What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?

[Bill Loguidice]

11 minutes ago, potatohead said:

Still Apple 8 bit for me.  Meets all criteria well.

 

And I will just continue talking to people as they get into retro as I always have.

That was kind of the earlier point, right? We more or less settled on C-64, Atari 8-bit, and Apple II for the computers that best fit the 8 categories for those in North America. While it's natural to give one or another the edge, if you're at that level, there's no wrong answer. Any of the three work.

[potatohead]

The other discussion was a lot more interesting, frankly.   And it's all good.  I could give two shits about the meta.  It's all laughs from my point of view.

 

And it led to, "the power of the hairpin" LOL.  (reference to the video linked here)

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by potatohead

[+x=usr(1536)]

22 minutes ago, Arnuphis said:

The Aquarius came out in 1983. And it was in no way any kind of success.

 

Speaking as an ex-owner of an Aquarius while it was first available on the market, I feel that the phrase "loser computer" is an apt description of that machine.  About the best thing I can say for it is that it eventually caused my parents to replace it with an Atari 800, and I never had to use the Aquarius again after that.

 

But, even disliking it as much as I do, I'd never tell someone not to experience it if they were interested.  I'd just help them to set their expectations accordingly before diving in.

[Mr SQL]

4 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I of course had an Interact Home Computer and good amount of software and accessories for it in my collection (there was a reason I got rid of most of my collection - just way too much stuff), and again, it's not something I'd recommend to anyone except the most hardcore enthusiast. Depending upon what model you get, the keyboard can be decent to awful, and it has several quirks including a particularly low native resolution. As with all computers of that type - extreme outliers - you're unlikely to want to use it for much more than exploring its oddities and differences from other platforms. Of course, the biggest issue is finding them anymore, let alone finding them in working condition. This is one of those cases where going to emulation would almost certainly be better than the real thing for most people who are not already hardcore into the vintage computing hobby.

 

2 hours ago, potatohead said:

The one person I know who got started on one of these is an embedded software / hardware engineer today.  Earlier, I wrote about modest capability sometimes being a good thing.  Batari Basic is an example of how that all works.

 

When there isn't much, in a way the path forward to some goal is more clear.  People took the little bit the VCS offered and did something.

 

Machines like that Interact are kind of the same way.  They self-select for the people who get it and are looking to learn.  Others will move on pretty quick.  The one nice thing about that machine is the display is a simple bitmap.  So it doesn't do much, and text density is terrible, but it does do graphics too.  The minimum is there!  LOL, bare minimum, IMHO.

 

^This is why, and I think the big letters are a big plus. I find the 32 column display of the CoCo and MC-10 and the 22 column display of the VIC very welcoming and refreshing to code on - everything really jumps out at you when the text is big. 

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Not much has changed, really. There were plenty of options back then in programming languages and plenty of options in construction sets and similar tools that helped simplify a lot of the grunt work in designing software or games, and there's even more of that today, i.e., code-level stuff and click and place type of stuff. While we can pine for the days of BASIC on just about every computer - and certainly the lot of us here have that nostalgia - just like with gaming, I'd argue today is the best time to be a developer, whatever form that may take.

Probably every programmer writing pro software in the 80's would agree it was a more fun then, but what about the user experience? Today people are trained to constantly squint at tiny phone displays with too many pixels to see clearly.  That always looks painful to me and I refuse to do it, I wish I still had my analog Startek from 1997. 

 

The Interact you don't care for looks more and more keen, particularly the model with all four languages of the era I mentioned earlier all built in -  BASIC, Assembly, Logo and Forth in ROM.  How retro computer cool!

 

[Bill Loguidice]

You should get laser eye surgery, Mr SQL, I highly recommend it.  When I had mine done last year I got monovision (distance in left and close-up in right). It makes my 48 year old eyes better than ever.

