What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?

[youxia]

11 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Again, the MSX series is a great platform, but, regardless of region, it's still not going to match up well with the top dogs like the C-64, ZX Spectrum, Atari 8-bit, Apple II, etc., in terms of depth, breadth, and quality of software and available add-ons and accessories. As nice as it is, you'd have a hard time convincing me the MSX belongs as a tier 1 system choice. It's definitely a great choice if you already had the platform in mind, but definitely not going in fresh to retro computing.

I wasn't pitting it against the top dogs, or trying to convince anybody it should be their 1st retro system (definitely a bad idea). I was simply answering a very particular comment about only buying certain machines in certain regions (also a bad idea).

 

11 hours ago, Arnuphis said:

Well it makes sense to buy Spectrum or CPC machines if you live in the UK as they have PAL displays and the PSUs are 220v so if you buy them in a region where that is not the standard then you have an extra hurdle to overcome. 

 

I am sure the MSX is a great machine but I suspect blind favoritism in the continued championing of it above a more objective view in what would would be a good choice for a person new to retro computing who wanted something to see what all the fuss was about.

 

PAL is not exclusive to UK. Modern displays can mostly handle it as well, no matter the region. The PSU difference can also be easily remedied. Of course, I wouldn't exactly recommend it to a a newbie, plz see above.

 

9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this comment.  The MSX never reached the level of popularity in Ireland or the UK that it did elsewhere in Europe - in those countries, it was typically the ZX Spectrum, Commodore (VIC-20 or, later, the C64), and - specifically in the UK - Amstrad that saw the most sales success.

You missed the "latter" in "Here in Europe the latter are very popular across the whole continent", in regard to ZX & CPC. I've never claimed MSX was very popular in Europe, merely stating it's possible to buy some add ons and have repairs done now.

 

C'mon guys. Was there something anti-reading comprehension in the air yesterday?

 

[Bill Loguidice]

9 hours ago, Keatah said:

 

I want to argue that cracked disks are just as important to Apple II history as anything original. A massive subculture arose around cracked software. Just the intro-screens are a big stink all by themselves. And I also want to argue that CS is more versatile than protected original disks. CS can be transferred around so much easier and is supported everywhere. Easier to get screenshots from, easier to cheat and train, easier to put on a vintage HDD. Back in the day I had (still have it) a Sider 10MB HDD, and you couldn't put protected stuff on it. But thanks to CS I had a nice set of 150-200 games going. Part of my lame-O arcade@home project.

Oh, they're hugely important on most platforms, but the reality is some cracked games were modified in some way or their default states differ from new in the box. Having the original state option is definitely nice.

[Bill Loguidice]

11 hours ago, JamesD said:

Okay, just to be clear... a "few hundred bucks" is okay to buy an Apple IIe... but not a CoCo 3 setup?
I realize the asking prices for CoCo 3's currently listed on ebay are nuts, but if you ask on a facebook CoCo group you can probably pick one up for a much more reasonable price.
Some of the CoCo hoarders have dozens of CoCos they might be willing to let go of.
 

I'd argue that you're looking at a bigger investment optimizing a CoCo 3 setup than you are optimizing an Apple IIe setup. I wouldn't necessarily recommend a CoCo over an Apple II either. I like and own quite a bit of stuff for both platforms, but the Apple II series has much more software and is cheaper to set up a system with a monitor, a few disk drives, and other add-ons. You'd really have to have a reason for wanting a CoCo 3 in my opinion. It's just not a tier 1 retro computer in the usual way we might classify such things, e.g., community size, resource size, available hardware and accessories, available software, etc.

For a good CoCo 3 setup, at minimum, I'd recommend a CoCo 3, 512K memory expansion, an RGB monitor or converter (and an ability to switch to a composite signal for artifacting; I'm lucky in that I can use my Commodore 1084S and have both RGB and composite inputs active at the same time), joystick, a Multi Pak Interface, and a CoCo SDC. 

 

For a good Apple IIe setup, at minimum, I'd recommend 128K of memory (either comes with or expanded), some type of composite display, a 3.5mm audio cable, and a joystick. It's easy enough to add 1 or 2 disk drives, and, to evolve beyond the 3.5mm audio cable to stream software, some type of flash drive.

Of course, if you're focused on games, the CoCo 3 almost always has better graphics for native CoCo 3 software. For CoCo 1/2 software, it's pretty much a wash. The big difference of course is that the Apple II has a massive library that contains all the top software from back in the day, something the CoCo series can't claim.

