Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure

[Bill Loguidice]

5 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Blazing Star could run on a Jaguar with CD. Or most Neo-Geo games that are higher-end since the ram would be required.

To clarify, I meant Jaguar games released on cartridge that would have had issues or limitations being instead released on CD.

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

To clarify, I meant Jaguar games released on cartridge that would have had issues or limitations being instead released on CD.

Didn't Iron Soldier 2 lose some detail to Iron Soldier 1 and amount of play area/objects on field?

[+Stephen]

31 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

While I agree that the Jaguar being CD-based from day one would have hurt it in some ways, like with the hit to RAM, it's arguable the other advantages would likely outweigh those disadvantages. Are there any games we can point to that are cartridge-based that wouldn't have been possible on CD or, more accurately, would have been more limited in an appreciable way due to the RAM hit?

(By the way, bringing up a game like Highlander, just like bringing up a game like Supercross 3D, is playing dirty. )

I didn't know what else to compare it to, since there does not exist a CD based platformer on the system.  My argument still stands though - no way in hell could the system do Pitfall 3D.  Had I used Iron Soldier as an example, people would have told me "not fair - the big mech is meant to move slow, while Pitfall Harry is meant to run fast", etc.

[Bill Loguidice]

3 hours ago, Stephen said:

I didn't know what else to compare it to, since there does not exist a CD based platformer on the system.  My argument still stands though - no way in hell could the system do Pitfall 3D.  Had I used Iron Soldier as an example, people would have told me "not fair - the big mech is meant to move slow, while Pitfall Harry is meant to run fast", etc.

I was just joking about Highlander and Supercross 3D. They're two of the worst games ever made for a long list of reasons, so I was more implying that they're not good examples of much of anything other than really bad games. And of course I agree with the long-standing "Jaguar's untapped power" fallacy. It's not doing Pitfall 3D or any of the other games like Quake it could supposedly do if "programmed right."

[Leeroy ST]

Jaguar could possibly do Bubsy 3D though. I don't know if it could handle all those collectible orbs across entire stages though.   Also the circus nightmare soundtrack definitely doesn't sound like audio you need a CD for.

 

It's funny though, if that game came out in 1994 or 1995 on the Jaguar it would have been a revolution that everyone would be gawking at, to bad it came out in 1996, after Tombraider, Crash and Mario(Jp). 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Bill Loguidice]

35 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Jaguar could possibly do Bubsy 3D though. I don't know if it could handle all those collectible orbs across entire stages though.   Also the circus nightmare soundtrack definitely doesn't sound like audio you need a CD for.

 

It's funny though, if that game came out in 1994 or 1995 on the Jaguar it would have been a revolution that everyone would be gawking at, to bad it came out in 1996, after Tombraider, Crash and Mario(Jp). 

 

 

? All joking aside, the Jaguar certainly doesn't need more worst games of all time added to its collection, but I do think it is a shame there weren't more games with flat-shaded polygons. I really love the look of Zero 5 and it could have become the signature look of the system. It likely wouldn't have helped with sales much, but it certainly couldn't have hurt them.

[Leeroy ST]

7 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

? All joking aside, the Jaguar certainly doesn't need more worst games of all time added to its collection, but I do think it is a shame there weren't more games with flat-shaded polygons. I really love the look of Zero 5 and it could have become the signature look of the system. It likely wouldn't have helped with sales much, but it certainly couldn't have hurt them.

That's the type of game Jaguar was designed for. They weren't expecting to compete with games like Need for Speed and tried to push their hardware further than it's capabilities which is why we ended up with some low frame rate messes and very muddy graphics.

 

I actually like the look of games like Club Drive and Checkered Flag, problem is those games sucked.

[marcio_napoli]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

That's the type of game Jaguar was designed for. They weren't expecting to compete with games like Need for Speed and tried to push their hardware further than it's capabilities which is why we ended up with some low frame rate messes and very muddy graphics.

 

I actually like the look of games like Club Drive and Checkered Flag, problem is those games sucked.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I firmly believe we've never seen Jag's true potential.

 

Simple reason:  very small teams, underpaid, deadline pressures, possibly not very good programmers (it hurts to say, but that's true, no offense meant).

 

In my opinion, Rebellion games (AVP and Skyhammer) are the best to look at because of amazing art direction and texture work, not because they're pushing Jag's limits (these are mostly 3d boxes and nothing more).

 

IMO, the closest we've got to seeing Jag's full potential was Iron Soldier 2, with rock solid framerate, very high polygon count on screen and even higher each time an object exploded, most objects are fully textured, etc.

 

 

But IS 2 should impress even more, because most of that poly count is not dedicated to fixed level geometry, in other words, the ground is completely flat.

