Specs Question: Was the Jaguar ACTUALLY stronger than the 3DO?

[CatPix]

It's a different can of worms than the original topic, but you have to remember the mood BITD. I was reading magazines from 96/97 and tests written back in the day were deriding or regretting that games like Rayman were "in old-fashioned 2D instead of the fantastic 3D the Playstation is able to offer". And the game get a 13/20 on graphics, and the explanation was "visuals are fantastic but not 3D".

3D was a required step. Sega had to go 3D or die. Their failure was more due to managerial issues (AKA : stupid decisions) than the hardware or even the software. Sure, it would have helped to have a more simple console to program for, sure it would have helped to have a cheaper console, but those were only two small hurdles in front of... crass incompetence, I think we can call it that way.

Edited September 20, 2020 by CatPix

[turboxray]

On 9/16/2020 at 10:05 AM, Leeroy ST said:

There are three stages in this video and none have complex parallax the closest is the last one with chains in the foreground moving but not an entire plane. One could confuse stage 2 chinese bridge and parallax but that's just a sprite object that moves with the background it's not an actual plane being moved. Limited parallax at best.

 

Reminder, this is an example of complex parallax which the 3DO generally has problems doing:

 

 

 

One of the best examples of parallax is the 1st boss of Gex that isn't anywhere else in the game and the only other part in the game that has limited parallax is the last boss.

There are NO backgrounds or sprites on the 3DO. That statement shows your ignorance of the 3DO's hardware. Everything is blitted to a frame buffer. It builds objects and planes just like the PS. And like the Saturn, it uses quads. Apparently you also don't understand what parallax is. Wow.

Edited September 20, 2020 by turboxray

[Black_Tiger]

3 hours ago, CatPix said:

It's a different can of worms than the original topic, but you have to remember the mood BITD. I was reading magazines from 96/97 and tests written back in the day were deriding or regretting that games like Rayman were "in old-fashioned 2D instead of the fantastic 3D the Playstation is able to offer". And the game get a 13/20 on graphics, and the explanation was "visuals are fantastic but not 3D".

3D was a required step. Sega had to go 3D or die. Their failure was more due to managerial issues (AKA : stupid decisions) than the hardware or even the software. Sure, it would have helped to have a more simple console to program for, sure it would have helped to have a cheaper console, but those were only two small hurdles in front of... crass incompetence, I think we can call it that way.

Also the pre-rendered cgi craze was still going strong even after the Jaguar and 3DO stopped receiving support. People loved fugly cgi models over quality hand drawn artwork.

 

Although the 3DO was still bottlenecked by the CD format, it benefited from being able to deliver mass amounts of assets per game. There are lots of 2D and 3D 3DO games with gratuitous cgi assets.

 

Also revisionists pretend tgat the Sega-CD delivered nothing but "the short lived fad" of fmv. But fmv was one of the Playstations big strengths and cgi fmv was the selling point of many killer apps like FFVII.

 

Aside from the fact that by the time the Jaguar CD arrived you could buy a 3DO for less (that's when I did), the 3DO video format (can't find it online right now) was a huge strength.

[Leeroy ST]

1 hour ago, CatPix said:

It's a different can of worms than the original topic, but you have to remember the mood BITD. I was reading magazines from 96/97 and tests written back in the day were deriding or regretting that games like Rayman were "in old-fashioned 2D instead of the fantastic 3D the Playstation is able to offer". And the game get a 13/20 on graphics, and the explanation was "visuals are fantastic but not 3D".

3D was a required step. Sega had to go 3D or die. Their failure was more due to managerial issues (AKA : stupid decisions) than the hardware or even the software. Sure, it would have helped to have a more simple console to program for, sure it would have helped to have a cheaper console, but those were only two small hurdles in front of... crass incompetence, I think we can call it that way.

Off topic but I disagree with this. You Rayman generally had positive reviews and you're only using one example of dissent because it was "2D" but that wouldn't really become a major issue until 1996.

 

Sega had freaked out toward the Jaguar/PSX and adjusted its console before it's 1994 launch. The reason is because they weren't expecting that leap to happen, and while internal factors may have contributed to the Saturns poor loss so did the game selection they went with which didn't address many of the different audiences who loves specific types of games on the Genesis. Much of that was not only due to changes in Segas first party, but third parties becoming more disinterested in a faltering brand. Sega was already acting like Atari before the Saturn came out with retailers Saturn was just the straw that broke the camels back, and Sega had already forfeited their lead against the SNES in the US.

