How powerful was the cancelled Atari Panther compared to the Atari ST/Amiga?

[Leeroy ST]

17 hours ago, Hwlngmad said:

\While Atari Corp. did have some semblance of a home video game interest, it was a clear second fiddle to what they were trying to do with computers. \

No one said otherwise. Yet this keeps coming up, instead of the people going further than "second fiddle" and saying "NO I DIDN'T LIKE WHAT THEY HAD SO THE WERE NOT TRYING AND NEVER TRIED TO COMPETE AND DID NOTHING BUT SIT AT MCDONALDS WHILE HOUSE WAS ON FIRE" which didn't happen.

 

17 hours ago, mr_me said:

The losses were in 1985, likely due to hardware development costs of their 16/32-bit computer.  Atar Corp was profitable in 1986.

Yes, that's what I said.

 

17 hours ago, mr_me said:

I'll add that in the Michael Katz antic audio interview he talked about a project that Tramiel pulled the plug on at the last minute because he didn't want to commit the money on marketing and manufacturing.  He also said that they had a difficult time getting independent developers because they were afraid there wasn't going to be marketing behind it.  

Which is also the point I've been making for pages, they didn't have money and people though they didn't have money to do anything they said they were going to do because everyone else at the time also recognized they didn't have money. At first.

 

17 hours ago, mr_me said:

What video games did atari corp create in the 1980s?

What?

 

Are you saying the ST, 8-bits, 2600, 7800, XEGS, and Lynx didn't have any new games from Atari corp? What?

[mr_me]

On the contrary I said I know Atari Corp created games.  I'm asking what are they?

 

If a company doesn't have the funds to support its products properly; it's a failure of the company.  Warner has demonstrated it was willing to provide Atari Corp financial support through investment or loans. 

[Leeroy ST]

3 hours ago, mr_me said:

On the contrary I said I know Atari Corp created games.  I'm asking what are they?

 

If a company doesn't have the funds to support its products properly; it's a failure of the company.  Warner has demonstrated it was willing to provide Atari Corp financial support through investment or loans. 

I don't get your point, Atari Corp did fund their products properly and produced games, as DID Sega, both failed due to various circumstances compared to Nintendo.

[Lord Innit]

And now a short intermission

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

[ColecoKing]

zzip

Ms. Pacman" or "Crystal Castles", so if you wanted the bigger games, you were still paying full price.

That is not correct, the reason for crash is the whole industry was losing money, maybe one or two excluded niche somethings.

Ms.Pacman was in bargain bin at crash as was Pitfall 2, as was the Defender. Demand never dried up everyone was buying cheap games, retailers lost money some of them stop stocking games, which means that between losses on games and hardware and some retailers stopping games, it made it so that there were less buyers by default because there were less places to buy. This not difficult, crash of industry was because of price cuts, not ET. CV, Intv, 2600 all games slashed, developers had to catch up and slash their price because new standard for consumer and retailers would drop price anyway for unsold stock if price was kept up anyway.

[ColecoKing]

Mr_me

Pal colecovisions weren't introduced in europe until the second half of 1983 so those are ntsc colecovisions. What this suggests is that colecovisions sold well through 1983Q2 but had a disappointing Christmas 1983. The Atari 5200 might have had a strong Christmas 1983 and outsold colecovision in the united states for that quarter.

Atari killed the 5200 early in the year they just didn't tell investors or some of their own staff, and they didn't announced it publicly until they revealed the 7800 machine to replace it in April. That 1 million 5200 sales would have already been accounted for.

1983 Chicago Tribune

"This "Super System" was introduced last year and has been well-supported by Atari. If you are after arcade titles, this is probably the machine for you. Atari has introduced superb home versions of such popular arcade games as Pac-man (now packaged with all new systems), Ms. Pac-man, Qix, Missile Command, Pole Position and Jungle Hunt. And with MORE THAN A MILLION UNITS SOLD, several other quality software manufacturers have begun introducing other 5200-compatible games,"

So it already sold 1 million by December 1983, then quietly cancel it as they get rid of inventory until they reveal 7800 in April.