The best answer is if you're really into classic computing and gaming, explore (and own) multiple platforms. If you're more casual, probably start with emulation to see what catches your interest and then start to dip your toes into simple setups with the real hardware (which I'll be the first to say can be costly and a challenge to maintain/keep running at times - plus there's ALWAYS something more to buy).

[JamesD]

14 hours ago, desiv said:

Not quite sure what you are saying there..

If you thought what Bill and I were implying was that the Apple II would connect to the internet by itself and then somehow download the game via audio... then.. yeah..  that's not how that works...

You do need a "host computer" (I kind of thought that was a given) although that can be a PC or phone or tablet.  Just about anything that can get to the site and has an audio jack.

But with any host device (I use my Android phone), I select a game I want to play, I type LOAD on the Apple II, I hit play on my phone, the game loads, and I can then play the game.  That feels like the game loading directly from that site to me...

I didn't need any floppy/hard drive emulators to buy.  No serial cables (Null, which version, etc) to buy.  No figuring out why the latest version of Java doesn't like the USB serial adapter I have.  Just an audio cable (3.5mm), of which I still have several.

 

Apple Game Server Online doesn't support serial, but it was inspired by a Java program that was serial.  Apple II Game Server.  Which is kind of still out there (in that you can still find it), but it's java is so old, it doesn't want to work with modern javas.

Also, ADTPro supports serial and audio both.

It wasn't a statement about what you or Bill were saying, I was saying ADTPro didn't let you load direct from the game server website. 
Yes, I'd forgotten ADTPro supports audio.
And serial connections aren't that hard to get set up.

Some USB serial adapters have a driver issue because they are knock offs of someone else's product, and the manufacturer found a way to break the clones in the driver.
Not saying that's what your issue is, but it might be.
It's good to look at reviews, and what people have already gotten to work on a setup like this before you buy a USB to RS-232 adapter for sure.

 

[potatohead]

22 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I'm definitely biased when it comes to productivity and old computers.

Totally.  I do write on older computers, and it's because the experience tends to color the writing in a way I find enjoyable and creative.  I do use my Model 100 as a calculator, quick bang it out tool at times.  That's because I wrote the programs back then, and they still do the job today.  I do not do that often.

 

Most are going to want to game.

 

Some will want to do electronics type stuff.

 

Re:  Apple and $$$

 

http://www.applerescueofdenver.com/products-page/computers-apple-ii/apple-iie-platinum-w-extended-keyboard/

 

They have consistently sold pretty great machines at a reasonable cost.  Recommended.  $150 gets you an //e platinum with the basics ready to go.

 

Re:  For the longer haul:

 

Apple by a mile, especially the Plus.  New boards are being made, and it's a very open design.  Will be fixable for a long time.  

 

Re:  Disks vs emulation

 

If you have floppy disks, ADT is amazing!  Love it.  I have a CFFA and am more or less hooked.  If I had to choose, I would take anything that I can put an SD or USB thumb drive in because CiderPress is also amazing, and how I get writing off an Apple for use elsewhere.

 

For composite, 90's era CRT's are really good.  If you open the back and have a little know how, or can get hold of someone who does, most of those sets can be tweaked into pretty damn good performance.

 

 

[desiv]

46 minutes ago, JamesD said:

And serial connections aren't that hard to get set up.

Some USB serial adapters have a driver issue because they are knock offs of someone else's product, and the manufacturer found a way to break the clones in the driver.
Not saying that's what your issue is, but it might be.
It's good to look at reviews, and what people have already gotten to work on a setup like this before you buy a USB to RS-232 adapter for sure.

In general I agree that serial isn't that hard to set up (but to be fair, I've been doing serial connections since working on phone systems in the late 90's, so they are pretty easy for me; less so for some people, based on reading threads from people asking for help on serial cabling).

That said, things can happen to make it more complicated.

For instance, I brought up Java because there is a known issue with the newer versions of Java and ADTPro.

David (the author or ADTPro) is (or has been; I haven't looked in the last couple of weeks) recommending to people having issues to downgrade their Java a bit and that is working.

That happened to me when I was working on getting it set up again recently, and it took me a bit to find the issue (I was assuming it was a USB driver issue or something).

I know it wasn't the USB adapter tho, because I went to a Win10 machine with serial on board to test, and the same problem.  That's when I started checking and found the newer Java/ADTPro issue. 

