River Raid Squadron modern prototype for 7800

[juanitogan]

No, not a prototype as in some found cartridge from the last century.  A modern prototype I've been working on in a modern game engine to work out game mechanics before porting to the 7800.

 

Now, that said, I probably didn't save any time on this particular game by writing it first in a modern game engine.  That is because I spent most of my time deciphering and porting the 2600 River Raid code, and didn't actually do a ton of work to mod this into a co-op game.  Oh well, maybe it will pay off in some other way.

 

Anyhow, back to the game.  Like I just hinted at, this is a mod as well as a remastering, of River Raid into a 2-player couch co-op game.  I kept the play as close as possible to the 2600 version because, well, it was an awesome game given the specs of the system.  Anything after that didn't really seem like an improvement in game play.  In my opinion, some games should be left as is and only remastered.  Of course, I didn't leave River Raid as is by modding it for 2 players but, well, I needed another motive for doing fan work on a game I don't have rights to.  Basically, I built the game I wanted when I was 12.

 

I don't want to start repeating everything I put on the game's itch.io page so I'll leave it at that for now.  I'll post more behind-the-scenes stuff in a devlog on that page as well... soon.

 

https://juanitogan.itch.io/river-raid-squadron

 

 

Enjoy,

Matt

 

[Jinks]

Cool!

[+slx]

Great idea! Not that sure about the fuel balancing, at least it should take time and maybe reduce maneuverability or disable firing. 

[Indiana Quack]

Great game to update! Have always loved playing two players on 7800 Centipede! This game would be wonderful to play! Way to go!!!!

[juanitogan]

Thank you for the positive responses.  Very cool.  I can, however, take criticism too.  Or, well, I think I can... as long as you are constructive about it and not just a hater.

 

@slx  Yeah, no doubt you read on my todo list that I plan to possibly slow down the fuel-balancing process.  I'm pretty sure that was the original plan but, for testing, I just went for the quick code and haven't gotten back to it yet.  I've been working on this game here and there for so long I can't say I remember my original motives for this mechanic.  Knowing myself, however, and how I design multiplayer games, I suspect I added this to provoke a tiny bit of contention between players.  I do this to increase conversation, add interesting decision points, and to hopefully help build tolerance and sharing.  Aside from that, I recognize that it is totally unrealistic, but so are the fuel depots.

 

That said, you've helped me refocus on this and rethink some of it.  There seems to be an ideal solution here.  One reason I (very reluctantly) created 2 modes is that while going through my thought experiments of playing this game with different types of players, I kept finding a divide in how different friends of mine like to cooperate.  Some are more sharing (or just happy to be along for the ride), and some are more inclined towards Metal Slug type co-ops where its still kinda every man for themselves.  Thus, it makes sense to probably disable the fuel balancing in the Hard Lives mode where its more every man for themselves.  I wasn't finding enough difference in this mode anyhow so this seems perfect.  I'll think it over more.

 

[fultonbot]

This looks very cool.  I love the idea of two-player co-op games on the 7800. Nice work.

[+slx]

I think it would be ok if the fuel balancing was about the same or even half the speed of filling up on fuel depots, so you‘d need to stay together for a little while which would give it a tactical aspect, even more so if you couldn’t shoot during buddy-to-buddy refueling. 

[juanitogan]

I suspect my original plan was to fuel balance at the same rate as the fuel ups.  Game design is an iterative process, however, where you sometimes build the quickest route to testing something else, and then you're like "Huh? I wonder how this feels? Maybe I don't need to go further."

 

Anyhow, I often tune such things after watching other players.  It could be that instant works well for Easy Lives and slow works well for Hard Lives, or none of the above.  I haven't actually played this game yet with anyone (such is the world these days) so it's hard for me to guess this one right.  I'm gonna have to rely on you all to test the Windows or Linux builds to tell me what you think.  And then find a good compromise.

 

[juanitogan]

For anyone who likes to read such things, I finally finished writing my devlog post telling the storied tale of how this game came to be.

 

How ‘River Raid Squadron’ Came to Be... Eventually

 

Hardcover due out after I max out the score on either River Raid or River Raid Squadron, whichever comes first.