 

One thing that gets controversy is the argument over Sega of America's reasoning for not bringing Jrpgs over and they were 100% correct they wouldn't have done a damn thing. The only Jrpgs that were major sellers outside of Japan were Final Fantasy games which coincided with the 90's anime boom with weebs (as much as people don't want to admit) and large marketing budgets that deceived people about the games graphics outside the battle rooms. Saturn having Jrpgs would have done absolutely squat outside of Japan and SOA was 100% right and anyone saying "look at the PSX they should have brought them over" is clearly not thinking straight. 

 

Also there's the other misinformation in this thread that the additional hardware added tot he Saturn was for 3D, but it wasn't really the case at best it helped with calaculations and textures, it actually did more to help 2D and that was one of the other reasons Sega added it. From what information I can find about the Saturn earlier state the Jaguar was pretty much even with what the Saturn was and didn't have the advantages it would have over the PSX yet.

 

[Leeroy ST]

38 minutes ago, turboxray said:

There are NO backgrounds or sprites on the 3DO. That statement shows your ignorance of the 3DO's hardware. Everything is blitted to a frame buffer. It builds objects and planes just like the PS. And like the Saturn, it uses quads. Apparently you also don't understand what parallax is. Wow.

Or maybe I am talking about the visual image of the background in the video to make a point and you're a lying deceiver trying to play semantics? 

 

Quote

One could confuse stage 2 chinese bridge as parallax but that's just a sprite object that moves with the background

Is what I said, I was clearly talking about the background in your video (which anyone else would refer to as a background) not that the 3DO system itself.  That's why you didn't respond to the points I made their or your shitty Mode7 comparison vs. Atari karts, you don't know anything.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Leeroy ST]

12 minutes ago, Black_Tiger said:

Although the 3DO was still bottlenecked by the CD format, it benefited from being able to deliver mass amounts of assets per game. There are lots of 2D and 3D 3DO games with gratuitous cgi assets.

So just to clarify, you also believe that CD bottlenecked the PSX as well right?

[Black_Tiger]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

So just to clarify, you also believe that CD bottlenecked the PSX as well right?

Yes, that's how it works. Carts have limitless space to draw assets from. CD games have a small space to run all content from.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Sega had freaked out toward the Jaguar/PSX and adjusted its console before it's 1994 launch

If it wasn't already clear that you weren't legitimately interested in discussing the topic and are just reverse engineering from the perspective of <Jaguar, this is the most detached from reality example.

 

Sega of Japan wasn't even aware of the existence of the Jaguar and even if it was brought to their attention, it would have been of absolutely no concern to them.

 

The 3DO was a legit console with solid support in Japan, but still did not concern Sega. It likely still added to the influence to make CD the definitive format and support 3D graphics, but was still just yet another concole in the crowd.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Is what I said, I was clearly talking about the background in your video (which anyone else would refer to as a background) not that the 3DO system itself

Parallax effects have been around for thousands of years. I still simplified it for you by referencing the multiplane camera.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

That's why you didn't respond to the points I made their or your shitty Mode7 comparison vs. Atari karts, you don't know anything.

 

I have designed, drawn and shot parallax frame-by-frame on animation cameras and designed parallax for actual video games.

 

But the average classic game fan still understands the difference between Atari Karts and Way of the Warrior and sees the gratuitous WotW parallax for exactly what it is.

 

They also see no difference between Atari Karts and Street Racer SNES, but feel free to explain how you believe they are different.

 

The floor is scaling (& rotation?) with raster effects and the parallax is strips sliding left and right. Where is the 64-bit technology applied?

Edited September 20, 2020 by Black_Tiger

[turboxray]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Or maybe I am talking about the visual image of the background in the video to make a point and you're a lying deceiver trying to play semantics? 

 

Is what I said, I was clearly talking about the background in your video (which anyone else would refer to as a background) not that the 3DO system itself.  That's why you didn't respond to the points I made their or your shitty Mode7 comparison vs. Atari karts, you don't know anything.

No. You're just back peddling like an idiot. Maybe don't use terminology that doesn't apply to the situation. Anything that moves at a different rate based on distance.. is.. wait for it.. parallax. This isn't only of those silly arguments where you claim it isn't 'real parallax' because it's a sprite instead of background (which in and of itself is a retarded argument.. parallax is parallax. The only thing in which you can say is, what level of complex parallax is the system capable of.. and in the case of the 3DO.. the only limit is time, since it's a hardware blitter system). Your welcome.

