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What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?


bluejay

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2 hours ago, youxia said:

Quite a roundabout way of saying "buy C64!" :)

 

As for the exclusive list it'd have hundreds of titles. And that's only the significant ones.

Again, I don't know if that's strictly true. True exclusives, as in a game not ported from arcade or elsewhere, or ported to elsewhere, are surprisingly rare, ESPECIALLY when it comes to what would be considered major release games. 

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17 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Genuine question, but how do you figure? It has worse sound and only 5 levels versus the 16 on the other versions. It does have a big advantage in one way and that is that it's on a ROM cartridge rather than a disk, so no load times (it also happens to be the one version I still own boxed - in fact, my current copy is still sealed).

No, I have to retract that statement.  After posting I went to look it up as I got the tune caught in my head, and it was not the CoCo version I was thinking of.

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29 minutes ago, IntelliMission said:

One thing that has surprised me about the CoCo is that, unlike the Commodore 64, Amstrad CPC, ZX Spectrum, MSX and a few others, it had about 10 Sierra graphic adventures (the first 4 King's Quests, Space Quest I and II, Larry...).

Actually, only King's Quest III: To Heir is Human and Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards were officially released on the CoCo 3 and both required 512K to run. It was part of the same deal that brought Silpheed and Thexder to the CoCo (of course, even though Sierra had a prior relationship with Tandy I don't think it would have gotten those 4 games without serious subsidization from Tandy). Any other Sierra games or games that run on that engine were fan converted. Outside of consoles, I think the only other 8-bit computer Sierra supported with their King's Quest-era adventure games was the Apple II. I think that was at the behest of Ken Williams, who had a fondness for the platform, despite the struggle to make it work on the Apple II and 128K of RAM.

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The CoCo had exclusives, but it's going to be titles most people have never heard of.
It was supported mostly by small game distributors like Tom Mix Software, Spectral Associates, Mark Data Products, Computerware, Ardvark-80,  etc...
If you dig out an old Rainbow magazine, you find quite a few unique titles buried among the arcade clones, but few of them are even on the archive.

 

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On 9/23/2020 at 3:30 PM, Bill Loguidice said:

Not really comparable in my opinion. The North American BBC Micro didn't sell a lick. I'm no expert on the European market, but I'm pretty sure Atari software was at least somewhat available and the platform somewhat supported over there. The vast majority of people never saw or even heard of the American version of the BBC Micro. I think there might have only been one obscure magazine ad as well and no other advertising. I'm not really sure what their plan was to sell over here, but whatever it was, it wasn't a good one.

Acorn relied on the BBC to do their marketing for them which fated them to the British education market.  They created a brilliant machine with upgrade paths that the Commodore hobbyists would have loved (support for co-processors, mix and match ROM sockets for various programming languages and utilities, BASIC language with built-in assembler) but they failed to advertise the system's potential.

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5 hours ago, English Invader said:

Acorn relied on the BBC to do their marketing for them which fated them to the British education market.  They created a brilliant machine with upgrade paths that the Commodore hobbyists would have loved (support for co-processors, mix and match ROM sockets for various programming languages and utilities, BASIC language with built-in assembler) but they failed to advertise the system's potential.

I have several BBC Micros in my collection still, including a Master. I really like them and have a fondness for the default font and text adventures, but even with better advertising, distribution, and pricing, I just don't see it making much of an impact in the US market. It wasn't great as an overall games machine and there were several other well-established choices for systems that were easy to expand and/or use for productivity purposes. Still, definitely classy systems.

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Here's another interesting thing I just discovered about the TRS-80 "CoCo" computers:

 

- The up and down arrows next to the "Q" and "A" keys AND the left and right arrows very close to the "O" and "P" keys were already present in the first model (1980):

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2Ocj4t8Uc6mbwwwyBJIM

 

Which is funny, because O, P, Q, A or O, P, A, Z was the most common key configuration in computer video games in the 80s (at least in action video games for the Amstrad CPC!). So I wonder if this is where "O, P, Q, A" (or "O, P, A, Z" was born).

 

And what's even more impresive: the CoCo Model One could play 4K* games!

 

*of RAM

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11 minutes ago, IntelliMission said:

And what's even more impresive: the CoCo Model One could play 4K* games!