 

IF level geometry was a bit more complex regarding design (and the engine clearly supports that), it would easily be some 3d comparable to Saturn games.

 

I know that sounds insane, but when 2 enemies explode at the same time, so many polys fly on screen and the Jag never misses a beat, proving yes, it can handle high poly count indeed.

 

 

We've only never seen Jag's potential because it never had a Rare, Ubisoft, Capcom, Konami, Sega, Nintendo programming for it.

 

With the companies it had, be 200% sure the Jag never reached its full potential.

 

It's all about optimization.   

 

Most Jag devs were probably "how do I get out of this $hit" mode on every commercial game we've seen.

[zzip]

21 minutes ago, marcio_napoli said:

Simple reason:  very small teams, underpaid, deadline pressures, possibly not very good programmers (it hurts to say, but that's true, no offense meant).

 

In my opinion, Rebellion games (AVP and Skyhammer) are the best to look at because of amazing art direction and texture work, not because they're pushing Jag's limits (these are mostly 3d boxes and nothing more).

I think in a lot of cases BITD, many teams didn't even have dedicated artists or art direction, and it showed.

[JagChris]

1 hour ago, marcio_napoli said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I firmly believe we've never seen Jag's true potential.

 

IF level geometry was a bit more complex regarding design (and the engine clearly supports that), it would easily be some 3d comparable to Saturn games.

 

It's all about optimization.   

 

Most Jag devs were probably "how do I get out of this $hit" mode on every commercial game we've seen.

I'm the first to say we haven't seen all the Jag can do 2D and 3D. But it's not going to run with the Saturn in 3D. The Saturn is 3 years newer tech with Vram and more advanced 3D hardware. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by JagChris

[marcio_napoli]

11 minutes ago, JagChris said:

I'm the first to say we haven't seen all the Jag can do 2D and 3D. But it's not going to run with the Saturn in 3D. The Saturn is 3 years newer tech with Vram and more advanced 3D hardware. 

You're right, I may have been a bit too excited haha

 

But one bit to add:

 

The Jag, even if programmed to its fullest, is not going to compete with the very best the Saturn can do. 

 

But who knows, maybe Jag with the best optimization could compete with low end Saturn titles.

 

Take 3DO as an example.

 

If EA or Crystal Dynamics weren't programming for it and we had never seen Road Rash, Need for Speed or Fifa Soccer, would we know 3DO was that capable?

 

Because excluding some A+ titles from these 2 companies, the 3DO looked about as lame as the Jag on 3d.

 

Saying the Jag is the 3DO without EA and Crystal Dynamics, is not really far from the truth.

 

[Leeroy ST]

1 hour ago, marcio_napoli said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I firmly believe we've never seen Jag's true potential.

 

Simple reason:  very small teams, underpaid, deadline pressures, possibly not very good programmers (it hurts to say, but that's true, no offense meant).

 

In my opinion, Rebellion games (AVP and Skyhammer) are the best to look at because of amazing art direction and texture work, not because they're pushing Jag's limits (these are mostly 3d boxes and nothing more).

 

IMO, the closest we've got to seeing Jag's full potential was Iron Soldier 2, with rock solid framerate, very high polygon count on screen and even higher each time an object exploded, most objects are fully textured, etc.

 

 

But IS 2 should impress even more, because most of that poly count is not dedicated to fixed level geometry, in other words, the ground is completely flat.

 

IF level geometry was a bit more complex regarding design (and the engine clearly supports that), it would easily be some 3d comparable to Saturn games.

 

I know that sounds insane, but when 2 enemies explode at the same time, so many polys fly on screen and the Jag never misses a beat, proving yes, it can handle high poly count indeed.

 

 

We've only never seen Jag's potential because it never had a Rare, Ubisoft, Capcom, Konami, Sega, Nintendo programming for it.

 

With the companies it had, be 200% sure the Jag never reached its full potential.

 

It's all about optimization.   

 

Most Jag devs were probably "how do I get out of this $hit" mode on every commercial game we've seen.

But those polygons are mostly flat and single colored. Many untextured.

 

Starfighter is an example to use here, it has a textured play field that's large, while Iron Soldier has a large field but only the center is playable the rest just stretches out into the distance. While mech games are slow the Jaguar does not run either Iron Soldier at a good frame rate, and in Star Fighter buildings are textures, in Iron Soldier they are basically flat and featureless:

 

 

There are a few buildings that are textured in certain stages with other buildings and objects textured like the ones in the picture above. These are all destructible.

 

So how much more power could the Jag have if this is the best it can do with a medium-sized playfield with some objects textures and most untextured, with destructables that explode in polygons, with several enemies polygons or not on screen, at a bad frame rate?