[Leeroy ST]

2 minutes ago, Black_Tiger said:

Sega of Japan wasn't even aware of the existence of the Jaguar 

Yet the 32X was approved based on knowledge of it, hmmm.

 

3 minutes ago, Black_Tiger said:

Parallax effects have been around for thousands of years. I still simplified it for you by referencing the multiplane camera.

I didn't say it hasn't been around, you also aren't the person I was addressing and you removed the context out of your post so you aren't even on the same topic. No one made this argument. We were comparing the parallax and the "background" in a 3do game was stationary and didn't show parallax. 

 

4 minutes ago, Black_Tiger said:

They also see no difference between Atari Karts and Street Racer SNES, but feel free to explain how you believe they are different.

 

The floor is scaling/rotation with raster effects and the parallax is strips sliding left and right. Where is the 64-bit technolofy applied?

Which I already did with this quote:

Quote

All you did was show you don't know what parallax is, the only thing going on in your SNES game are two background layers shifting and one shifting plane that is the "track". One of the levels is a chain of the same background stadium seats copy and pasted.

 

The video of Atari Karts I posted has 3 more detailed backgrounds shifting and a 4th way in the back (static) with the the same ground rotation plane but with higher detail, cleaner graphics, higher res, and higher color count. This is consistent with EVERY TRACK.  IN addition some stages have better illusion of elevation with the feeling and visual of going up and down slants or hills, and there are sometimes scaling options ON the tracks as well while keeping everything I said above.

 

If SNES could easily do such a game you should be able to show it.

 

Street Racer is low detailed and pixelated with some tracks being almost like you're racing in a void with barely any background features (on the ground) outside of the track, and if they are there most of the time they are one or two small repeating textures. It has two shifting backgrounds that (when played on a real SNES) blur when they move and in some stages the movement jerks around and isn't even close to smooth like the circuit track, which also have floating stadium lamps not connected to anything and taking place during the dark. You think that's better than Atari Karts?

No they aren't even close too similar, if they are then I guess no Mode7 dev figured out how to make Mode7 work and Atari had to show the way. Or am more rational explanation is Atari Karts is more feature rich because the console is more powerful. 

 

 

[turboxray]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

So just to clarify, you also believe that CD bottlenecked the PSX as well right?

Wow! You literally know nothing of how any of this works do you? I guess the Saturn 1meg and 4meg ram carts were just for looks. smh

[Leeroy ST]

7 minutes ago, turboxray said:

No. You're just back peddling like an idiot. 

No. the quote is plain as day and unedited come on buddy let's try harder:

 

Quote

There are three stages in this video and none have complex parallax the closest is the last one with chains in the foreground moving but not an entire plane. One could confuse stage 2 chinese bridge and parallax but that's just a sprite object that moves with the background it's not an actual plane being moved.

 

What do you call that area in the background of this image? Not a background? Get out of here with your bullshit strawmen because you're argument is faulty. My point was the "bridge" was stationary and didn't move separately it's right there in the quote. It's clear I was referencing the video posted, you think you're slick?

Edited September 20, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[high voltage]

5 minutes ago, turboxray said:

No. You're just back peddling like an idiot. 

Less of the name calling, please.

[Leeroy ST]

5 minutes ago, turboxray said:

Wow! You literally know nothing of how any of this works do you? I guess the Saturn 1meg and 4meg ram carts were just for looks. smh

talk about jumping into a conversation without knowing the reasoning of the question, but you have already proven to be dishonest so it's not a surprise. Generally I don't hear the people use the term "bottlenecked" to refer to CD's, it's obvious CD's have limitations but that's an unusual term you will not find commonly used. Phrases like "CD bottlenecked the console" sound ridiculous without context.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[turboxray]

1 hour ago, high voltage said:

Less of the name calling, please.

Less of trying to be a faux mod, please.

 

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

No. the quote is plain as day and unedited come on buddy let's try harder:

 

 

What do you call that area in the background of this image? Not a background? Get out of here with your bullshit strawmen because you're argument is faulty. My point was the "bridge" was stationary and didn't move separately it's right there in the quote. It's clear I was referencing the video posted, you think you're slick?

