What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?

[Bill Loguidice]

On 11/20/2020 at 10:05 PM, fimbulvetr said:

You keep saying that. See my comment above, this is completely untrue, no matter what else you may think of the IIc.

 

Here are the steps: Open case. Unplug built in drive. Plug in flash drive. Close case. It is not difficult.

 

Alternatively: Open case. Plug in an internal/external drive switcher. Close case. Plug in flash drive. (I have one of these in my IIc now, it works great)

 

How is that any harder than any other Apple II, which would involve opening the case, installing a drive card, plugging in drive wires, closing the case? Except for a couple screws?

 

Anyone afraid of opening the case of a 30 or 40-year old computer should stick to emulation, because it is a necessary skill to keep these old machines running. 

 

Or, just get a IIe series and save yourself the hassle of having to open up something - no matter how relatively easy - not meant to be regularly opened up and closed again and again. To each their own, though.

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Disassembling+Apple+IIc+Cover/6772

https://www.bigmessowires.com/switcher/#:~:text=The Internal%2FExternal Drive Switcher,internal 5.25 inch floppy drive.

 

[Keatah]

When I was a kid there were many-a-times I just wanted to pop the top and admire the insides. The art of construction and all its ensuing futurism. Sorry to say I wrecked too many classic electronic items. The Apple II put a stop to that. And it was great teaching tool back then too. Easy to explain what was going on.

[JamesD]

On 11/20/2020 at 10:44 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

I honestly never understood the monochrome preference when using an Apple II either, but it's definitely out there with some. Color is always better to me, even if the colors are usually not that great like in the case of the Apple II. People definitely use that as a reason, though. That, and the aforementioned nostalgia. I know when I was first exposed to Apple II's, it was with green monochrome monitors. With the Apple II portion of my collection these days, I'm strictly color.

 

A pseudo-exception for me is I tend to prefer the monochrome displays of the classic Macs over the color ones, because that feels more like early Mac to me, and kind of reaching as an exception, much prefer the black and white monitors on the TRS-80 Model III's/4's versus the green or amber. 

Color monitors were expensive back in the day so people bought mono, especially schools which were a lot of people's first exposure to computers.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 minutes ago, JamesD said:

Color monitors were expensive back in the day so people bought mono, especially schools which were a lot of people's first exposure to computers.

In addition to this, there was a perception that colour displays were meant for gaming-oriented machines.  This seemed to spring from relating the game console hooked up to the TV with whatever computer was going to be used for Serious Business.

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, JamesD said:

Color monitors were expensive back in the day so people bought mono, especially schools which were a lot of people's first exposure to computers.

 

Absolutely. Our respective comments were about some people still preferring them today. There are few restrictions - other than self-imposed ones - like that today. Color is readily available if you want it.

[JamesD]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Absolutely. Our respective comments were about some people still preferring them today. There are few restrictions - other than self-imposed ones - like that today. Color is readily available if you want it.

To clarify what I meant... it was some people's first exposure to computers, so they go mono out of nostalgia.

 

[fimbulvetr]

Chacun à son goût. I quite like the monochrome green monitor with my IIc.

[potatohead]

On 11/20/2020 at 2:55 AM, AtariNostalgia said:

My IIc is working perfectly and hasn't needed any maintenance, even the PSU is working great. It is easy to connect an external SD drive that can emulate hardware, so you're not 'really' stuck in. Adding to all that, it has built in many of the IIe's expansion boards.

Until it doesn't.  Let's hope it doesn't.    Some of my stuff is starting to need recapping.  So...  Getting stocked up this year.  Gonna do the Apple, PVM, Atari, and some misc items, including this which I just got:

 

 

I had one of these long ago.  Saw one that needs a recap on ebay for a song and bought one!   Amazingly, the overall resolution is respectable.  CRT's scale down pretty well.  This thing will display 300 pixels / line or better pretty easy.  I love CRT's and this one is just tiny!

 

In any case, @Keatah isn't wrong.  A ton of this stuff is going to need a little electronics love over the coming decade.  Using it all, from time to time, helps, IMHO.

[potatohead]

On 11/20/2020 at 3:00 AM, Keatah said:

I'm personally a fan of the high-reliability Platinum //e.