It is more likely that 5200 past CV for most of 1983 with Pac-man bundle and slew of arcade conversions which all arrived in 1983 after a slow 1982.

[mr_me]

How does the 5200 with 1M sales by end of 1983 pass colecovision sales with 1.4M by mid 1983?

 

What's the date of that chicago tribune article?

 

-----------

Not everyone was buying cheap games in 1983.  Where I was, new 1983 cartridges from Mattel Electronics were hard to find.  When I did find them, I paid full price like normal.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by mr_me

[ColecoKing]

You prove my point retailer taking out games made less sales by default, doesn't mean customers weren't interested.

I also gave you date, 1983 December.

It is likely you are quoting international sales for CV, Miami Herald, Iowas Gazette, St.louis dispatch all have same number 1.5 million CV 1984 sept, coleco rep say 2 million total sales, so 1.4 million is impossible for US.

CV also halt production in 1983

"One of the most surprising disclosures, however, was the report that coleco stopped producing it's Colecovision video game in the United States about a month ago. Coleco said it had halted UNited States production of Colecovision, the company's popular home video game, to make way for production of Adam. But Coleco said it planned to resume production of Colecovision early next year."

That was sept 1983, so a month before as they say would be Aug 1983. so impossible for CV to hit 1 million before 5200 in United states which is specified. Atari likely got ahead with big titles finally release and Pacman bundle then quit giving CV lead 1984.

[Leeroy ST]

Apparently according to Atari UK, the Panther was intended to release in 1992 with the Jaguar releasing 18 months later in 1994, however this was changed to "all in" Jaguar because progress on the Jaguar had caught up.

 

Considering how the Jaguar had missed it's 1993 launch with a test market of only 20,000 systems and took until 1994 to be fully released and to START receiving software, giving the $700 3DO a one year head start with 3x the software, plus the buggy tools, the bad dev kits, and lack of Jaguars manufactured to sell, I find it laughable Atari though the Jaguar was "ready" and was "ahead" in progress.

 

I actually think that would have been a good idea:

 

1. Release Panther in spring or Summer 1992 at a good price with it's specs and low 3D it can gain hype and sell well against SNES gen, maybe a few million or so. 18 months later release the Jaguar, have both run for around a year and allow developers to scale development to the Jaguar, both at great prices, 1995 Jaguar has a ton of software support, CD-add on to compete with 3DO/PSX, low low price, and the probably sell millions of consoles. Not to mention developers improving kits and finding ways around Jaguar architecture.

 

That's way better than what we ended up with.

[Leeroy ST]

In addition, this would allow Atari to grab several software makers with the Panther release which would transfer to the Jaguar and new comers will float to the Jaguar due to support making it harder for 3DO and PSX to grab as many third party games.

 

Why Atari though the Jaguar was ahead and "ready" and scrapped the dual console release is a mystery to me because the Jaguar clearly wasn't ready. 

[mr_me]

2 hours ago, ColecoKing said:

You prove my point retailer taking out games made less sales by default, doesn't mean customers weren't interested.

I also gave you date, 1983 December.

It is likely you are quoting international sales for CV, Miami Herald, Iowas Gazette, St.louis dispatch all have same number 1.5 million CV 1984 sept, coleco rep say 2 million total sales, so 1.4 million is impossible for US.

CV also halt production in 1983

"One of the most surprising disclosures, however, was the report that coleco stopped producing it's Colecovision video game in the United States about a month ago. Coleco said it had halted UNited States production of Colecovision, the company's popular home video game, to make way for production of Adam. But Coleco said it planned to resume production of Colecovision early next year."

That was sept 1983, so a month before as they say would be Aug 1983. so impossible for CV to hit 1 million before 5200 in United states which is specified. Atari likely got ahead with big titles finally release and Pacman bundle then quit giving CV lead 1984.