For one, it's not a 'background plane'. This isn't the SNES or Genesis. Two, it's literally a 3D level. There are 5 angles to the 'background', not including the floor which is actually rotation and perspective to the camera rather than simple line scrolls. It's inherently parallax by nature. It has nothing to do with being slick. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by turboxray

[Leeroy ST]

23 minutes ago, turboxray said:

Less of trying to be a faux mod, please.

 

For one, it's not a 'background plane'. This isn't the SNES or Genesis. Two, it's literally a 3D level. There are 5 angles to the 'background', not including the floor which is actually rotation and perspective to the camera rather than simple line scrolls. It's inherently parallax by nature. It has nothing to do with being slick. 

You are really reaching for straws here, there were multiple "planes" that move in parallax games and not liking the term "plane" in this case even though it still applies is nothing but semantics and is irrelevant to the point that is crystal clear especially by other parts of this same thread (like the 3 shifting "planes" in Atari Karts that isn't in any SNES "mode 7" game like Street Racer which only has 2 shifting "planes")

 

You're basically twisting words and making up an non-existent argument to stroke your ego.

 

The very clear point was that one part of the visual shown in the video was stationary and did not "shift" hence why I said it was static and moved with the background. Everything else you said is BS.

 

Again I show this picture:

 

If you saw this in a video and wanted to describe the object in back wouldn't you say "it's that think in the background with the grey/red/black coloring?" yes normal people would, and then they would logically respond "yeah I see it" not "lol that's not a background here is a fake argument that was never made by twisting worlds."'

 

Go outside.

[turboxray]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

You are really reaching for straws here, there were multiple "planes" that move in parallax games and not liking the term "plane" in this case even though it still applies is nothing but semantics and is irrelevant to the point that is crystal clear especially by other parts of this same thread (like the 3 shifting "planes" in Atari Karts that isn't in any SNES "mode 7" game like Street Racer which only has 2 shifting "planes")

 

You're basically twisting words and making up an non-existent argument to stroke your ego.

 

The very clear point was that one part of the visual shown in the video was stationary and did not "shift" hence why I said it was static and moved with the background. Everything else you said is BS.

 

Again I show this picture:

 

If you saw this in a video and wanted to describe the object in back wouldn't you say "it's that think in the background with the grey/red/black coloring?" yes normal people would, and then they would logically respond "yeah I see it" not "lol that's not a background here is a fake argument that was never made by twisting worlds."'

 

Go outside.

Seriously??? Are you related to A Black Falcon? It's literally a 3D level to the perspective of the camera. It's not static. It's not like the flat background of SSF2. It is literally inherently parallax. It has nothing to do with Atari Karts. I have no idea why you're even brining that up, but since you totally lack any understand how these consoles work - yes the SNES can show three independent backgrounds above the mode 7 section of the screen. I don't know why you think it can't - just because it hasn't doesn't mean it can't. Or why it even needs to be brought up. Look - you made a bullshit claim (multiple actually), and I called you out on it. It has nothing to do with ego; say stupid stuff, get called out on it. Seriously, move on already.

[Black_Tiger]

Quote

IN addition some stages have better illusion of elevation with the feeling and visual of going up and down slants or hills, and there are sometimes scaling options ON the tracks as well while keeping everything I said above.

 

If SNES could easily do such a game you should be able to show it.

Here's one of them:

 

 

 

 

If you're going to now argue that Jaguar could do a better version of the same thing that the SNES does, that should put into perspective where the Jaguar falls within the 32-bit generation.

[Leeroy ST]

18 hours ago, turboxray said:

Seriously??? Are you related to A Black Falcon? It's literally a 3D level to the perspective of the camera. It's not static. 

You are taking my argument for your video and trying to fuse it with my example using the screenshot you quoted to confuse people. One was the issue I was referring to, the second was me trying to dumb things down for you to understand you were arguing semantics. If people read through the thread they can see you're a dishonest deceiver who loves to mislead people.

[Leeroy ST]

17 hours ago, Black_Tiger said:

Here's one of them:

 

 

 

 

If you're going to now argue that Jaguar could do a better version of the same thing that the SNES does, that should put into perspective where the Jaguar falls within the 32-bit generation.

 

Man you guys are so desperate you're helping my arguments by sabotaging yourselves. This is worst than Street racer

 

 

Your video had NO shifting layers in the "background" and only one general background is above the "ground" layer that your driving on.Using terms that anyone can follow.