Downgraded Java and it works great.

(Someone posted on AppleFritter that his 32bit newer Java worked for him.  I haven't tried that yet. (as I got it working))

 

Audio is pretty simple.  One 3.5mm to 3.5mm wire.

That said, even audio can be tricky tho.  For instance, you need to get your volume right (maximum on my phone).  And make sure any device you are using won't also play notification audio while you are trying to load a game. 

But anyone who used audio tapes back in the day (not counting Commodore, as that 1531 was pretty solid) knows all about audio and volume levels for data.  

So that in itself is also retro.

 

But I've seen a lot more issues with people trying to get serial to work on forums...  It used to be Null vs non-Null (and type of Null).  More recently, it's been USB-serial adapters, especially with the FTDI clones/drivers..  But that seems to be settling down I think...

Personally, I prefer serial.  But there is something that impresses me watching an Apple II bootstrap over audio...

 

[JamesD]

2 hours ago, potatohead said:

Totally.  I do write on older computers, and it's because the experience tends to color the writing in a way I find enjoyable and creative.  I do use my Model 100 as a calculator, quick bang it out tool at times.  That's because I wrote the programs back then, and they still do the job today.  I do not do that often.

 

Most are going to want to game.

 

Some will want to do electronics type stuff.

 

Re:  Apple and $$$

 

http://www.applerescueofdenver.com/products-page/computers-apple-ii/apple-iie-platinum-w-extended-keyboard/

 

They have consistently sold pretty great machines at a reasonable cost.  Recommended.  $150 gets you an //e platinum with the basics ready to go.

 

Re:  For the longer haul:

 

Apple by a mile, especially the Plus.  New boards are being made, and it's a very open design.  Will be fixable for a long time.  

 

Re:  Disks vs emulation

 

If you have floppy disks, ADT is amazing!  Love it.  I have a CFFA and am more or less hooked.  If I had to choose, I would take anything that I can put an SD or USB thumb drive in because CiderPress is also amazing, and how I get writing off an Apple for use elsewhere.

 

For composite, 90's era CRT's are really good.  If you open the back and have a little know how, or can get hold of someone who does, most of those sets can be tweaked into pretty damn good performance.

 

 

If you can get a good 128K IIe platinum for $150, that's a pretty good deal, but it looks like the remaining units from that link have yellowing bad enough to call it severe, or even refer to it as orange.
I notice they sell IIc machines for $120, so that could be a cheap option.

 

6 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I'd argue that you're looking at a bigger investment optimizing a CoCo 3 setup than you are optimizing an Apple IIe setup. I wouldn't necessarily recommend a CoCo over an Apple II either. I like and own quite a bit of stuff for both platforms, but the Apple II series has much more software and is cheaper to set up a system with a monitor, a few disk drives, and other add-ons. You'd really have to have a reason for wanting a CoCo 3 in my opinion. It's just not a tier 1 retro computer in the usual way we might classify such things, e.g., community size, resource size, available hardware and accessories, available software, etc.

For a good CoCo 3 setup, at minimum, I'd recommend a CoCo 3, 512K memory expansion, an RGB monitor or converter (and an ability to switch to a composite signal for artifacting; I'm lucky in that I can use my Commodore 1084S and have both RGB and composite inputs active at the same time), joystick, a Multi Pak Interface, and a CoCo SDC. 

 

For a good Apple IIe setup, at minimum, I'd recommend 128K of memory (either comes with or expanded), some type of composite display, a 3.5mm audio cable, and a joystick. It's easy enough to add 1 or 2 disk drives, and, to evolve beyond the 3.5mm audio cable to stream software, some type of flash drive.

Of course, if you're focused on games, the CoCo 3 almost always has better graphics for native CoCo 3 software. For CoCo 1/2 software, it's pretty much a wash. The big difference of course is that the Apple II has a massive library that contains all the top software from back in the day, something the CoCo series can't claim.

The best answer is if you're really into classic computing and gaming, explore (and own) multiple platforms. If you're more casual, probably start with emulation to see what catches your interest and then start to dip your toes into simple setups with the real hardware (which I'll be the first to say can be costly and a challenge to maintain/keep running at times - plus there's ALWAYS something more to buy).

Looking at costs...