 

As I said before, pal colecovisions were introduced in europe after the 1.4M ntsc colecovisions of mid 1983.  The 1.4M ntsc colecovisions by mid 1983 is always greater than the 1M ntsc atari 5200.  These ntsc units were mostly in north america so colecovision outsold the atari 5200 in north america handily.

 

The Chicago Tribune is a daily newspaper.  Do you have a day of the month for the article?  Do you have a link to where you got the quote?

[ColecoKing]

Europe? Why you forget about Canada and Mexico? Simple explanation.

We are talking about United States, CV never sold 1 million before 5200 in United States.

I already quote 1.5 million in 1984 multiple times and 1 million 5200 q4 1983. I also gave you month for Chicago Tribute it was December and it was repeating news from 2 month earlier, the day was the 6th btw.

Here is another one from Philladelphia inquier in October 2nd 2 month earlier as I said in 83

"Recently Atari quietly began equipping new 5200 units with a supposedly improved version of the hand-controller that offers sefl-centering, a key feature that the previously sold hand-controllers lack... Unfortunately, that offers little solace to the more than one million consumers who purchased the system during the last year. Even the replacement hand-controllers sold in stores these days are the old version."

Atari sold 1 million 5200 by October 1983 and news repeat in Nov and Dec.

Best explanation? CV had head start with better launch year but then 5200 caught up and led.

It also helps that CV had 3 month head-start. CV released in July in US, 5200 was October. 5200 shipments also delayed shipments for 5200 at launch Miami Herald January 30 83

"And Atari helped, in part because of its delay in supplying it's second-generation Supergame, the 5200. According to Donald Tesler, manager of the game software designers' group, Atari wanted to offshore (read taiwan) production of the unit to keep costs competitive. "But it takes time to set that up," he said."

CV advantage hype and praise was because it was ahead of 5200 release and 5200 didn't supply enough units that year giving CV all the adoration.

Salt Lake Tribune August day of 26

"Even Atari is introducing a more sophisticated system - the Atari 5200 Home Entertainment system, which will become available in October."


See?

Edited September 27, 2020 by ColecoKing

[ColecoKing]

in 1983 Atari had caught up in systems and had the games out with big hits, Pacman came out earlier but breakout was bundle, they changed the bundle to Pacman in 83, wise decision.

Ms.pacman, Quic, Missile Command, Pole Position, Jungle Hunt also were some big titles mention around the time.


CV was supposed to be like NES and upgrade power over time never happens, a promise made near console launch that disappoint people and maybe contributed to 5200 run up and pass.

[mr_me]

The atari 5200 one million consoles would also include those sold in canada.  The canadian video game market is less than 10% of the united states and mexico is even smaller.  Even if you were to double the canadian share, colecovision United states sales by mid 1983 would have still exceeded atari 5200 worldwide lifetime sales.  It's possible atari 5200 outsold colecovisiom for 1983q4 but there's nothing I've seen to support it.

 

-------

What atari should have done is delayed the atari 2600 release of pacman, and promoted the atari 5200 pacman.  They would have sold millions of 5200 consoles.

Edited September 27, 2020 by mr_me

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

[ColecoKing]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

The atari 5200 one million consoles would also include those sold in canada.  The canadian video game market is less than 10% of the united states and mexico is even smaller.  Even if you were to double the canadian share, colecovision United states sales by mid 1983 would have still exceeded atari 5200 worldwide lifetime sales.  It's possible atari 5200 outsold colecovisiom for 1983q4 but there's nothing I've seen to support it.

 

-------

What atari should have done is delayed the atari 2600 release of pacman, and promoted the atari 5200 pacman.  They would have sold millions of 5200 consoles.

No they wouldn't it came out same year. If Pac was even half the system seller it should of already sold a couple million 5200s it did not. The installable already had 2600 that why it sell so well. 

 

Otherwise I dont understand your comprehension block.

 

You exclude Mexico and only memtion Canada?

