Looking for any post 1988 Atari 7800 and sourced SMS sales figures (any date) for new book.

[Leeroy ST]

Hello everyone, I am currently trying to make the first non-biased, well-researched book on the history of video game consoles which is already about to hit over 1200 pages focusing on interviews, the makings of software and consoles, sales figures, internal development and so on and so forth.

 

I have returned after long hiatus to Atariage because I am working on the last part of the book and it's the part that I intentionally left last due to difficulty, and that is the years of 1976-1993 primarily focusing on computers and video game consoles of those times (excluding the new age stuff like SNES/MD/TG16/NG etc as that is already covered and I'm finishin up the CD-i now with stuff about it's web browser and online club benefits. And already got some nice juicy info on the 3DO launch and Jaguar test run.)

 

So I'll be making threads hoping some people here may have access to some important information to connect many of the historical pieces I have together, as there are gaps in some of my information that needs to be filled, although what I have already will already be surprising to a lot of people I want to create as accurate a book as I can, which outside of some premium stuff later will be released for free in multiple formats.

 

Now then, let's get to the point I have some Atari sales numbers for New Zealand, a questionable source for some Eastern European countries as I'm still looking for verification, Japan, and imports to Nigeria.

 

Of course we know that Atari had issues with manufacturing consoles and had a tight budget at the time, but America is the only country where I am missing crucial pieces of information. This is about specifcally the Atari 7800 and the Sega Master System (SMS) in America.

 

I have one source about a record holiday sales for 1988 but zero sales numbers, and latest source for sales I have for the Atari 7800 are the ones that were found here a couple years ago from an article showing 1 million sold by 1988 during the spring/summer BEFORE the holiday season.

 

Meanwhile I have a few contradicting articles or off-hand commentary by people in the industry putting the performance of the 7800 and SMS below each other and no clear source for either the 1.5 million or 2 million number for the SMS outside one commentary during a magazine interview by a source that assumed about 1.5 million SMS sold, however that's not accurate enough.

 

What I need is to see if anyone here has ANY Atari sales data after mid-year 1988 and any more sourced information about the SMS 1.5 million sales by end of life. It is common to see articles (though hard to find) of the 7800 being seen as the better performer (in the US) without sales, and I do not think the SMS sold more as that would mean for 4 years the Atari 7800 couldn't sell another 501,000 units to beat the SMS 1.5 million sold (if that's the number) when that would likely be covered, or be mostly covered by the 1988 holiday season.

 

Receiving info hinting at any post mid-year 1988 7800 sales, and anything collaborating the 1.5 million SMS sales will make some of the interviews, and articles I have found talking about both, come together offering an impressive new understanding of these two systems and their relevance during the time period despite popular belief, their performance and impact of the market, and how they stood up to computers and the NES in terms of software. (slight reveal: I have an article claiming Atari 7800 software and hardware sold out units 2x faster (speed of what was avaailable not total number) than the NES nationwide (in the US) in holiday 1988, with Ataris lack of manufactuing capability and retail footprint being the only handicap (as well as some issues with Ataris retail "stores" hurting retail trust), and this articles relevance and legitimacy within the book can only be included if I have more information on 7800 sales, otherwise it's just another vague article that may or may not be relevant but without any backing, can't be taken too seriously.

 

So if anyone has any information on what I mentioned above this would be a great help for my book. Also if there are any articles about SMS sales throughout it's life in the US (or other countries) those would help spruce up the SMS specific part of the book as well.

 

(I also am curious if anyone has any new info after all these years (long time lurker) on Colecovision sales, I generally have given up searching for them as information from even 20 years ago i used to see seems to be unsearchable now, I have an article about the Cabbage Patch give away making massive sales increases that could be in the book, that goes into some performance details that would put Coleco clearly above the current stated number (2 million) for the console by 1984, however that (and the old rumored 6 million from way back in the day) are the only numbers I can find now, all articles, even on paid news archives I can't find actual numbers just general buzz words and PR reports, but I thought I may as well see if anyone has found any new information on the Colecovision.)

 

BTW, I have included years worth of findings from this site in the book, and it has made things a lot easier in some cases, but this era still has a lot of questions and hopefully as I post these threads we will be able to help each other find the answers and add them to the book. 

 

Appreciate it.

 

(sorry for any typos using tablet)

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

Anyone got any info on this?

[mr_me]

All the Atari 7800 US internal sales numbers (1986-90) have been posted here on Atariage.  There's one for cartridges and another that's cartridges and consoles combined.  So you just subtract one from the other for console sales. They had their biggest year in 1988 (about 415k consoles) and then a big drop in 1989 and another big drop in 1990.