The IIc, IIc Plus, and IIGS do not have the cassette audio jacks, so that isn't an option with those machines, but they have built in serial, and the first 2 have built in drives so it's not such a big deal.
The IIGS has a built in disk controller, but you'll need a drive emulator for it, or use a serial drive.
If you get a cheap IIe without the 128K RAM upgrade, the RAM upgrade will set you back around $15 shipped from ebay. 
An 8GB board is $35 shipped if you have a reason to buy one.
If you want to use a drive emulator with the II, II+, IIe you'll need a disk controller.  Those are $20 & up on ebay.
As we mentioned, drive emulators were $50(I think) on the low end to $140 on the high end.  It was something like that.
I'm not a fan of using old CRT TVs or composite monitors.  You can find a 19" LCD at a yard sale for under $40, and a new 32" TV can be had under $100 at Walmart.
Just be sure the model TV you use works with old computers. 
I have a Magnavox that doesn't, and there are more out there that don't.  Know which ones to look for when you shop around.
All my newer TVs work, it seems most of the problems were earlier LCD TVs, but I can't guarantee that.
If you stick to 16:9 units, they will probably work *if* they have composite input.

CoCo 3 upgrades will run you as follows:
CoCoSDC is $70 with case
Boyson Tech 512K RAM upgrade $20.  The 2MB board kits are $50(?) but most people would want to pay for installation.
The Switch-a-roo RGB to SCART cable is $40, and the SCART to HDMI adapters start at $30.
Then hook it to a TV with HDMI inputs.  You'll also want composite input for the artifact colors from older games.
Those prices are plus shipping... so around $160 + shipping for the upgrades to have a stand alone 512K system you can hook to an HDMI TV.
It's definitely a higher price for the add ons, but not by a huge amount.

Ultimately, what kind of deal you get on the computer is going to be the biggest difference in price.
 

[+x=usr(1536)]

Everyone should get a CoCo3 and an Apple //e as their first retrocomputers, then mash them together while shouting "NOW KISS!" at them.

?

Edited October 2, 2020 by x=usr(1536)

[Bill Loguidice]

Definitely a surprising amount of passionate enthusiasm for the CoCo, but it still doesn't make it a great overall choice based on the OP's parameters. And I REALLY don't care for the cheap x-to-HDMI adapters. The only ones worth a damn are the relatively pricey XRGB-mini (not really available anymore anyway), RetroTink, and OSSC. Everything else typically gives a mediocre result.

[Arnuphis]

Well it's hard to get unbiased opinions when someone is passionate about whatever machine they have the strongest nostalgia for. I still think C64 is the best choice. Yes I am biased because I had one. But it ticks all the boxes. However I do see the Atari 8 bit as a good alternative and to a lesser extent the Apple II because they can be a little more expensive. You will never convince me to ever get another machine first ahead of one of those three if I could only have 1 retro machine. That's the advice I would give to someone asking. 

[Bill Loguidice]

10 hours ago, Arnuphis said:

Well it's hard to get unbiased opinions when someone is passionate about whatever machine they have the strongest nostalgia for. I still think C64 is the best choice. Yes I am biased because I had one. But it ticks all the boxes. However I do see the Atari 8 bit as a good alternative and to a lesser extent the Apple II because they can be a little more expensive. You will never convince me to ever get another machine first ahead of one of those three if I could only have 1 retro machine. That's the advice I would give to someone asking. 

It would be really hard to argue against the C-64 being number one based on the OPs requirements. That goes for North America and Europe for sure.

[+x=usr(1536)]

Atari 8-bit bigot that I am...  For a total newcomer, I'd probably also point them in the direction of the C64, at least initially.

 

Both the Atari and Commodore are very well-known, well-documented machines, and are extremely well-supported by the communities behind them.  However, being completely objective, the C64 wins out on two fronts: availability (more machines and peripherals manufactured means typically-lower prices) and having a broader global reach.  That's not to say that Atari didn't, but it never hit quite the level that Commodore did.

 

The Apple ][-series machines were highly-significant, but only really in North America.  Elsewhere they tended to be prohibitively expensive and lacking wide distribution.  Great computers, but most of the community for them in centred around North America.

 

From a European perspective, I'd go with the ZX Spectrum as a solid second choice, or the one to choose in a coin toss between it and the C64.  Similar to the Apple ][ range, I'd skip it in North America as it had virtually zero presence on this side of the world.