 

Why you ignore that the source specify "5200 in United states" it is not including Canada. That is the October 1983 number.

 

Not that it matter Canada sales were insignificant. That why from then until public cancellation Atari only reported still 1 million consoles so it clearly not sold much more than that cumulatively.

 

You have many proof already shown to you what's wrong?

 

CV only did 1.5 million in us by fall in q4 1984. 1.5 in 83 is impossible with nearly not other parroting source than the one you had. Coleco mention 2 million international sales that same time. 

 

5200 sold 1 million first nothing to it. That's it the case has been solved. 

 

CV had 3 month head start and Atari had supply issues that is where CV got it's attention. But 5200 quickly caught up in 83. CV also stop production temp. All it's right there.

 

I personally believe CV have better games but it clear newcomer will have problems dealing with bigger brand. It still won in the end because of early cancellation. But before that it was 2nd place.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by ColecoKing

[mr_me]

I didn't exclude mexico, I said the mexican video game market is smaller than canada.

 

10 hours ago, ColecoKing said:

1983 Chicago Tribune

"This "Super System" was introduced last year and has been well-supported by Atari. If you are after arcade titles, this is probably the machine for you. Atari has introduced superb home versions of such popular arcade games as Pac-man (now packaged with all new systems), Ms. Pac-man, Qix, Missile Command, Pole Position and Jungle Hunt. And with MORE THAN A MILLION UNITS SOLD, several other quality software manufacturers have begun introducing other 5200-compatible games,"

Your quote doesn't say US sales nor does the 1984 washington post article that also says 1M atari 5200 consoles.  We can assume it's all US sales because it doesn't make a difference.

 

We have 1.4M ntsc colecovisions in mid 1983.  We don't have specific 1982/83 colecovision sales data for canada, mexico, or us.  But estimate 10% canada at 121k, 5% mexico at 61k.  Even if you were to double the canadian and mexican estimates that still leaves more than 1M US colecovisions and its only mid 1983 with six months more sales to add to the total.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/08/01/business/coleco-strong-in-marketing.html

 

Actually with the numbers being referenced in the various articles it looks like neither the atari 5200 or colecovision sold many units for the 1983 christmas season.  Reports have the atari 5200 at 1M in october 1983, again in december 1983, and still 1M in march 1984.

 

The articles being referenced look interesting, do you have links to the complete text?

[phoenixdownita]

What are we talking about here?

Was Atari trying to sabotage its own consoles? Was it just trying to stay afloat?

Had my grandmother carried a pair made her my grandfather?

What's the matter with you?

 

Once you no longer know what the thread is about and just try to win an argument, any argument, then you know you just lost a chance to stay silent, I know as I am usually affected by the same illness ... I call it "but-I-will-get-a-point"-ities ...

as one comedian put it ... "next time you have a thought ...... let it go!"

[zzip]

On 9/25/2020 at 5:21 PM, Hwlngmad said:

I think Atari Corp. did give it the 'old college try' with home video games with the Atari 2600 Jr., 7800, and XEGS.

The problem here is lack of focus and strategy.  2600jr was because 2600 was still selling.  The 7800 only cost a little more and was backwards compatible, so maybe they should have stuck to that instead?   Keep the 2600jr in for third world like they said they were going to do in the first place.   Then the XEGS is directly competing with the 7800.   I understand that the XEGS made sense for the UK,  maybe they should have kept it for UK and not sold it in North America too?

 

  Atari needed to go against the competition with a single gaming platform,  not spread their efforts thin on 3 different ones.

 

On 9/25/2020 at 5:59 PM, mr_me said:

Successful or not, video game companies create their own games.  What video games did atari corp create in the 1980s?

If you look at the list of games that Atari Corp published in the 80s, and remove everything they inherited from Warner or republished from another publisher, there isn't much original content left--  "Barnyard blaster" to promote the light gun,  and Crack'ed and a few sports games are the only ones I see for the 7800.