 

The bogus six million colecovision sales comes from the fact that coleco did ship six million donkey kong cartridges, the colecovision pack-in.  However, this number includes millions of atari 2600 and intellivision donkey kong cartridges.  You can get an idea of colecovision sales by looking at their annual financial reports.

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

All the Atari 7800 US internal sales numbers (1986-90) have been posted here on Atariage.  There's one for cartridges and another that's cartridges and consoles combined.  So you just subtract one from the other for console sales. They had their biggest year in 1988 (about 415k consoles) and then a big drop in 1989 and another big drop in 1990.

 

The bogus six million colecovision sales comes from the fact that coleco did ship six million donkey kong cartridges, the colecovision pack-in.  However, this number includes millions of atari 2600 and intellivision donkey kong cartridges.  You can get an idea of colecovision sales by looking at their annual financial reports.

This doesn't really give me anything for the book. ALso if yoiu are talking about curt's 7800 sales weren't those proven to me inaccurate after it was revealed that Atari only sold/shipped not to much over 100k consoles because they couldnt manufacture more in 1986?

 

As for Coleco I do see the financial figures but there's a chunk missing in 1984 and there's no data I can see at all in 1985 that would give a hint of sales but I figured that nothing new came up on the CV front which is why I footnoted it in the OP, until someone finds something new I guess that 2 million is the best we are getting.

 

What I actually need for the book (outside of CV which was just an interesting curiosity if anything new came out) is any sort of sales figures by atari or the media after spring 1988 because I have so much stuff that would bring in a new perspective if I could get it, same for anything confirming/colabborating the 1.5 million for the SMS (in NA.)

[mr_me]

Those aren't Curt's figures they are Atari Corp figures posted by Curt.  I don't see anything to suggest they aren't accurate.  They show US 1986 Atari 7800 console sales of about 84k.  The mistake is that some people took the combined console and cartridge report to be consoles only.

 

Coleco financial reports have been posted on atariage including 1984.  Using all available information colecovision console sales can be estimated roughly around 2.5M maybe more.  There are lots of people that worked at coleco still around, you could do some investigation.  Why is colecovision just a curiosity.

Edited August 26, 2020 by mr_me

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

What I actually need for the book (outside of CV which was just an interesting curiosity if anything new came out) is any sort of sales figures by atari or the media after spring 1988 because I have so much stuff that would bring in a new perspective if I could get it, same for anything confirming/colabborating the 1.5 million for the SMS (in NA.)

Just a friendly tip... You keep using "collaborating" (and misspelled variations) when you mean "corroborating". 

Good luck on getting definitive sales figures. It's never been easy and you can only go by whatever info you come across and decide is sufficiently credible. And as you know, asking people things from decades ago, let alone a few years ago, can often create more confusion with hazy memories. That's why in my own works when I've given figures and there's been some doubt, I've tried to give ranges. Sometimes those ranges are extreme, like when I provided overall sales figures for the C-64, and sometimes they're within a reasonable margin of error where you can give a single approximate number.

I consider the 7800 versus SMS thing in the US a special case. It's certainly possible that the two systems had similar console sales, but being around at the time, looking at the libraries, looking at what was and wasn't in major retail outlets, looking at advertising, etc., it sure seemed like the 7800 was a firm third in comparison to Sega and Nintendo's console presence. That's why I'm particularly skeptical of 7800 claims that are not backed by truly solid evidence. Of course, again, we don't REALLY have great data for Sega/Tonka in the US either.

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Just a friendly tip... You keep using "collaborating" (and misspelled variations) when you mean "corroborating". 

Good luck on getting definitive sales figures. It's never been easy and you can only go by whatever info you come across and decide is sufficiently credible. And as you know, asking people things from decades ago, let alone a few years ago, can often create more confusion with hazy memories. That's why in my own works when I've given figures and there's been some doubt, I've tried to give ranges. Sometimes those ranges are extreme, like when I provided overall sales figures for the C-64, and sometimes they're within a reasonable margin of error where you can give a single approximate number.

I consider the 7800 versus SMS thing in the US a special case. It's certainly possible that the two systems had similar console sales, but being around at the time, looking at the libraries, looking at what was and wasn't in major retail outlets, looking at advertising, etc., it sure seemed like the 7800 was a firm third in comparison to Sega and Nintendo's console presence. That's why I'm particularly skeptical of 7800 claims that are not backed by truly solid evidence. Of course, again, we don't REALLY have great data for Sega/Tonka in the US either.