 

And, realistically, there's nothing that says anyone has to stick with their first machine forever.  Live in Nebraska and want a ZX Spectrum?  Go for it; eBay makes it a no-brainer.  Similarly, if you're in Liechtenstein and are looking for an Apple ///, you've got the same tools at your disposal.  But for starting out and just getting some experience with older hardware, start with something that people around you know and can help with locally if needed.  You can always move onto the more unusual stuff later.

[Hwlngmad]

Overall, the C64 is (probably) the easy and safe choice considering cost, availability, function, and the gaming library.  Second would most likely be the Atari 8-bit range.  But, if one were living in the UK, I would say the ZX Spectrum instead of the Atari 8-bit machines.  Still, really, it is a matter of what floats your boat and what are you willing to do.  Lots of a options out there and good choices at that.

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

And, realistically, there's nothing that says anyone has to stick with their first machine forever.  Live in Nebraska and want a ZX Spectrum?  Go for it; eBay makes it a no-brainer.  Similarly, if you're in Liechtenstein and are looking for an Apple ///, you've got the same tools at your disposal.  But for starting out and just getting some experience with older hardware, start with something that people around you know and can help with locally if needed.  You can always move onto the more unusual stuff later.

100% this. The really great thing today is that if you start with one retrocomputer (or gaming setup, and you end up getting into it of course), you most likely have the foundation in place to easily add other computers with minimal extra space thanks to today's cables and flash drives.

[Bill Loguidice]

So maybe it's safe to say, overall, based on the OPs requirements:

 

North America Tier 1:
 

1 - C-64
2 - Atari 8-bit
3 - Apple II

UK and other parts of Europe Tier 1:

 

1 - C-64
2 - ZX Spectrum
3 - Amstrad CPC

 

I also think one thing we shouldn't really overlook with the C-64 is that it's basically one model of computer you have to think about (outside of different cosmetic variations). With the Atari 8-bit, Apple II, ZX Spectrum, CPC, etc., there can be a minefield of models and memory configurations to sort through and figure out which one to get, and varying degrees of compatibility at times. That relative homogeny on the C-64 side was certainly one factor in its success back in the day. The C-64 you bought in 1982 could be the same C-64 that you can still use today with 98% of the software released.

[Hwlngmad]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

So maybe it's safe to say, overall, based on the OPs requirements:

 

North America Tier 1:
 

1 - C-64
2 - Atari 8-bit
3 - Apple II

UK and other parts of Europe Tier 1:

 

1 - C-64
2 - ZX Spectrum
3 - Amstrad CPC

 

I also think one thing we shouldn't really overlook with the C-64 is that it's basically one model of computer you have to think about (outside of different cosmetic variations). With the Atari 8-bit, Apple II, ZX Spectrum, CPC, etc., there can be a minefield of models and memory configurations to sort through and figure out which one to get, and varying degrees of compatibility at times. That relative homogeny on the C-64 side was certainly one factor in its success back in the day. The C-64 you bought in 1982 could be the same C-64 that you can still use today with 98% of the software released.

Pretty much agreed here, although the Amiga 500 could possibly go in the #3 slot for Europe Tier 1 imo.  Other than that, I think it is a pretty solid list and one that I can go with.  Also, yes, good point about the other machines outside of the C64 as there are a lot of model variations concerning memory, ports, etc.  Definitely a factor as there are some models that are really good and some that you maybe should not get, like with recommending an Atari 800XL but not necessarily an Atari 400 (for example).

[Bill Loguidice]

11 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

Pretty much agreed here, although the Amiga 500 could possibly go in the #3 slot for Europe Tier 1 imo.  Other than that, I think it is a pretty solid list and one that I can go with.  Also, yes, good point about the other machines outside of the C64 as there are a lot of model variations concerning memory, ports, etc.  Definitely a factor as there are some models that are really good and some that you maybe should not get, like with recommending an Atari 800XL but not necessarily an Atari 400 (for example).

Absolutely. Both the Atari ST and Amiga are good choices too, as are particular PC DOS setups. All three platforms have similar modern solutions to make their usage more enjoyable than ever. With that said, the relative costs and complexity can be higher than the 8-bit solutions, but definitely in terms of software breadth and depth they stack up really well. It's certainly not a bad idea to have two Tier 1 lists, one for 8-bits and one for 16-bits+. They certainly are different enough is many ways to warrant something like that.

 

[desiv]

My main concern about the Amiga 500 (And I am a HUGE Amiga fan here) for a first time user is cost and display.

You really want it to come with an RGB monitor (1084 series), which raises the cost.

Otherwise, the composite output it has is monochrome.  Great for word processing.   But...

