304 Says Double Shielded only $15 Coming from Canada to me in NJ so me be a little while before I get it Sounds and looks like a quality cable...we shall see 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StickJock Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 I "rolled my own" a while back, but I made a few bad moves. The first set, I actually made two sets of cables. I took a 6' AV cable that had stereo audio, composite & S-video, and cut it in half to make two sets. I figured that the monitor is right there, so 3' should be plenty long, right? Well, it really isn't. The monitor port on the 800 is pretty far forward on the side. The next one I used a longer cable, but I think I shorted something while forcing the cover w/integrated gromet over the Din-5. The cable was pretty thick, and the hole in the cover wasn't. What I *should* have done is squirted a bunch of hot glue on the back of the Din-5 to encapsulate all of the wires prior to pushing the cover on. I also had some problems with the pins getting too hot and moving in the plug. On the last one I did, I found a Din-5 socket, and stuck it on the end of the plug to hold everything in place while soldering. But to summarize, buy a good quality (long enough) AV cable, cut the plugs off of one end, and solder it to a Din-5 plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierodoug5 Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 (edited) I tried to make my own cable, It didn't go well. Trying to solder everything to that tiny din5 plug is a PITA! I'll try again if I have to, but I am hoping the Hercules cable I ordered is as good as it looks. Edited August 26, 2020 by Fierodoug5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 26, 2020 Author Share Posted August 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Fierodoug5 said: I ordered this one http://herculesworkshop.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-product.cgi?d=hercules-workshop&item=80304 Says Double Shielded only $15 Coming from Canada to me in NJ so me be a little while before I get it Sounds and looks like a quality cable...we shall see That's a great price for a nice looking cable. I think I'll order one or two as well after you report back on yours. REORDER NO. H0A5PSE6 ($15) Adapter to convert the 3.5mm jack to dual RCAs: Monoprice 6ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/2 RCA Plug Cable (only $0.83) They also show this one already with RCA plugs. REORDER NO. H0A5PS6 ($18) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamm Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 1 hour ago, mytek said: That's a great price for a nice looking cable. I think I'll order one or two as well after you report back on yours. REORDER NO. H0A5PSE6 ($15) Adapter to convert the 3.5mm jack to dual RCAs: Monoprice 6ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/2 RCA Plug Cable (only $0.83) They also show this one already with RCA plugs. REORDER NO. H0A5PS6 ($18) There's an option to order that first cable with a single RCA jack instead of the 3.5mm. Curiously, the second cable doesn't explicitly say it's "double-shielded". I wonder if there's really a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrarkus Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 7 hours ago, Fierodoug5 said: I ordered this one http://herculesworkshop.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-product.cgi?d=hercules-workshop&item=80304 Says Double Shielded only $15 Coming from Canada to me in NJ so me be a little while before I get it Sounds and looks like a quality cable...we shall see Thanks, ordered one! They have a nice selection of video cables, if the first one works well, I might have to order few other ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+tf_hh Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 On 8/23/2020 at 2:48 AM, mytek said: Lotharek HQ Video Cable (S-Video) DIY Video Cable with individually shielded signal wires (S-Video) Might sounds strange, but I`M HAPPY TO READ THIS! I´ve ordered two cables several months ago, and both cables make the same problem. I found the reason why: The "Chroma" pin of the S-Video plug isn´t connected to Pin 5 or the DIN 5 plug (which contains "C" - Chroma - at all XEs, the XLF and modded XLs), it´s connected to pin 4 - CVBS. So you get all the ugly disturbations of a combined (CVBS) signal also to S-Video, what is nonsense, than this is the one and only goal of S-Video: having different signals to get better color quality. I wrote this to Lotharek, he said he checked the cables in stock and they´re ok. Because normally I trust him absolutely, I take this as it is, cut the glued DIN 5 plug and make my own. Since this the S-Video quality is okay. But reading this thread here shows me, I´m not the only one... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesk8 Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 This is the quality I get from my Lotharek cable (S-Video) via RetroTINK Pro to LCD monitor NEC231WMi. As mentioned earlier, it looks good, but probably could be still improved by additional shielding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+tf_hh Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 20 minutes ago, mikesk8 said: This is the quality I get from my Lotharek cable (S-Video) via RetroTINK Pro to LCD monitor NEC231WMi. As mentioned earlier, it looks good, but probably could be still improved by additional shielding. After all - as already said here some times - the cables aren´t shielded. You didn´t get what you paid for. 2nd... the experiences of picture quality depends massively on the personal environment. If you have a WLAN access point and/or a DECT wireless phone sender and/or Bluetooth senders in the near of the Atari and it´s cables, it might force disturbations somehow. If your Atari isn´t fully shielded anymore and your cellphone is near to this computer, or one of the EMI sources above, the effects can be surprisingly. After all: Making video cables where at least no shielding overall is present is gambling, nothing more, nothing less. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamm Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 2 hours ago, mikesk8 said: This is the quality I get from my Lotharek cable (S-Video) via RetroTINK Pro to LCD monitor NEC231WMi. As mentioned earlier, it looks good, but probably could be still improved by additional shielding. I have the same set up (Lotharek, svideo, RetroTink, LCD) but get the same jailbars as @Fierodoug5. I was a bit disappointed since this is after putting in UAV, so I’m hopeful like @tf_hh that a shielded cable will address the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 14 hours ago, Fierodoug5 said: I ordered this one http://herculesworkshop.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-product.cgi?d=hercules-workshop&item=80304 Says Double Shielded only $15 Coming from Canada to me in NJ so me be a little while before I get it Sounds and looks like a quality cable...we shall see I've been eyeing their cables for awhile now (and I wish I had purchased one instead of the Lotharek cable) - Let us know how it turns out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarland Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 (edited) FYI I do get the jail bars on my CRT but it's not nearly as pronounced as the 2007FPb LCD. Comparing the good s-video cable with the Lotharek cable it's noticeable but not as pronounced. I could see why someone would not notice it if not doing a comparison but the bars are there. The CRT aperture grille helps to hide the jail bars to a degree. This is with a flat screen CRT, presumably a Sony Trinitron tube in an Apex brand TV. Edited August 26, 2020 by Sugarland 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 I always had terrible luck with my 8-bitters on my LCD devices. I also built my own cables, cutting existing cables in half and installing DIN5 jacks on them. I am glad I never offered any for sale, as given the above images, I am sure the cables I was using were incorrectly made. Still - it gave me an excuse to collect 2 Sony PVMs (14", 20"), 2 Sony Trinitron 8" monitors, and a 1977 Sony Trinitron "portable" 8" TV At some point I definitely want to try a proper cable and see how things look on my LCDs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 16 hours ago, Stephen said: I always had terrible luck with my 8-bitters on my LCD devices. I also built my own cables, cutting existing cables in half and installing DIN5 jacks on them. I am glad I never offered any for sale, as given the above images, I am sure the cables I was using were incorrectly made. Still - it gave me an excuse to collect 2 Sony PVMs (14", 20"), 2 Sony Trinitron 8" monitors, and a 1977 Sony Trinitron "portable" 8" TV At some point I definitely want to try a proper cable and see how things look on my LCDs. Any cables I've made myself turned out complete garbage, soldering those tiny pins is a PITA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 BTW has Lotharek already reacted to this not so flattering review? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NISMOPC Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 2 hours ago, orpheuswaking said: Any cables I've made myself turned out complete garbage, soldering those tiny pins is a PITA Made my own 8-bit USB power supply and had same PITA situation with those pins. Destroyed the first connector, but successfully did the second one correctly and couldn't be happier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StickJock Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 45 minutes ago, NISMOPC said: Made my own 8-bit USB power supply and had same PITA situation with those pins. Destroyed the first connector, but successfully did the second one correctly and couldn't be happier. It really helps to have a matching socket to plug the connector into. I had problems with the plastic around the pins melting and the pins shifting positions on the first ones I did as well. When I did the last one, I was in a different lab at work and found a socket in one of the hundreds of little plastic drawers, and it really, really helped. I also was using a microscope for all of my soldering attempts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NISMOPC Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, StickJock said: It really helps to have a matching socket to plug the connector into. I had problems with the plastic around the pins melting and the pins shifting positions on the first ones I did as well. When I did the last one, I was in a different lab at work and found a socket in one of the hundreds of little plastic drawers, and it really, really helped. I also was using a microscope for all of my soldering attempts. That's EXACTLY how I did it the 2nd time First one the pins got so hot they moved in the socket and were fubar'd beyond use. Edited August 27, 2020 by NISMOPC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archeocomp Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 My experience says plastic melts only on cheap DIN connectors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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