I generally find articles of the 7800 selling out what they can produce while SMS seems to linger on shelves all that is anecdotal. But that aspect is not what I'm looking for in the book I am creating.

 

I have articles that COULD shed SOME (not all) light on 7800 US sales (I alsohave some data for a few other regions as mentioned in the OP, but I need some figure, even ONE figure of any 7800 sales thats legitimate sources after the 1 million in spring of 1988 to corrborate and bring it all together. I feel like the sources are legit but I can't really use them without even minimal information.

 

It's things like this where I choose to do those years last for the book. If it's this hard with the late 80's imagine the early 80's.

 

(BTW have followed you lurking on here for years, I appreciate all your contibutions here.)

Edited August 26, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[mr_me]

What's more legitimate than internal Atari Corp sales reports.

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/144552-happy-25th-7800-sales-figures-attached/

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/144559-atari-7800-game-sales-figures-86-90/

 

Atari US 7800 console sales:

1986  84,668

1987  404,656

1988  415,690

1989  181,296

1990  31,247

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by mr_me

[Leeroy ST]

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

What's more legitimate than internal Atari Corp sales reports.

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/144552-happy-25th-7800-sales-figures-attached/

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/144559-atari-7800-game-sales-figures-86-90/

 

Atari US 7800 console sales:

1986  84,668

1987  404,656

1988  415,690

1989  181,296

1990  31,247

 

 

Because they are wrong, we have Ataris' own report of over 100k in 1986 and a statement they would have sold more if they could make more, as well as this site finding Atari had sold 1 million by spring 1988 which doesn't work with the numbers given. as that's months of the year missing including the holiday season. At best if 84k is right and the Atari statement contradiction is ignore either 87, 88, or both would have to increase to make up for the discrepency. It's also missing two years in addition.

 

When you are tying to corroborate items within an attempt at an historical book accuracy is important, at least as close as possible. Also those sales figures totalled woulf put the 7800 at less than 1.2 million in sales by 1990, which doesn't make sense if again by Spring/early summer 1988 had 1 million sold and considering that's the best year and they their production of hardware and software releases increased, I can't see a 89 drop that big. We know that Atari was slow to start due to cash, retail presense and manufacturing capacity in 86-87 so you can really put much in those years for closing the dicrepencies.

 

Not knocking on the data but I need to have consistent data that matches, I can't have contradictions then go with one source that's disconnected because it would be brought up and hurt accuracy.

 

Now with SMS I have some stuff on 1.5 million, if there's data that matches that, it would be helpful and likely included because it would verify the information at hand. 

 

5 hours ago, mr_me said:

Coleco financial reports have been posted on atariage including 1984.  Using all available information colecovision console sales can be estimated roughly around 2.5M maybe more.  There are lots of people that worked at coleco still around, you could do some investigation.  Why is colecovision just a curiosity.

If the information exists can you link it because I can't find any information here or across other boards that would directly or provide strong enough evidence at the possibility of the CV selling 2.5 million or "more" as that would not only be helpful for the book but that would be instrumental for other websites and even wikipedia (granted that site is a touch cookie to get things through) as even on here 2 million is the closest to a real number I've found on here without shaky sources suggesting a range.

 

Anything that would narrow things would be greatly appreciated.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[mr_me]

If the 100k in 1986 includes Canada, Mexico, and any other ntsc countries than the reports are not wrong.

[Leeroy ST]

11 minutes ago, mr_me said:

If the 100k in 1986 includes Canada, Mexico, and any other ntsc countries than the reports are not wrong.

It's NA.

Also the 1988 numbers are also still a contradiction with the 1 million early summer figure. Not to mention several countries didnt even get the 7800 until 87. (also missing two years as I said before.

 

Not knocking on the numbers just to knock on them but getting these oldr numbers together is hard stuff.

[Torr]

This snippet from Atarian: Video Game Magazine, their first issue dated May/June 1989 shows just how much Atari liked to lie and actually publish these lies, shows that anything they "claim" can be as trustworthy as the photographers of Bigfoot or The Loch Ness Monster.

 

Yeah... It's spring of 1989, and kids are clamoring to go to his house and play Mario Bros. (not SUPER Mario Bros. mind you!!!) and, of ALL things, Winter Games (???) on the 7800, rather than ANYTHING that had been released on the NES by that point... it's just... it's... oh my god... it's just so bad... actually, it's so SAD rather!!!

 

This CANNOT be an actual letter, I can't believe they actually used a full name, not just initials,.. and a city, not just a state...