 

Atari karts had 3 shifting "layers/planes" in the background and the standard background way in the back making 4 layers overall, with one "general" background and 3 shifting layers placed in front og the general background. To make things even easier for you I developed this simple image guide to help you:

 

 

Pay attention to where the arrows are when watching the video. 

 

1. The first arrow points to the rock formations, this is on a layer that shifts.

2. The second arrow points to the green sand hills, this is another layer behind the rock formations that shifts separately.

3. The 3rd arrow points to the city landscape which is a layer BEHIND both the rock formations and the sand hills, this also shifts separately from the other two.

4. The 4th arrow pointing up is the general background (which doesn't shift and is static as in "doesn't move" for those who don't get the context of the word static.)

 

So you have 3 shifts and a general background. In addition there is more playable space as it's wider than most other mode 7 games, sure you can't drive to every area you see off the track path but you can see most of it. Also compared to your video you have more colors, higher res, and less pixelation.

 

Find me a SNES game that has this image quality, a wider playing field and 3 shifting layers that move relatively smoothly, 4 if you include the general background. It doesn't exist, because the SNES can't do it, and neither could the other machines that came out around the time of the NES that wasn't a high-end 2D arcade machine.

 

You can't find it because it doesn't exist. Street racer only had two and the graphics in the layers aren't across the screen like seen in the above screenshot it's just repeating textures mostly, and the layers didn't shift/scale smoothly in many cases and often blurred. You're motorcycle game didn't even have any layers just the general background.

 

If the SNES or any other home device in its period could do a game like Atari Karts before or at the time of its release you should be able to show me but you can't because the game doesn't exist. 

 

I'm still waiting.

 

^{(for people who keep arguing they know about tech you sure don't.)}

 

Vast majority of SNES mode 7 games are narrow simplistic with nothing but a background and no scrolling layers. The most SNES games come up with that do is one but Street Racer is an example that "sometimes" had two and even then the graphics on those layers don't go across the screen the graphics are short in width and usually the same graphic is copy and pasted across the plane.

 

Mode 7 was a novelty but it's also a technical limitation, the more you try to improve on mode 7 on SNES the blurrier the game, the more pixelated the game, graphics get messed up in parallax often, and the shifting/scaling jerks and isn't smooth like on the Jaguar, which can had large shifting layers with graphics across the entire screen with vivid detail and without any built in mode 7 hardware which would make the game look worse if it had anyway. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Hwlngmad]

Without doing any advanced mathematics, I think the Jaguar is more powerful, but the 3DOs power is more easily accessible than the Jag.  I mean, let's face it, not every programmer is John Carmack.

[Leeroy ST]

16 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

Without doing any advanced mathematics, I think the Jaguar is more powerful, but the 3DOs power is more easily accessible than the Jag.  I mean, let's face it, not every programmer is John Carmack.

Actually we are discussion the Jaguars 2D in relation to the 3DO's 2D as 3DO clearly had the better specifications for 3D despite some consensus on several boards about Atari having the better "potential" but Atari messed up. Sure it's true they did mess up and perhaps their 3D may be a bit better than what we saw but with weak architecture for textures and polygons and lack of memory it's not stronger than the 3D.

 

However, 2d that is a different discussion, and the one we were having before people though Atari Karts was an SNES game.

 

Speaking of 3DO, 2D racing games of this style (BC racers) or other styles (Crash N burn/Mega Race) all have terrible frame rates and BC racers had bad draw no shifting layers runs in some cases in the single digits. And the CD/FMV excuse may have worked if the 3DO wasn't stronger than all the other devices the game released for that all ran the game better and more consistently. 

 

So it seems that

 

2D: Jaguar

3D: 3DO

 

unless the 3DO has some amazing 2D title proving devs were lazy and runs over the Jaguar which as far as I know, hasn't been found yet. especially since the consistency is hard to ignore and lack of 60fps 2D games.

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Lost Monkey]

Let's keep this going - this thread has all the potential to be EPIC!

[+Stephen]

Find me a racing game on the Jaguar that looks and plays anywhere close to Need for Speed on the 3D0 then come back and we'll discuss it

[Leeroy ST]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Find me a racing game on the Jaguar that looks and plays anywhere close to Need for Speed on the 3D0 then come back and we'll discuss it

Need For Speed isn't a 2D game though. That's the current argument is if the Jaguar had better 2D.