 

*of RAM

The funnest of fun facts to me in terms of the 4K CoCo is that it played host to two of the first ever cartridge games that produced speech without any type of add-on: Dino Wars and Skiing. Both have 1980 copyrights, but most likely weren't physically available until 1981. That's still extremely early. Dino Wars works great (not that it's a great game per se) within the 4K RAM limit, but Skiing, while it works with just 4K, is better with 16K of RAM.

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8 hours ago, English Invader said:

Acorn relied on the BBC to do their marketing for them which fated them to the British education market.  They created a brilliant machine with upgrade paths that the Commodore hobbyists would have loved (support for co-processors, mix and match ROM sockets for various programming languages and utilities, BASIC language with built-in assembler) but they failed to advertise the system's potential.

 

True.  They were also more expensive than nearly all of their competition at the time, which didn't help matters - and that was a pattern that continued throughout their lifespan.  In some ways, it opened doors for the ZX Spectrum, various Amstrads, and C64 to come in at the price points they did.

 

Having said that, the hardware architecture really was very nice, and BBC BASIC was absolutely brilliant for supporting in-line procedural programming (as well as the assembler).  Overall, an extremely well-thought-out machine; it's just a pity that it was never aimed at the mass market in the ways that it could have been.

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I might suggest a TRS-80 Model 100. It’s compact; it’s durable; it has a built-in screen; it auto-saves your work, & it has an easy, menu-driven OS.

 

It’s not really a games machine, but it has BASIC, so you can program/port your own stuff for fun, if that’s what your into. And if you don’t like working with computers, why would you buy a retrocomputer?

 

(I need to see if I can get mine working again. :()

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29 minutes ago, pacman000 said:

I might suggest a TRS-80 Model 100. It’s compact; it’s durable; it has a built-in screen; it auto-saves your work, & it has an easy, menu-driven OS.

 

It’s not really a games machine, but it has BASIC, so you can program/port your own stuff for fun, if that’s what your into. And if you don’t like working with computers, why would you buy a retrocomputer?

 

(I need to see if I can get mine working again. :()

They're wonderful machines and served a real purpose back in the day, but they're definitely not for the casual user.

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1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

They're wonderful machines and served a real purpose back in the day, but they're definitely not for the casual user.

The only thing bad about the T-series laptops is the tiny dot-matrix LCD, which results in a poor game library. They were mostly aimed at businessmen that had to frequently move around and had to have a computer with them.

But if you think about it, they're fast, user friendly, has a great BASIC and are cheap(the 100 and 102, at least). I'd definitely recommend these laptops if their purpose is less gaming and more learning how properly use a retro computer.

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10 minutes ago, bluejay said:

The only thing bad about the T-series laptops is the tiny dot-matrix LCD, which results in a poor game library. They were mostly aimed at businessmen that had to frequently move around and had to have a computer with them.

But if you think about it, they're fast, user friendly, has a great BASIC and are cheap(the 100 and 102, at least). I'd definitely recommend these laptops if their purpose is less gaming and more learning how properly use a retro computer.

Again, there's nothing wrong with them and they're fun to use for a certain type of person, but I don't see the advantage for a newbie retro computer enthusiast. The screen is relatively small (and interfacing with external screens and drives are a challenge) and the functionality relatively limited in comparison to the other options out there. Things like the REX that make it easier to use with modern machines also aren't easily available anymore. It's just not something I would ever recommend for someone just starting out. It's more for someone who wants to dabble in a unique-for-the-time form factor.

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2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Again, there's nothing wrong with them and they're fun to use for a certain type of person, but I don't see the advantage for a newbie retro computer enthusiast. The screen is relatively small (and interfacing with external screens and drives are a challenge) and the functionality relatively limited in comparison to the other options out there. Things like the REX that make it easier to use with modern machines also aren't easily available anymore. It's just not something I would ever recommend for someone just starting out. It's more for someone who wants to dabble in a unique-for-the-time form factor.

That's true. Most likely if you're getting into the world of retro computing then you'd want something that's actually more fun and usable. The Tandy laptops are rather business oriented and relatively not very exciting. It would be suitable for someone who already has another computer for fun, and want to get into BASIC programming, BBSing, or all the other, more serious stuff that the T-series laptops are capable of.

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17 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

but I don't see the advantage for a newbie retro computer enthusiast.