[ZylonBane]

It seems you've attempted to improve the graphics, but... you do know there's a 5200 version of River Raid that already has even better graphics, yes?

[Greg2600]

as well as C64, Colecovision, Intellivision, etc., etc. although the graphics were not that much different on any of them.

 

RR is my favorite 2600 game so I am definitely intrigued by this!

[juanitogan]

@ZylonBane  Yes.  I explain this more in my devlog but, in short, I wasn't interested in the other changes that came with those ports.  If nothing else, my explosions are much more satisfying than any of those.  The graphics, however, are not the main point of this project.

 

 

[Shawn]

So this is just a PC game correct? It's as much a prototype for the PS5 as it is for the 7800 in that regard. This currently has nothing to do with the 7800 at all so I'm confused why you are calling it a prototype for the 7800

[Atariboy]

I like your title screen with the world's most beautiful jet, the F-86 Sabre.

[Trebor]

 

On 9/1/2020 at 7:40 PM, juanitogan said:

...A modern prototype I've been working on in a modern game engine to work out game mechanics before porting to the 7800...I don't want to start repeating everything I put on the game's itch.io page so I'll leave it at that for now....

The game's itch.io page indicates:

 

 

The highlighted piece in part states there needs to be "enough interest to bother getting around to" porting this PC remake to the 7800. 

 

What defines "enough interest"?  How is it being measured?

[TrekMD]

Very cool!  It'll be cool to see this game on the 7800! 

[SoundGammon]

Here, check out Nukey Shays hack of River Raid:

 

 

RiverRaid3(v4).bin

[juanitogan]

@Shawn and @Trebor bring up valid questions that need to be discussed more.  I tried to be clear up front as to what is going on here.  I wrote the first post in some haste thinking I could edit it later if needed.  Nope.  That edit period is good for only an hour.  I do explain things better in my devlog but: Who reads those?  It's hard to say everything that needs to be said all at once in just a few sentences, so I'm happy to answer things here.

 

Yes, this is just a PC game at the moment.  As to what I can call a prototype, I find it pretty harsh to say this has "nothing to do with the 7800 at all" but, fair enough, I suppose.  You can call it what you want.  To me, however, it has quite a bit to do with the 7800.  In my world we often prototype in tools we don't deploy in.  Furthermore, if I was prototyping just the art, for example, in just Aseprite (like I do), nobody seems to be arguing that as valid prototyping even though it's a modern tool used for all sorts of modern games.  Perhaps I should go back to graph paper and flipping bits.  So, why should code have any more restrictions than art or sfx?  I get it, however, its about trust and it's harder to trust that I'm using a modern engine to prototype what can be built on a 7800 because you can't just glance it and know as instantly as you can a sprite.  Trust, really, is the primary difference between playing a PC build of this and playing a bin in an emu on a PC.

 

Prototypes in other tools typically don't make it all the way to full functionality.  If they do, then either something happened on the way to the forum, or you're building some sort of simulator or emulator... which, well, maybe sim would be a more correct term at this point.  That wasn't the original intent, however.  I can't say at what point this changed from just a test of the co-op changes, to a test of the whole cart.  Or, if I always meant that.  If it changed, it changed for various reasons that are hard to nail down.  But, because it maybe changed, does that make it any less valid as a proto?

 

Determining level scroll speed, for example, from two player jets traveling at different speeds, was a hard algorithm to work out.  So what?, if I chose to work such things out in a different language before going to assembler with it?  I work where I can iterate the fastest.  If someone sees something in the PC builds that's not possible on the 7800, I want to know about it.  That's why I'm here.  It's why I call it a prototype.  It's not like I haven't read the programming specs of the 7800.  I have.  I've already been clear about the fuzzy areas, such as how I may or may not succeed at texturing the dark-green jagged levels.

 

I can't say I might prototype every 7800 game I might make like this.  But, it is still likely I might for some.  Consoles often come with devkits hooked up to other computers.  For me, in this case, that devkit happens to be a modern engine, to a degree.  Like I said up top, I can't say that was the smartest choice for this project, but it hasn't been a terrible choice either considering the rapid tuning I've gotten out of it.  The final product will likely be a much better-looking and better-tuned game because of it.