And for a while, there were some good composite output options (I have an Amigamaniac composite/s-video adapter), but I am not sure they are that plentiful now, and you don't want the RF modulator that came with it for composite.  Quality is terrible..

Yeah, you can go GBS or some other RGB to something adapter, but there's added cost there.

So, with a 1084 (or a high end scan doubler) then it's an awesome choice, but getting spendy...

 

As for the ST, my first and only experience with them left me a bit cold.

I didn't really know much about the models, but always thought they looked interesting.

Someone gave me one, and I thought great!  I can play with this a bit.

Turns out it was a 520STf..  no m.  I didn't know what that meant at the time, but discovered there was no easy way to output video from this for me..

And that video plug was so unique that making a cable to connect to something didn't look that simple...

In the end, I traded it to someone who had STs...  (This happened before the GBS series came out, otherwise I might have played with that..  )

 

Not that there is anything wrong with them.  Just that for a newbie, both systems have gotchas to be aware of...  And are more expensive...

[potatohead]

19 hours ago, JamesD said:

If you can get a good 128K IIe platinum for $150, that's a pretty good deal, but it looks like the remaining units from that link have yellowing bad enough to call it severe, or even refer to it as orange.
I notice they sell IIc machines for $120, so that could be a cheap option.

 

Yeah, they vary widely.  Depends on what comes in.  But, yellowed doesn't mean works poorly.  When I got my Platinum from them a decade ago, it was $40, fully equipped, serial card, etc... When it arrived, I had a power supply problem.  They shipped me a new one, no worries.  I've bought various gear from them ever since.

 

[Bill Loguidice]

42 minutes ago, desiv said:

My main concern about the Amiga 500 (And I am a HUGE Amiga fan here) for a first time user is cost and display.

You really want it to come with an RGB monitor (1084 series), which raises the cost.

Otherwise, the composite output it has is monochrome.  Great for word processing.   But...

And for a while, there were some good composite output options (I have an Amigamaniac composite/s-video adapter), but I am not sure they are that plentiful now, and you don't want the RF modulator that came with it for composite.  Quality is terrible..

Yeah, you can go GBS or some other RGB to something adapter, but there's added cost there.

So, with a 1084 (or a high end scan doubler) then it's an awesome choice, but getting spendy...

 

As for the ST, my first and only experience with them left me a bit cold.

I didn't really know much about the models, but always thought they looked interesting.

Someone gave me one, and I thought great!  I can play with this a bit.

Turns out it was a 520STf..  no m.  I didn't know what that meant at the time, but discovered there was no easy way to output video from this for me..

And that video plug was so unique that making a cable to connect to something didn't look that simple...

In the end, I traded it to someone who had STs...  (This happened before the GBS series came out, otherwise I might have played with that..  )

 

Not that there is anything wrong with them.  Just that for a newbie, both systems have gotchas to be aware of...  And are more expensive...

Yeah, both the Amiga and ST series can present video output challenges, although there are good solutions today for both for most the part that mitigate those issues. It's the same thing with the Apple IIGS for that matter, as to use its IIGS-specific mode you really want to have its paired RGB monitor. There are really nice alternative solutions for the IIGS as well, of course, but its original monitor still gives the best display.

I got rid of most of my CRTs when I purged a large portion of my collection, but one versatile monitor I was sure to keep, and that's the aforementioned Commodore 1084S. It's invaluable for use with all kinds of RGB, CGA, composite, and S-VIDEO sources, and is even easy to switch back and forth for those systems like the CoCo 3, C-128, Tandy 1000, PCjr, etc., that output multiple signal types, with some software benefitting from one mode or the other (often due to artifacting). 

There's also the wrinkle that we touched on before with many of these systems in that for some users and use cases, they're better off with an FPGA-based solution. They can be high cost, but they're much better suited to working with modern displays and peripherals and what-not. Certainly that works well in the Amiga and ST's case. And even though I have a C-128DCR, an NTSC C-64C, and a PAL C-64C, I still couldn't pass up an Ultimate 64 inside a Commodore 64 breadbin when a good deal presented itself.

[potatohead]

4 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I got rid of most of my CRTs when I purged a large portion of my collection, but one versatile monitor I was sure to keep, and that's the aforementioned Commodore 1084S. It's invaluable for use with all kinds of RGB, CGA, composite, and S-VIDEO sources, and is even easy to switch back and forth for those systems like the CoCo 3, C-128, Tandy 1000, PCjr, etc., that output multiple signal types, with some software benefitting from one mode or the other (often due to artifacting). 

