+mytek Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 (edited) I'm happy that some of you are getting a good jail bar free image with the Lotharek HQ Video Cable, but it isn't because the video cable was manufactured correctly, assuming there hasn't been a design change recently. Consider yourself lucky, and that your monitor(s) employ some extra processing to clean up the luminance signal (e.g, strip out the chroma contamination). But there is no way that I will be convinced that the Lotharek HQ Video Cable I have was properly made per good video standards, because it certainly wasn't. CRTs will tend to be somewhat immune to the jail bar effect, so for those this cable and the 8-bit Classics one will likely work just fine. Whereas LCD monitors will be a mixed bag. BTW, I have tested this on 2 different S-Video LCD monitors (Sharp and Panasonic). The Sharp is multi sync capable and was tested in PAL and NTSC modes, whereas the Panasonic was NTSC only. They both had serious jail bars with the HQ Video Cable, from two entirely different systems. I will run another test with a bone stock 65XE today, and see what happens, although I strongly suspect there will be no difference. Edited August 22, 2020 by mytek Added additional comment 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 4 hours ago, NISMOPC said: I know this isn't much help, but I use Best Electronics composite and it works great. I also have a generic one that I use on my TI-99 that works well. This is an S-Video related problem and not something that normally affects composite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NISMOPC Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, mytek said: This is an S-Video related problem and not something that normally affects composite. I figured my post would be useless ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 1 minute ago, NISMOPC said: I figured my post would be useless ? No I disagree, your post was very useful in that it prompted me to provide a 2nd case scenario pointing out that composite only video cables do not normally share this same issue, thus emphasizing that this is more of a S-Video cable problem . 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 23, 2020 Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 Brand new (NOS) NTSC 65XE used as test system. Totally stock, case never opened. I first ran the test using my Panasonic LCD monitor, then I switched to a USB capture device, which is where these images came from. The capture device was pretty darn close to what it looked like to my eye on the Panasonic. So now that essentially makes 3 different monitoring devices that I've used (includes my Sharp LCD), and in all cases the Lotharek cable renders extremely visible jail bars. Lotharek HQ Video Cable (S-Video) DIY Video Cable with individually shielded signal wires (S-Video) I don't know what you guys think, but there is really no doubt what-so-ever in my mind that the Lotharek HQ Video Cable has issues. I know we all love the various upgrade goodies that he sells for our A8's, and the quality of those items, but this one obviously slipped through the cracks. NOS 65XE Test System - first time fired up by me 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarland Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) I agree. The cable is terrible. I ordered two of them and they both behave identically as yours with the very ugly jail bars on my LCD screen. I HAD a good opinion of Lotharek's products until these garbage cables arrived. I will not blindly trust his secondary products ever again. Edited August 23, 2020 by Sugarland 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 23, 2020 Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 55 minutes ago, Sugarland said: I agree. The cable is terrible. I ordered two of them and they both behave identically as yours with the very ugly jail bars on my LCD screen. I HAD a good opinion of Lotharek's products until these garbage cables arrived. I will not blindly trust his secondary products ever again. Sad thing is that just having one shielded cable for the luma would've probably been enough to prevent the jail bars, although it still wouldn't have been a proper video cable even then. It sure is a beautiful looking cable from the outside, too bad the inside doesn't match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 Has anyone contacted @lotharek about these issues and asked if this is an aberration? Is he aware of the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 23, 2020 Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 3 hours ago, DrVenkman said: Has anyone contacted @lotharek about these issues and asked if this is an aberration? Is he aware of the issue? Someone who posted here yesterday said that they were going to, and I asked them to post back any feedback they might get. However I have strong feeling this is not an aberration. Because I remember someone else on a different thread saying they recognized the cable as being something that was originally made for a different system, and that it looked like one end was cutoff to be replaced with a 5 pin DIN plug. This seems likely when you look at the construction and see molded connectors on one end but not on the DIN end. Also if you keep in mind the price at around $18 it doesn't seem possible for a custom cable of this type to be a money making venture for the Atari 8-bit systems selling for that little. I'm thinking it might have been purchased as overstock, and then converted for the A8. If that's the case, there's little chance of the problem getting easily resolved in the short term. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarland Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 4 hours ago, mytek said: Sad thing is that just having one shielded cable for the luma would've probably been enough to prevent the jail bars, although it still wouldn't have been a proper video cable even then. It sure is a beautiful looking cable from the outside, too bad the inside doesn't match. Yes it looks like it would be a fantastic cable. Thank you for your review and analysis of the cable, mytek. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) Lets not rip the man a new one for 1 cable, I can't vouch for the cable nor criticise it as I've never had one but in general I've had nothing but incredibly impressive products from him and he's been very helpful. Lets not knock the man in general. Of course no one wants to spend for a negative experience and maybe once he's aware he will seek answers but some have found the cable to be good while others bad, a look at the wider circumstances might be the way to go, ie internal mods clashing or just a machine output in general. Rule those out and then show Lotharek the results. Obviously individual cable shielding is a definite must in display quality.. Edited August 23, 2020 by Mclaneinc 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) I don't believe telling the truth about poor products sold by people in the community, whether DIY home-brew or more professional with a store front should be considered "ripping someone a new one." I have certainly made my voice heard about crappy products I buy from Atari Age members or others selling to the community. Just like Duddie/Retronics with the shitty Rescue Expedition cartridges, which Duddie even replaced with new case and labels, and guess what? The second ones I got were just as shitty as the first! So I did my best to repair it as I did the first and I'm living with it and it doesn't stop me from