[JamesD]

It looks like Microcenter is selling an Atari Pi kit that includes 100+ licensed Atari games on an SD card for $75.
It includes the Pi, woodgrain case, power, HDMI cable, and a controller.
Someone could have a Retro Pi setup for under $100 with keyboard if they don't mind what it takes to set it up.
There are SD card images for Atari 8 bit, Apple II, C64, CoCo, etc... to use it as any of those machines.
"THE C64" has the advantage of the look & keyboard like a C64, but if someone wants to explore without getting a bunch of machines it might be a good option.
 

[Arnuphis]

Also the MiSTer is a great option for someone looking for a retro experience with limited space. It's more expensive than the Pi option but its true FPGA machine experience and supports many platforms. Gonna check out that Atari kit though. Woodgrain case...

[potatohead]

3 hours ago, Mr SQL said:

^This is why, and I think the big letters are a big plus. I find the 32 column display of the CoCo and MC-10 and the 22 column display of the VIC very welcoming and refreshing to code on - everything really jumps out at you when the text is big. 

Interesting observation!  It does jump out at you like that.  Never thought about it before.  Wonder if people using VIC's have a similar response.  I like coding on the Tandy CoCo's.  Always felt kind of techy and serious...  

 

Plus, 6809?  Bring it.  Love that chip, and James has made me realize I would like the 6803 too.

[potatohead]

3 hours ago, Mr SQL said:

Today people are trained to constantly squint at tiny phone displays with too many pixels

I like to see the pixels.  Old eyes, young eyes, doesn't matter.  Because pixels.

[potatohead]

13 minutes ago, Arnuphis said:

Woodgrain case...

Someone should make a VCS look alike, with the funky keyboard add on.  Stuff a Pi in there.  Would be an eye catcher.

[Keatah]

Maybe all this should be as simple as going with what was popular at the time. The exact same hardware now as was back in the day. Start there and upgrade. I mean that's the genuine way. We didn't have none-a this fancy flash storage devices and stuff back in the day.

[potatohead]

Except disks and drives are getting hard.  Will be much harder in the near future.  

 

There is always cassette, which works pretty great with the many media sources we've got today.  For gaming, EU style, that makes a ton of sense.  But, to explore the later era stuff one needs a disk drive, or reasonable emulation.

 

"Start there and upgrade" is why I've enjoyed my Apple over the last decade or so.  Just chipping away at this and that.  Today, it's a great machine.  It started out simple, though I did start out with a disk drive.

[Omega-TI]

Honestly, I would recommend a Raspberry Pi 3 or 4, that way you can try out all the free emulators and see which platform you like before you get financially locked into one retro system.  Afterwards you can re-task the RPi for something else like KODI.

[Keatah]

I started out with cassette, RF modulator, TV, and Apple II console. A good portion of the early computing experience was learning how to do an upgrade and get it working - and then finding software that made use of it.

 

One could learn a lot by discovering how an upgrade integrated itself into a system and how the software and existing hardware and host interacted with it.

[JamesD]

5 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

That was kind of the earlier point, right? We more or less settled on C-64, Atari 8-bit, and Apple II for the computers that best fit the 8 categories for those in North America. While it's natural to give one or another the edge, if you're at that level, there's no wrong answer. Any of the three work.

Why is anyone's opinion a wrong answer?
Why is your opinion the right answer?

As far as your top three go, if that's the only choice, AND someone is interested in BASIC, I'd reverse the order.
Apple II, Atari 8 bit, C64.
 

[JamesD]

1 hour ago, potatohead said:

Interesting observation!  It does jump out at you like that.  Never thought about it before.  Wonder if people using VIC's have a similar response.  I like coding on the Tandy CoCo's.  Always felt kind of techy and serious...  

 

Plus, 6809?  Bring it.  Love that chip, and James has made me realize I would like the 6803 too.

Nothing jumps out at you quite like zombie apocalypse green!

[Mr SQL]

58 minutes ago, potatohead said:

I like to see the pixels.  Old eyes, young eyes, doesn't matter.  Because pixels.