Definitely my fave too.  I just got a FastChip for mine, and it's a whole lot of fun now!  Next project on that is to setup a fast Applesoft boot disk so BASIC runs at 14 or 16Mhz!  Always wanted to do that.

 

 

[potatohead]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:50 PM, JamesD said:

I honestly never understood the monochrome preference when using an Apple II either

Well, the best way to go is just get two displays!  That's what some people did back in the day.  Back then, a lot of people went with mono because it was readable, and good for any serious tasks, 80 columns, etc...

 

The green screens were and are the least desirable.  I personally liked white, "as in CRT white" displays, or amber much better.  So, that's what I have today.  Great little 9" Amber screen, and those are crazy good, will do 800 pixels / line, and whatever color display makes sense.  Right now, that's a PVM.  But, for a long time, it was a great little TV that I recapped and then tuned up.

 

I did two displays because the pixel art is different for both displays!  

 

(more in a minute)

 

[Bill Loguidice]

51 minutes ago, potatohead said:

Well, the best way to go is just get two displays!  That's what some people did back in the day.  Back then, a lot of people went with mono because it was readable, and good for any serious tasks, 80 columns, etc...

 

The green screens were and are the least desirable.  I personally liked white, "as in CRT white" displays, or amber much better.  So, that's what I have today.  Great little 9" Amber screen, and those are crazy good, will do 800 pixels / line, and whatever color display makes sense.  Right now, that's a PVM.  But, for a long time, it was a great little TV that I recapped and then tuned up.

 

I did two displays because the pixel art is different for both displays!  

 

(more in a minute)

 

I have my primary Apple IIe Platinum on an Apple color display. It has a button on the front to go to monochrome mode, which definitely sharpens things up. I rarely use it, though.

In terms of dual displays, I make a lot of use of my workhorse Commodore 10804S. I often have systems like the C-128, CoCo 3, IBM PCjr, Tandy 1000, etc., hooked up with multiple methods so I can switch between RGB and composite/SVIDEO, something that's pretty much a necessity on some of those.

[potatohead]

The monochrome mode switch is good, but the color tubes, even super fine masked ones like computer CRT's and PVM's, do not compare to an actual monochrome screen.

 

That said, the art can be appreciated that way, and it is convenient!

 

(Missed my edit window on phone, so end of other post goes here)

 

For me personally, writing code, editing bitmaps and other detail tasks is great in monochrome, assuming color isn't needed.  People may vary on color preferences, but overall ease on the eyes is generally a good thing, particularly for longer sessions.

 

Also, trails!  For some gaming, the long persistence phosphors found on most monochrome displays is just cool!  Darkened room + higher contrast setting = awesome sauce.

 

Color displays can approach that.  My PVM has a fairly short phosphor, but I have a little TV that is pretty long.  Coarse shadow mask though.

 

 

[potatohead]

43 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Commodore 10804S

I like that one.

 

Any chance you can get a close up photo of something in color, saturation low and one with saturation high?

 

I am wanting to compare it to my Sony PVM.   Just wondering about the CRT.  Haven't managed to score a display for myself to get an up close look.

 

 

[AtariNostalgia]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

In terms of dual displays, I make a lot of use of my workhorse Commodore 10804S.

Is that a US only model? I know in Europe there is a 1084, but not a 10804S ? There is also a Philips model based on the 1084 or the other way around.

Edited November 24, 2020 by AtariNostalgia

[Bill Loguidice]

8 minutes ago, AtariNostalgia said:

Is that a US only model? I know in Europe there is a 1084, but not a 10804S ? There is also a Philips model based on the 1084 or the other way around.

Yes, I'm in the US. It's my original monitor from the Amiga. 1084S. I used to have some of the D models, but only kept this one.

[AtariNostalgia]

Looking back now, I wish I had kept all my stuff from the 80's... What can one do. I still have a BBC micro model B though, so that's something.

[potatohead]

We do what we can!  It's still fun.  We can still score good toys.  

 

I like to value what I got and do stuff with it.  Sometimes I get new stuff!  Sometimes I lose / sell stuff, or it dies.

 

I don't know that I care as long as I can continue.

 

 

[Keatah]

On 11/24/2020 at 2:27 PM, AtariNostalgia said:

Looking back now, I wish I had kept all my stuff from the 80's... What can one do.