[zzip]

On 9/26/2020 at 11:20 AM, Leeroy ST said:

No one said otherwise. Yet this keeps coming up, instead of the people going further than "second fiddle"

What are you talking about?   Video games being 'second fiddle' to Atari Corp has been my entire argument.  You are the one disputing it at every point.

[ColecoKing]

phoenixdownita

Honestly I just want excuse to argue about CV and 5200 I don't really know what OP arguing about. Just like back in the days,

[ColecoKing]

mr_me

Actually with the numbers being referenced in the various articles it looks like neither the atari 5200 or colecovision sold many units for the 1983 christmas season. Reports have the atari 5200 at 1M in october 1983, again in december 1983, and still 1M in march 1984.

The articles being referenced look interesting, do you have links to the complete text?

No, even I admit as big Coleco fan that 5200 and CV hype very artificial. They just cost way too much and both were really slow with games at start. Sure Coleco had Smurf and Donkey and others while 5200 came out later and was delayed with few games in 1982. But they never had the libraries to drive big sales from start they cost way too much and the games cost more on average as well.

Here is article of even 5200 and CV raising the price

"Coleco will raise price of it's Colecovision video game and Adam computer by at least $50 or more. Dealer prices of Atari's 2600 Video Computer will rise to $100 from $70, and it's 5200 Super System game will rise to $150 from $125."

So games already more expensive from start, then they start out at high price and then they raise the price more because Adam and Atari computer price wars bleeding blood red in the bank. Which also mean Coleco was crazy, take rushed risk in computer without quality control and they entered with low price taking loss at first.

Here is Chicago Tribune in November 1983

"
Gemini console - $59.99 Reg - $79.99
Super video arcade (sears) - $79.99 Reg - $99.99
Atari 2600 video arcade - $84.99 reg - $89.99
Ventrix video arcade - $89.99 reg - $99.99
Coleco Vision video arcade - $129.99 reg - $159.99
5200 video arcade - $149.99 reg - $159.99


Notice the regular prices those are the prices you see throughout the year, the lower prices were only because it was the holiday season. You can see that with regular pricing a Gemini or 2600 Atari or Sears, would cost 60 or 80 dollars less on average.

It is only just then in 1983 both consoles picked up in game library and their games would cost between 10-30 more depending on the quality of the title, than the 2600 or intellivision versions. Even Vectrix games were cheaper on average. It will be really hard to sell millions of consoles with a modest library of games at near double the price with higher cost for games, especially when 1984 starts as the prices for the large library of 2600 and intellivision drop even more and you are still paying $129.99 and 10 to 20 dollars more per game for new console.

If CV and 5200 wanted to sell break out millions of units they would have had to cost no more than $100, maybe that would also still allow them to charge more per game but no more than 10 more. 5200 cancelled quietly in early 1984 and only publicly announce in April months later, they already sent the last shipment by october 1983 million announcement they were dealing with inventory they already had for months and they still sold so little that they still only announce 1 million sold 6 months later!

CV had to result to giving away free cabbage patch kids to pick up sales without dropping the price.

My newspaper site doesn't give direct links you pay then sign up and they show it to you, you can even print it but that may cost extra I'll check, but they don't give you specific link which is annoying because I wanted to use it for some of the video game wikis out there and wikipedia itself but they won't take anything they don't want stubborn mules.

[zzip]

18 minutes ago, ColecoKing said:

It is only just then in 1983 both consoles picked up in game library and their games would cost between 10-30 more depending on the quality of the title, than the 2600 or intellivision versions. Even Vectrix games were cheaper on average. It will be really hard to sell millions of consoles with a modest library of games at near double the price with higher cost for games, especially when 1984 starts as the prices for the large library of 2600 and intellivision drop even more and you are still paying $129.99 and 10 to 20 dollars more per game for new console.

Those 1983 prices are already quite lower than prices in 1982 and earlier.   We got our 2600 in 82, and I remember the price being over $100.  ($129 I think).   5200 launched at over $200 and CV launched closer to $200.    The 2600 sold quite well > $100,  so the prices you quote above should have been fine to sell those systems.