I have a PVM in that same role.  Works at 15Khz RGB, S-video, composite.  Have not hooked the GS up to it yet, but I expect a great display.  Need to do my CoCo3 too.  Have never run one over RGB.  

 

The big difference I can see between the 1084S and some PVMs is the PVMs do some processing, and are not just a well executed CRT.  Some smaller ones do a lot, and a retro display will look distinctly different.  Others, such as the one I have, do show some artifacts on an Apple 8 bit display, but are otherwise exemplary.  That's over composite.  The S-video input channel may be different.

 

Side note:  Splitting a composite signal, using a resistor on the chroma input, will often work when used on an S-video input.  The difference can be dramatic.  Just saying.

[potatohead]

5 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

they're better off with an FPGA-based solution.

These are getting fun.  I may get one at some point.  For now, I enjoy vintage hardware in all aspects.  Repair, programming, gaming, etc...  People not into it for the broader experiences are increasingly likely to have a great time with an FPGA.

 

 

[desiv]

6 minutes ago, potatohead said:

These are getting fun.  I may get one at some point.  For now, I enjoy vintage hardware in all aspects.  Repair, programming, gaming, etc...  People not into it for the broader experiences are increasingly likely to have a great time with an FPGA.

 

 

Something I did recently (which isn't quite the same and not something everyone will want to do) was with a Pi.

I had a free C64 case with keyboard.

I knew I could throw it together with Retropie and a Keyrah, but that didn't interest me too much for some reason.

Then I found out about BMC64.

Wired  up the keyboard to the PIs GPIO pins.

Fired it up, and in 4 seconds I have a C64 flashing cursor.

I think this is the nerdy tech version of something like TheC64.    

For me, for some reason real C64s weren't holding my interest that well.  

Which is weird because I was a C64 (and SX64) person growing up.

Now, I was having a LOT of retro fun with my Vic-20s (and I still am), which isn't surprising as it was my first computer.

And I have a lot of fun with my Amigas, which makes sense as I am a die hard Amiga fan.

And I even have a lot of fun with my Apple IIs (//e and //c), which is a bit surprising as I never owned them back in the day.  But my friends Apple II Plus was the first computer I ever played computer games on...  

I also love my Tandy Model 100.

 

But for some reason, the C64 (the real hardware) just wasn't holding my attention.

I think I like BMC64 on the Pi for the project/work more than the retro of it....

 

I think sometimes you won't know what will hold your interest until you use that system again.

 

[potatohead]

That is pretty cool.  I would do one.

 

People are putting Ras Pi computers in their Apples.  I may do that.

 

Sometimes interests change.  I got way into Atari and hit a plateau.  The FujiNET project may suck me back in.  But yeah, just kind of peaked.  So I kept my 800XL and 400 and went back to the Apple.

 

Same with CoCo right now.  Just kind of peaked on it.

 

While jamming on those, I ignored Apple.

 

Then I got an itch, and got one and was in!

 

I feel it ebbs and flows.  Getting a new system definitely helps all that along.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by potatohead

[English Invader]

18 hours ago, desiv said:

My main concern about the Amiga 500 (And I am a HUGE Amiga fan here) for a first time user is cost and display...

Not that there is anything wrong with them.  Just that for a newbie, both systems have gotchas to be aware of...  And are more expensive...

 

I think starting off with a 16-Bit system is a bad idea for a number of reasons:

 

1) The emphasis shifted from encouraging people to learn how to program to selling expensive multimedia applications that relied on huge production teams.  This turned the computer user into a consumer and that doesn't seem like a good way to learn how to be in control of a system.

2) The Amiga has an appalling lack of standardisation for memory upgrades.  The expensive accelerators are catered for while the standard memory expansions are left behind.  An Atari STe is much better in this regard because it uses PC SIMM modules and a 4MB configuration will comfortably run a hard drive and the most resource hungry games in the ST library.  The Amiga upgrades market is the Wild West of the retro community - fine if you're Clint Eastwood but not the place for a beginner.

3 The beginner will get more out of a 16-Bit system if he or she serves an apprenticeship on an 8-Bit system first.  The user control ethos will be fostered from the outset and, if all goes well, the user will develop the hunger to learn how to program a 16-Bit system instead of being consumed by the proprietary applications.