X2  

5 minutes ago, Keatah said:

I started out with cassette, RF modulator, TV, and Apple II console. A good portion of the early computing experience was learning how to do an upgrade and get it working - and then finding software that made use of it.

 

One could learn a lot by discovering how an upgrade integrated itself into a system and how the software and existing hardware and host interacted with it.

Great point - that journey is half the fun and can be lost if the machine starts maxed out.  

[JamesD]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Maybe all this should be as simple as going with what was popular at the time. The exact same hardware now as was back in the day. Start there and upgrade. I mean that's the genuine way. We didn't have none-a this fancy flash storage devices and stuff back in the day.

If exact same hardware as back in the day is important.
Let someone start with a C64 & cassette, then upgrade to disk, and then get a Fast Loader cart.
You haven't lived until you can start loading, can go fix coffee, and get back in time to see it finish. 
If you want them to have the original experience, that's it.

[Bill Loguidice]

23 minutes ago, JamesD said:

Why is anyone's opinion a wrong answer?
Why is your opinion the right answer?
 

Where are you coming up with these conclusions? Stop fishing.

[JamesD]

24 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Where are you coming up with these conclusions? Stop fishing.

"We more or less settled"
 

[Bill Loguidice]

18 minutes ago, JamesD said:

"We more or less settled"
 

And? For the 8 points we more or less settled on what the most logical choices were. Then somebody (can't recall who), went on a posting spree about BASIC and obscure computers.

[+x=usr(1536)]

6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

And? For the 8 points we more or less settled on what the most logical choices were. Then somebody (can't recall who), went proselytising about BASIC and obscure computers.

FIFY.

[potatohead]

16 hours ago, Omega-TI said:

Raspberry Pi 3 or 4, that way you can try out all the free emulators and

Also offers composite so one can run the emulation on a TV or CRT TV and get a great experience.  I second that recommendation.

[potatohead]

15 hours ago, JamesD said:

Nothing jumps out at you quite like zombie apocalypse green!

Of all the machines, the CoCo is best on a medium performance CRT.  PVMs are too good for the end of the world zombie green!

[potatohead]

16 hours ago, Mr SQL said:

Great point - that journey is half the fun and can be lost if the machine starts maxed out. 

I just got a FastChip from a2heaven in Bulgaria.  They included a nice post card and put a 65816 on it for me so I could have that CPU in my //e.  Check one youthful upgrade off the list.  I think it tops out at 14, 16Mhz?  Will have to check.

 

Part of the fun is doing the upgrade and checking it out with those fave apps and games.  (Appleworks at higher speeds is perfectly respectable by modern standards BTW)  The other part is supporting the people making new toys!  I have had a nice chat about stuff with these people a lot of the time I get something. 

 

Too cool.  They still feel something and are happy to share more often than not.

 

Next up for me is an Apple mouse card for the //e and a FujiNet for my 800XL.  Maybe I can have a //e or GS serve stuff up to the XL.  Which means I need either a serial or ethernet for one of the Apples.... and it continues.

 

And that is the last part of the fun.  Just doing stuff retro style.  The PLATO like system Thomas has been working on might be real fun.  Soon Atarians will be playing together online.  Spiffy!  I am sure there is a lot out there.

 

On the C64 part in all this, are there solid disk drive simulations/emulations one can buy that plug in and really perform like a disk drive does, running code on the drive, etc...  I have not kept up with C64 because I do not have hardware.

 

Gaming is fun.  Easy, mostly depending on the game.  But computing is too.  And it's all small scale.  

 

This all is a part of Retro I don't want to see die anytime soon.  And it is important to show n tell so others who might get the itch jump in.  

 

Re:  Settled

 

Depends on the conversation, doesn't it?  If someone wants to write a "best beginner" piece, games are well trodden ground.  Literally all the other retro coolness potential gets left off the table, and frankly that part of the scene is where the new stuff, games included, comes from.

 

New hardware, controls, upgrades, repair, all matter a lot. 

 

One day, it will be almost all FPGA and emulation.  I feel putting that off as long as possible is good for everyone.

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by potatohead