[ColecoKing]

zzip

1982 year earlier Toys R us

Atari 2600 - $128.97
Atari 5200 - $199.97
Colecovison - $189.97
Commodore Vic 20 -$179.87
Intellivision - $149.99 with rebate, otherwise 199.99
Odyssey 2 - $138.86

This in 1982, Coleco had 3 month head start on 5200 but still had short library with Donkey Kong, Smurf and some arcade titles holding the fort, 5200 has supply delay had even less library available. CV was in July 5200 was in October, and these toys r us prices are in November holiday season. Games often 20 dolllars or 15 dollars more on new systems.

Why would I buy 5200 in droves with barely any software same for CV? I can get 2600 with a ton of software some of which are cheap and dropped in price over the years, same with Intelliviion and Odyssey 2, the latter being cheaper than everything else and I can learn the basic during college or use it to educate kids? You seem to have problem looking at pricing which why you don't get price wars led to crash,

Than you have Vic-20 also cheaper than both consoles with larger software library of games.

In 1983 the situation didn't change much. Prices drop a bit and CV and 5200 finally have more software but still pail compared to 2600. I listed those prices above

Gemini console - $59.99 Reg - $79.99
Super video arcade (sears) - $79.99 Reg - $99.99
Atari 2600 video arcade - $84.99 reg - $89.99
Ventrix video arcade - $89.99 reg - $99.99
Coleco Vision video arcade - $129.99 reg - $159.99
5200 video arcade - $149.99 reg - $159.99


Gemini, Sears, and 2600 all under $100 even with regular price outside of holiday all with access to 2600 software many of which are cheap. New Vectrix experience also under $100.

CV and 5200 still have more expensive games still half way toward $200 with better but still limited software titles this is November 1983 one year later and the CV is about to halt production for Adam and 5200 already planning to pull out by the start of the next year in a couple months.

In order for CV and 5200 to sell much better than they did they need a lower price for console, lower or same price for games, or both. They would also need more software and Atari specifically would have to start dialing down support for 2600 instead it got more support, Coleco making Gemini while not as badly, also did some split of base.

Only reason CV survive until 85 is because 5200 drop out and they didn't have to compete so they could lapse investment and coast and they were already planning to cut CV at some point they just wanted to see how far they could go with minimal investment once 1985 started while also supporting software only for failed Adam which they should not have.

Even 5200 bundled with pacman win against CV but only help, with other games, take it to 1 million by October 1983 and then they start to take it off with last shipment and then cut price twice for inventory and they announce public cancellation in 1984 spring they still only have sold 1 million official numbers and that was with CV halting production for a few months.

They just did not have the pries and library to convince people to upgrade.

Same problem with Sega and Atari in late 80's. They had console with games, Sega moreso, they had the power, but NES software un fair or not,t hey had a lot of it and eventually had tiered prices every year for previous year games and kept study price cuts.

Sega and Atari they had everything more powerful in many way to NES, some nice conversions of arcade popular games, decently affordable, but no one thought of reason to upgrade. Even older or teen audience who did not go to NES did not touch Sega or Atari console other than 2600 junior.

This is why Sega could do nothing to change fate, but Atari could have if Atari, and I say this before in this thread, they messed up keeping 2600 around. They needed to remove the 2600 off the scene or have junior be limited shipment celebration console and then remove it after a year. 7800 needed that BC and looking at software sales on Atari age that was big part of appeal early on for 7800.

7800 sales in by end of 1987 top 5 best selling

1. Ms pacman 142,000
2. Centipede 106,000
3. Dig Dug 104,000
4. Food Fight 98,000
5. Xevious 96,000

This not that bad but not very good either, the BC was big deal, they hurt themselves.

2600 also hurt CV and 5200, as did their prices for hardware, and games, and slowly growing library. Lack of price drop would end up competing with some computers which was also big deal.