The stock model can be a lot of fun:

 

Terminal for other system, or interface with microcontroller

 

Note taking in meetings

 

Awesome calculator.  Just learn a little BASIC and it's super powerful.

 

A little more BASIC and it's a nice data logger.  One example might be fetching values from measurement tools.

 

There is a big overlap between electronics and retrocomputing too.

 

For a while, I had one on my desk at work and did use it in meetings.  Had another tech get one.  Used it for the terminal, and similar note taking antics.

 

"how long does it run"

 

"Like 40 hours on current batteries"

 

"da-fuq?"

 

Back in the day, these tasks were reasonable.  Anyone wanting to retrocompute beyond playing some games?  Tasks are still reasonable.

 

For someone wanting to program some, do a few things?  Yeah, these little machines are great.  I would not underrate portability in these mobile times.  That's the best feature!  And these machines are great portables.  I've shown mine off, and had someone borrow it writing goofy fun programs.  Perfect!  That's all part of retro.

 

In my view, it's about sharing the tech.  People vary extremely widely.  Honestly, you never know what might get someone interested.  I tend to share what I got and let the conversation flow.  Do that, and they will get a "great first retrocomputer"

 

 

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44 minutes ago, potatohead said:

The stock model can be a lot of fun:

 

<snip>

 

In my view, it's about sharing the tech.  People vary extremely widely.  Honestly, you never know what might get someone interested.  I tend to share what I got and let the conversation flow.  Do that, and they will get a "great first retrocomputer"

 

 

 

To each their own, but as much as I like the Model 100/102/200, in my opinion there are too many hassles to work around and it's not something I'd ever recommend to a first-time retro computer user, especially not one with the points raised by the OP in the first post.

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At the end of the day you can spin permutations round and round but the best bang for your buck and best bet for an easy life will be a Commodore, Atari or Apple. It's the path of least resistance. Plus you will have access to modern solutions, technical support and the chat room won't be just you and some other guy. If you are in the UK then add ZX Spectrum to the list, maybe Amstrad. 

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46 minutes ago, Arnuphis said:

At the end of the day you can spin permutations round and round but the best bang for your buck and best bet for an easy life will be a Commodore, Atari or Apple. It's the path of least resistance. Plus you will have access to modern solutions, technical support and the chat room won't be just you and some other guy. If you are in the UK then add ZX Spectrum to the list, maybe Amstrad. 

Well said. Again, everything is going to have a learning curve if you're not previously familiar with a platform (or relative experience from the era), but there are certain platforms like the US/European ones you mentioned that have stood the test of time and have insane (and it really is bonkers) levels of support today in every way imaginable that gives them advantages over second-, third-, fourth-, etc., tier choices that are also great in their own way, but just can't match up for a variety of reasons.

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I believe the best machine will depend on what the person is interested in. And questions will have to be asked to narrow it down to one or two choices. And whatever the choice, there's always more to come. Most of us had more than one machine back in the day anyways.

 

I would also add PC to the choices of Atari, Commodore, Apple. PC because it's so well documented, has the most software of anything, has many entry/purchase points, is the most expandable, covers a 40+ year timespan, and can be worked on (electrically) at the component level or board level.

 

As far as documentation and support? Well there is no question that the internet provides it in spades & droves. So much more is available today than in the 80's and 90's even if the original manufacturers are long gone. Today we have abandonware sites, extensive forums like VOGONS or AtariAge, FTP repositories, and practically every bit of documentation has been scanned. Not to mention the hobbyist supported mods and upgrades. Did I mention replacement parts and ebay? Not much of this was easily available back in the day.. But today? Whoooaah!

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19 hours ago, Arnuphis said:

At the end of the day you can spin permutations round and round but the best bang for your buck and best bet for an easy life will be a Commodore, Atari or Apple. It's the path of least resistance. Plus you will have access to modern solutions, technical support and the chat room won't be just you and some other guy. If you are in the UK then add ZX Spectrum to the list, maybe Amstrad. 

I agree with you.  Getting a Commodore, Atari, and/or an Apple machine from back in the day are going to take you very far.  And like you said, if you live in other parts of the world, a ZX Spectrum would be a good choice.  Not sure about the Amstrad on a world wide scale, but definitely a machine to look into if one is living in the UK along with the BBC Micro and/or Acorn Electron imo.

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