They were REALLY lying through their teeth!!!!!

 

EDIT: Or possibly they were from a neighborhood (I know Forth Worth is not small, so it's not indicative of the city as a whole!!!) with serious xenophobia that wanted to support ANYTHING American and NOT foreign (particularly Japanese, WWII was less than 50 years in the past) Not glad I had to type that, but it's an unfortunate truth about the past (and sometimes even the present) So yeah, there might have been some parents that wouldn't by a "Nintendo" and kids would go to his house to play ANYTHING that was a video game.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Torr

[mr_me]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

It's NA.

Also the 1988 numbers are also still a contradiction with the 1 million early summer figure. Not to mention several countries didnt even get the 7800 until 87. (also missing two years as I said before.

 

Not knocking on the numbers just to knock on them but getting these oldr numbers together is hard stuff.

The one million sales reported by Atari Corp in June 1988 is worldwide console sales.  So, I don't see a contradiction.  If the atari 7800 was discontinued on Jan 1 1992 and only 31k sold in the US in 1990, whatever US sales they had in 1991 is likely insignificant.

Edited August 26, 2020 by mr_me

[+Mitch]

The 7800 wasn't released in Europe until late 1989. PAL 7800s were still being produced into 1993.

 

According to my own research, there were ~1.4 million NTSC 7800s sold, total. Possibly slightly less.

 

Mitch

[Leeroy ST]

14 hours ago, Torr said:

This snippet from Atarian: Video Game Magazine, their first issue dated May/June 1989 shows just how much Atari liked to lie and actually publish these lies, shows that anything they "claim" can be as trustworthy as the photographers of Bigfoot or The Loch Ness Monster.

 

Yeah... It's spring of 1989, and kids are clamoring to go to his house and play Mario Bros. (not SUPER Mario Bros. mind you!!!)

This actually makes perfect sense since Mario Bros. is on the 7800, you're making the assumption that based on the letter that MB was more popular but they also mention Winter Games, which is another highly touted 7800 game. It's likely just an opinion.

 

To be fair yes, atari PR has been bullshit so I kind of see why you would come to that conclusion haha.

 

13 hours ago, mr_me said:

The one million sales reported by Atari Corp in June 1988 is worldwide console sales.  So, I don't see a contradiction. 

US would be like 95+% of the sales, as a ton of terriroties didn't even get the system until 88/89 and in some cases, 87, and these were smidget numbers in the single thousands at best.

 

It doesn't add up.

 

8 hours ago, Mitch said:

The 7800 wasn't released in Europe until late 1989. PAL 7800s were still being produced into 1993.

 

According to my own research, there were ~1.4 million NTSC 7800s sold, total. Possibly slightly less.

 

Mitch

 

And this research is based on what? Small late european numbers? US would have to be nearly all the 1 million sales in early summer/spring 1988 before the holiday season for the consoles biggest year. So you're saying from the months before and up to the holiday season of 1988 to 1992 the 7800 didn't sell more than 400k in the US? Doesn't add up. It would also place them 100k less than the SMS which also doesn't add up especially since it hit 1 million later and died off around the sametime.

 

It's not that I'm just throwing you down but history books need connections to be at least somewhat clear for information to be taken seriously. As I said in the OP if I could get some kind of figure post the 1 million number for the 7800 I haveother information that would show that it performed better than expected but without a missing piece to corroborate it's going to be difficult.

 

That's one thing about these 80's consoles, especially Atari who was always CIA/KGB about sales numbers even for the 2600 at times. heck, not just their home consoles.

[mr_me]

Canada is more than 11% of the united states and mexico more than 37%.  Market penetration was probably highest in the US and Canada but the rest of north america, south america, and wherever else it was in 1987/88 is not insignificant.

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

This actually makes perfect sense since Mario Bros. is on the 7800, you're making the assumption that based on the letter that MB was more popular but they also mention Winter Games, which is another highly touted 7800 game. It's likely just an opinion.

I think you misinterpreted what he was saying. He was saying that the kid touting Mario Bros. and Winter Games on the Atari 7800 versus Super Mario Bros. (and heck, Super Mario Bros. 3 was not too far off in NA) and other games on the NES seemed like a real stretch, even for a die-hard. What's funny is that both Mario Bros. and Winter Games were also on the NES. It's almost like a fake letter or, if real, a super fanboy.