 

I "get" that many would consider me more cool if I went old school for every step of the project.  I'm not the type to care about such things even though I like old consoles.  I've had enough of difficult tools to last a lifetime.  I just like to build and I like to do it my way.  Whatever gets me there the fastest.

 

So, partly because of the VCS, partly because of pitches to publishers, partly because of the timeline I talked about in my devlog, I chose to push this into a Linux release sooner than expected.  It was that or wait maybe another 2 and a half years for the 7800 bin.  Maybe publishing what I have now will help that along quicker.  That's my hope anyway.  Maybe I'll even find a few new RR fans along the way.
 

I don't mean to sound annoyed by this -- I apologize if I do -- I just like to be precise in my answers and I don't always take extra color in the commentary very well.  I do, however, believe it is correct to question me on all of this.

 

As to whether or not there will definitely be a 7800 port of this game?  All I can say is, that is the intent.  I'm not, however, one to make promises that I have no idea if I can keep.  And, I like to be transparent about that.  Currently, I have no timeline planned for the 7800 port.  It will happen when it happens.

 

As to how I might quantify enough interest?  I can't say I know how to do that.  I'm sure it fluctuates.  I'll know it when I see it.  Perhaps at the top of that list is whether or not someone is willing to publish this in cart form.  Without rights to the trademarks, I make no assumptions there -- no matter how many Pac-Man spinoffs I see in the store here (and, I must add that Pac-Mac 4K is super-impressive work).  Other than that, I'm probably just looking for signs as to whether or not people are enjoying this variant of RR.  If people just want another cart to add to their library, I'm not interested.  I like to spend my time looking for new gameplay that makes people happy.

 

So, yeah, if nobody downloads my game and/or gives me any play reports, there's no point in taking this further.  On the flip side of that is, if people DL it and start throwing support at my other projects (the ones that allow contributions) asking for more co-op mods then, yeah, I'll try to get this out by the end of the year.  That's beyond unlikely, however.  If I could make a living writing new games and mods for 2600, 7800, and Lynx, I totally would.  Who wouldn't?  Has anybody figured the magic of that out?  No.  Currently, I contract part time and work on GRITS Racing part time.  Thus, River Raid Squadron (and other personal projects) only see advances on the occasional Sunday afternoon (except in rare cases like the last two weeks).
 

[juanitogan]

10 hours ago, Atariboy said:

I like your title screen with the world's most beautiful jet, the F-86 Sabre.

It is a beautiful jet.  Personally, I think the P-51 Mustang is one of the greatest works of art in the world... but it's not a jet so it doesn't qualify in this topic.  I'm not sure which jet I might call the most beautiful.  Probably one from the pre-CAD era.  Could be this one.

 

BTW, this is the 13-color version.  I've been debating going to 25 colors with it.

[juanitogan]

9 hours ago, SoundGammon said:

Here, check out Nukey Shays hack of River Raid

Thanks.  It's an interesting hack that I think I've seen before, but don't quite remember for sure.  For me, anyway, such hacks don't make a better game even though they can be terribly interesting to dig through.  I prefer very few but well-tuned options.

[Trebor]

12 hours ago, juanitogan said:

As to whether or not there will definitely be a 7800 port of this game?  All I can say is, that is the intent.  I'm not, however, one to make promises that I have no idea if I can keep.  And, I like to be transparent about that.  Currently, I have no timeline planned for the 7800 port.  It will happen when it happens.

 

As to how I might quantify enough interest?  I can't say I know how to do that.  I'm sure it fluctuates.  I'll know it when I see it.  Perhaps at the top of that list is whether or not someone is willing to publish this in cart form.  Without rights to the trademarks, I make no assumptions there -- no matter how many Pac-Man spinoffs I see in the store here (and, I must add that Pac-Mac 4K is super-impressive work).  Other than that, I'm probably just looking for signs as to whether or not people are enjoying this variant of RR.  If people just want another cart to add to their library, I'm not interested.  I like to spend my time looking for new gameplay that makes people happy.