buying other products from him, I recently bought Pokeymax from him. People have a right to know and the sellers need to know and hopefully fix the issues. I will continue to buy from Retronics and Lotharek, but not everything they sell, unless they fix things. I won't be buying any more cartridge games from Retronics as long as they use those crappy Commodore carts, but I'll buy other stuff. We as customers and consumers supporting their products deserve to get quality products when we buy from them and not just accept the status quo, like some do (there were some in the community who thought I was an ASS for speaking up about the Retronics carts) just because they are supporting the community. Speak up if the product sucks, I say. If I have any issues with the quality of build or it working right when I get my Pokeymax, you can be damn sure I'll make noise about it too. By the same token, I also make sure others know when I got a great product I appreciate from someone too, which I have done in the past also! Doing this is no different than the classic computer magazine reviews for products we all (or many anyway) depended on to decide on purchases, back when magazine reviews or word of mouth was the only way. It's not personal, it's business, as they say. Edit: By the way, Rescue Expedition I didn't actually buy, though I planned on it, but in fact was a very generous gift from @davidcalgary29 When I expressed fears of not having the opportunity to purchase the limited run due to a lack of funds at the time. Thanks again David! As it turns out, Retronics still has some for sale, or at least has re-stocked. But it looks to be the same cartridge cases still. Edited August 23, 2020 by Gunstar 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Larry Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 What (technically) is the cause of the "jailbars?" That seems like the most crucial piece of evidence in solving the mystery of why it appears on some systems and not others? What are we hoping to shield against? Mytek? Bob1200XL? Is this like chasing RFI? I've seen it before with some Ataris, but mostly not, and I have "crap" cables. Attached is a picture of an (oft-maligned) stock 130XE with the "crap" cables. Not perfect, but quite good, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 Technically, the problem is, as already said by others several times, is unshielded S-video cable lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Larry Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Gunstar said: Technically, the problem is, as already said by others several times, is unshielded S-video cable lines. Not the question; what is the type of interference that we are trying to shield against? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Larry said: Not the question; what is the type of interference that we are trying to shield against? Oh, sorry. But this was also mentioned already, if not verbatum: cross over or signal bleeding between the Chroma and Luma signals from the Atari that go to the S-video plug. Edited August 23, 2020 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinadan67 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 I own this cable. I see those jailbars only when i connect both S-Video and Composite at the same time. With just S-Video and Audio connected i have no issues. I don't think this is a particular problem of Lotharek's cable, because with my other S-Video cable from the ABBUC shop i see the same behavior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 If you think not having coaxially shielded wires in your video cable is going to cause 'jailbars' on a machine which isn't already prone to them or that having coaxially shielded wires is going to eliminate jailbars on a machine which is prone to them, prepare for a disappointment. Mytek's screenshots show a significant improvement on a machine with banding, but the banding is still there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamm Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 The causes and mitigations for this particular form of video distortion aside, Lotharek’s product description clearly states this cable is “fully shielded” and that is incorrect - at least in the samples we’re looking at. I doubt he meant to be deceitful, but the fact remains that what he delivered was not what he advertised. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) I have an error of memory to correct. Sorry @davidcalgary29 , for not remembering correctly that it was in fact Star Vagrant that you gave me, and not The Rescue Expedition which I did purchase with the monies that would have gone to Star Vagrant, if I had it in time. You really did help me out big-time there, as Star Vagrant isn't available anymore! Edited August 23, 2020 by Gunstar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+skr Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 32 minutes ago, Gunstar said: as Star Vagrant isn't available anymore! There are a few copies left in the ABBUC-Shop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) Awesome! ABBUC members alert! It's worth the subscription too; the club, not necessarily the game, no comment there as I haven't had a chance to "really" play it. but product material quality is excellent. I really do have to remember and visit the ABBUC store more often! Edited August 23, 2020 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Larry said: What (technically) is the cause of the "jailbars?" That seems like the most crucial piece of evidence in solving the mystery of why it appears on some systems and not others? What are we hoping to shield against? Mytek? Bob1200XL? Is this like chasing RFI? I've seen it before with some Ataris, but mostly not, and I have "crap" cables. Attached is a picture of an (oft-maligned) stock 130XE with the "crap" cables. Not perfect, but quite good, I think. That is a pretty nice screen - what is the hookup/monitor? Did you adjust the monitor for the 130XE? If you plug in an 800XL or 1200XL that has the video fix, do you need to also adjust the monitor again? The 130XE overdrives LUMA on a CRT monitor in s-video mode unless you terminate with 75 ohms. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 11 hours ago, mytek said: Someone who posted here yesterday said that they were going to, and I asked them to post back any feedback they might get. However I have strong feeling this is not an aberration. Because I remember someone else on a different thread saying they recognized the cable as being something that was originally made for a different system, and that it looked like one end was cutoff to be replaced with a 5 pin DIN plug. This seems likely when you look at the construction and see molded connectors on one end but not on the DIN end. Also if you keep in mind the price at around $18 it doesn't seem possible for a custom cable of this type to be a money making venture for the Atari 8-bit systems selling for that little. I'm thinking it might have been purchased as overstock, and then converted for the A8. If that's the case, there's little chance of the problem getting easily resolved in the short term. That was me. I recognize the cable as an XBox 360 one. It's an aftermarket replacement, here's a link (I am not affiliated) https://www.amazon.com/Composite-S-Video-Compatible-Microsoft-Xbox-360/dp/B000V6KTDG 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 Does it make the XBox 360 have jailbars? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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