 

Buy back some vintage material to get a solid experience or enhance the stuff you already have. But don't go overboard. Fill in the gaps with modern equivalents and emulators.

 

I know. I know. Emulators are a like a 4-letter word to many. But they're better than spending tens of thousands of dollars on space-filling filler material that you may only use once in a blue moon. Better to have 2 barcades and a livable basement instead of 20 arcade cabs and 0 space to entertain.

[Keatah]

Another pertinent question might be how is one introduced to the hobby. We're all evangelists at heart and like to discuss and share vintage computing experiences. But there's likely right ways and wrong ways of doing it.

 

Found that unscripted demonstration works best. Not had good luck with anything planned. Not even something as innocuous as date nite or likewise.

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 11/29/2020 at 12:20 PM, Keatah said:

Better to have 2 barcades and a livable basement instead of 20 arcade cabs and 0 space to entertain.

 

Speaking as someone who did exactly this: quoted for truth.

[doctor_x]

C64 or Atari 8 bit.

 

No other choice is valid with software library and cost kept in mind. 

[Hwlngmad]

16 hours ago, doctor_x said:

C64 or Atari 8 bit.

 

No other choice is valid with software library and cost kept in mind. 

C64 or A8 are good choices.  Although, I would include the Apple II as well.  Sure, it can be a bit more pricey than the C64 and/or A8s, but you can still find some deals on them here and there.

[DistantStar001]

8 hours ago, Hwlngmad said:

C64 or A8 are good choices.  Although, I would include the Apple II as well.  Sure, it can be a bit more pricey than the C64 and/or A8s, but you can still find some deals on them here and there.

I'm going to second this.  I have both C64s and an Atari 800xl along with my Apple II's, and while I agree that both are great machines, they're not without their draw backs.  I've been trying to get an 800 or 400 for quite a while now, and the prices I've seen have been in the same range as their Apple counterparts.  

 

An Atari 800 can easily go for between $100 and $200 dollars, and the 400 and XLs I've seen are going for about the same.  The going price for Commodore 64's is also climbing.  And that doesn't even account for the cost of additional equipment, like floppy drives, cassette decks, joysticks, SD card readers, and software.  An Apple //e, for example, might cost you $150 or more, but it's built in cassette ports mean that you can start using it immediately with only a power cable, composite monitor, and an aux-cable to load software from a phone or tablet.  

 

And as for software.  Taken as a whole line, the Apple II series had a production life that out paced the C64, and certainly has a comparable library of games and software that is in many ways far easier to access on line than either Commodore's or Atari's.  Honestly, I'v had my Atari for years now, and I'm still trying to get a SIO2SD, let alone a reliable floppy drive for a reasonable price.  My Commodores have been far easier, but nothing has rivaled the convenience of ADTPro or the Apple II Disk/Game Server.

 

Finally, as many have mentioned before, the VIC-20 is an excellent first retro computer.  While, like the C64, the prices have been climbing, the VIC-20 is still cheeper (and from my experience, more reliable).  And while yes, it may have a smaller software library than either the C64, Atari, or Apple II, it's vintage catalog is by no means small.  And there is a dedicated modern fanbase that has been developing new games and hardware that push many of the boundaries of the VIC's hardware.  All and all, I'd say that the VIC-20 is a very approachable computer that makes a perfectly reasonable compromise between capabilities and cost without compromising enjoyment at all!  

 

[Bill Loguidice]

All I can say about the above post is that for most people if they're thinking about going for a Vic-20 as their first retro computer, they may as well go straight to a C-64. I don't personally consider the Vic-20 adequate as a primary retro computer because it lacks in both power and advanced software. There are far fewer things you have to upgrade or expand on a C-64 to get an optimal experience, and even when you configure an optimal Vic-20 experience, it's still lacking in comparison to the other options discussed in the thread.

[Mr SQL]

Lots of interesting perspective, cool this thread is still going like the Energizer Bunny!  

 

I think that reading BYTE Magazine and seeing the colorful history of home computing from it's inception in the 70's through the 80's might help prospective retro users select the right dream machine.

 

There's lots of foresight in BYTE articles that are still misunderstood, this looks like the Apple Watch from the perspective of 1981 leading Tech:

Computer Magazines were important for home computer support and were an integral part of the retro computing experience evolving from the early computer clubs and their Newsletters.