There WAS the narrative when all three systems were first on the market that the 7800 was the only console with a "real" joystick as its stock controller, but as those of us who owned all of the consoles know, it was not exactly one of the better designs. That's kind of why even with a 3 months+ lead-time on the magazine, it seems to be a stretch that a kid would talk like that in early 1989. There was very little appealing about the 7800 by that time in comparison to the other two major options, not to mention both the Turbo-Grafx/16 and Genesis being on the horizon. Of course, if the 7800 was your ONLY console and you got it second-hand or because it was the cheapest in the store, then sure, a kid would tout its superiority. Goodness knows that most "platform wars" were because you owned what you owned and the other person didn't, not typically for logical reasons.

[Zoyous]

You should really be reaching out to the people who worked for Atari and Sega of America, as well as the retailers and distributors, at the time and immediately following that era. That's the only (slim) chance of getting some real numbers. But if the 7800 sold on par with the Master System, why was that not reflected in retail shelf space? In retail catalog pages? In magazine page counts?

 

In my observation it was never even considered that the 7800 was seriously vying for 2nd place until an ex-Sega employee made an offhand remark several years ago about how they had bluffed about their own market share in those days. Then there was this flurry of activity on this forum where people were assuming that any additional market share should be attributed to the 7800. I think the implication, though, was that it should be attributed to the NES.

[Bill Loguidice]

33 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Canada is more than 11% of the united states and mexico more than 37%.  Market penetration was probably highest in the US and Canada but the rest of north america, south america, and wherever else it was in 1987/88 is not insignificant.

We know that in South America the SMS had a stronghold so I wouldn't necessarily give the 7800 much extra there, although there does seem to be a lot of Atari 2600/7800 inventory from Venezuela still.

The bottom line is I'm still highly skeptical of the Atari 7800 that, with 59 whole games worldwide (not counting the 2600 stuff) and what was considered legacy controllers by the late 80s, would be appealing to very many people compared to the SMS that had over 300 and the NES/Famicom that had more than double even that, not to mention the latter two having all kinds of peripherals and other add-ons. Outside of the 2600 stuff, all the 7800 had was light gun support that wasn't even for a light gun specifically made for it. So again, all of that added to the fact that 7800 stuff was advertised less, covered in magazines less, had less inventory in stores, etc., and I'm very, very skeptical of overly large sales numbers.

[mr_me]

I'm not saying the Atari 7800 was successful in any market, only saying that the numbers do add up.  And the numbers we are talking about are small.  Also, it wasn't uncommon to dump video games that weren't selling in the US in to latin America in the mid and late 1980s.  Didn't the SMS not come to Brazil until 1989.  I would be surprised if manufacturers didn't round up their numbers when reporting to the press.

Edited August 27, 2020 by mr_me

[Torr]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

...This actually makes perfect sense since Mario Bros. is on the 7800...

 

So... you really think kids would rather play a "more" accurate arcade port of 1983 Mario Bros. in 1989 rather than anything released on the NES by that point???

 

 

were YOU this Derek Jacobs I wonder??

[ubersaurus]

Your best bet is to run with the figures you turn up, note the inconsistencies and indicate that solid  sales figures are hard to find and may not entirely match up. Best you can do.

[+Mitch]

21 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

 

Because they are wrong, we have Ataris' own report of over 100k in 1986 and a statement they would have sold more if they could make more, as well as this site finding Atari had sold 1 million by spring 1988 which doesn't work with the numbers 

Do you have pics/scans or links for these two claims?

 

Mitch

[mr_me]

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

Do you have pics/scans or links for these two claims?

 

Mitch

The 100k in 1986 is from the Computer Entertainer, December 1986 issue.  The 1M comes from an Atari Corp press release dated June 1988.  They're not hard to find on the internet.  You might expect a little bit of embellishment but they are not out of line.  And it doesn't say they sold more than 100k, it says "only 100,000 had been made and sold in 1986".  It also clarifies that it includes the units made by Atari Inc. in 1984 and stored in a warehouse.

Edited August 27, 2020 by mr_me

[+Mitch]

I found the 1986 reference and the 1988 one.

http://www.ataricompendium.com/archives/newsletters/video_game_update/computer_entertainer_dec86.pdf

Page 8

 

and

 

 

Looking at my notes, it seems that Atari had manufactured ~110,00 consoles by the end of 1986. Not counting the 5000 sold in 1984. However the last ~21,000 were not manufactured until December of 1986 so I am skeptical that they could have sold that many.

 

I don't have anything to say about the 1988 press release except I suspect the number was perhaps a bit inflated. I haven't completed my research on that area to give a better answer.

 

Doesn't really help with your book though, sorry.

 

Mitch