 

So, yeah, if nobody downloads my game and/or gives me any play reports, there's no point in taking this further.  On the flip side of that is, if people DL it and start throwing support at my other projects (the ones that allow contributions) asking for more co-op mods then, yeah, I'll try to get this out by the end of the year.  That's beyond unlikely, however.  If I could make a living writing new games and mods for 2600, 7800, and Lynx, I totally would.  Who wouldn't?  Has anybody figured the magic of that out?  No.  Currently, I contract part time and work on GRITS Racing part time.  Thus, River Raid Squadron (and other personal projects) only see advances on the occasional Sunday afternoon (except in rare cases like the last two weeks).

So essentially, the opening post is announcing a PC game in which if it leads to people taking an interest in your other game developments and financially contributing by paying to download them, this PC game may get a port to the Atari 7800 by the end of the year.

 

Additionally though, you recognize that's beyond unlikely, so although there is intent, the probability of this actually becoming a 7800 game seems extremely low, due to the aforementioned, and currently there is no timeline planned for the 7800 port.

 

Am I misunderstanding something?  I appreciate the clarity, as I'm trying not to wrongly presume anything or set any false expectations.

[juanitogan]

@Trebor That would be a fair summary.  Although, I would like to clarify that there is no expectation of financial contribution anywhere.  That was just me ranting about the impossibility of expectations around free software and how free is never free enough to some.  I run into this a lot and so I tend to rant about it.  If people want free faster, or to a deadline, throw some money at those working on it.  In the mean time, I don't care to give any false hopes about how quickly a 7800 port may or may not arrive.  I still have more prototyping to do before I can think about that.

 

So, yes, don't set any false expectations.  I would appreciate that.  I need first figure out if this game is worthy or not by finding testers.

[Shawn]

OK, so this doesn't have anything to do with the Atari 7800 as already stated. The "7800 prototype" that is more accurately (and honestly) described as a "PC game" is still just as close to being released for the PS5 as it is for the 7800 as I already pointed out as well. I read your blog, there was nothing more there to make it a 7800 title than there was here already or added by you afterward with your wall of text. Best of luck with whatever it is you are doing. 

[Greg2600]

I read your long response @juanitogan, and my question would simply be why are you developing it as a PC game at all?  I understand there's various logic in the game you're testing out, as well as the graphics and whatnot.  However, if your intention is 7800, would it make more sense to just develop directly for that?  There's 7800 Basic now, though I'm not sure what other tools are available.  I mean, won't you have to do quite a bit of work to port it anyway?  You're obviously not going to be able to monetize this at all on PC.  If you're more adept at the PC programming side, that's fine, but you might get lower interest from this community by going the PC route. 

 

PS: If you intend on PC development, the thread probably can just be moved to another sub-forum.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Greg2600

[juanitogan]

Hi, @Greg2600  Thanks for asking.  It was about feasibility testing.  I chose the tools where I believed I could test the idea the quickest.  Part of that plan proved out well, parts did not.  It's also about iteration.  Where am I going to experience the least iteration fatigue in order to develop the best possible product?  Games aren't like a business app where I can pretty solidly predict what works well and what doesn't.  People's emotions during gaming are much more finicky.  Tuning both game mechanics and art takes a lot of back-and-forth work where I often dump my best plans.  (I've played plenty of homebrew games that obviously don't take this work to the level I like to.  Why is that?  Maybe it's fatigue with unwieldy tools.)  I don't have anyone paying me to grind through that in difficult tools on projects that I have no stake in if they don't see the light of day, so I have to be smarter about it to keep my dev time down and projects focused.

 

Anyhow, after that initial feasibility testing, it was easy enough to just finish the rest of the testing and tuning in the tools where I had started.  It really is that much easier.

 

So, now, apparently, I am faced with a community that somehow doesn't find this to be a valid path towards developing a 7800 game because I've diverged away from the blessed tools in order to save time.  Yes, the 7800 port will be hard (and could be easier if there was a C compiler for it).  But, it will also be fairly straight forward because I now have well-documented 2600 code to draw from and a solid end goal.  I have, so far, produced a better game this way than I would have the sanctified way.  If people are upset because it is not "7800 first," well, okay.  I can live with that.  I can't please everyone.