 

The best I can see for the untapped power of the Jaguar is an Iron Soldier game at 20fps if they can unlock da powah. But it won't be able to create a playfield filled with textured objects. I think both Iron Soldiers and World Tour Racing, and Battle Morph having all the sames problems is not a coincidence.

 

I think that the system is not capable of a fully textured field at a good frame rate even simple textures. I think that's beyond the systems strengths and it should have focused on beautiful clean flat and shaded polygons instead of trying to catch the 3DO and later the Sat/PSX,

[Leeroy ST]

32 minutes ago, JagChris said:

I'm the first to say we haven't seen all the Jag can do 2D and 3D. But it's not going to run with the Saturn in 3D. The Saturn is 3 years newer tech with Vram and more advanced 3D hardware. 

Maybe early Saturn before they upgraded it the Jag might had had some chance though we don't have much in the way of prototype demos from that version of the Saturn for 3D games, some 2D stuff yeah. 

 

13 minutes ago, marcio_napoli said:

You're right, I may have been a bit too excited haha

 

But one bit to add:

 

The Jag, even if programmed to its fullest, is not going to compete with the very best the Saturn can do. 

 

But who knows, maybe Jag with the best optimization could compete with low end Saturn titles.

 

Take 3DO as an example.

 

If EA or Crystal Dynamics weren't programming for it and we had never seen Road Rash, Need for Speed or Fifa Soccer, would we know 3DO was that capable?

 

Because excluding some A+ titles from these 2 companies, the 3DO looked about as lame as the Jag on 3d.

 

Saying the Jag is the 3DO without EA and Crystal Dynamics, is not really far from the truth.

 

The 3DO still ran circles around the Jaguar in 3D even without those companies:

 

 

Slayer

Blade Force

Star Fighter

PO'ed

Grand Chef Kingdom

Doctor Hauzer

 

are just a few examples.

 

It does make me wonder though if the Jaguar could run Alone in the Dark. I see it having problems with some of the backgrounds, maybe with the Jaguar CD.

 

 

[marcio_napoli]

16 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

But those polygons are mostly flat and single colored. Many untextured.

 

Starfighter is an example to use here, it has a textured play field that's large, while Iron Soldier has a large field but only the center is playable the rest just stretches out into the distance. While mech games are slow the Jaguar does not run either Iron Soldier at a good frame rate, and in Star Fighter buildings are textures, in Iron Soldier they are basically flat and featureless:

 

 

There are a few buildings that are textured in certain stages with other buildings and objects textured like the ones in the picture above. These are all destructible.

 

So how much more power could the Jag have if this is the best it can do with a medium-sized playfield with some objects textures and most untextured, with destructables that explode in polygons, with several enemies polygons or not on screen, at a bad frame rate?

 

The best I can see for the untapped power of the Jaguar is an Iron Soldier game at 20fps if they can unlock da powah. But it won't be able to create a playfield filled with textured objects. I think both Iron Soldiers and World Tour Racing, and Battle Morph having all the sames problems is not a coincidence.

 

I think that the system is not capable of a fully textured field at a good frame rate even simple textures. I think that's beyond the systems strengths and it should have focused on beautiful clean flat and shaded polygons instead of trying to catch the 3DO and later the Sat/PSX,

Leeroy, not sure if I agree because those criticisms are for IS 1.

 

Most of IS 2 playing field is fully textured, it runs at least at 20 fps (I could confirm that I guess, but too lazy haha) and I'm not even saying IS2 is the Jag's full potential.

 

My post meant that IS2 (both actually) wasted rendering power on ways that are sub optimal.  Even the best the Jag did was sup optimized.

 

For example: 

 

Those pine trees are cones made of polys. No one asked for trees to look like cones, no one.  They should have instead used a sprite, a flat plane with a texture and alpha channel.  Less polys to render, and better looking trees, rendering power used with more efficiency.

 

 

The ground is completely flat, it's just an infinite plane.

 

How about taking some of those polys from enemies explosions, and use those instead on level geometry, like more buildings and cars (just boxes, very easy to render), or low poly mountains that could almost look like pyramids (not a shame here, even Star Fox 64 has ultra low poly mountain terrain).

 

Cover those mountains with a humble ammount of trees (again, flat planes with texture, don't consume too much rendering power).

 

For the explosions, do not waste gigantic amount of on screen polys.  Just use a small flat plane with explosion animated texture instead.

 

It's all about directing rendering power on a more efficient way.

 

I'm saying even IS2 didn't show us Jag's full potential, but it did show us small glimpses of it.

 

BTW, I'm not making a console war.

 

I had the 3DO in 1993 and absolutely LOVE it, it's for sure in my top 4 favorites of all time.

 

Yeah, 3DO's graphics were from another world in 1993, it was trully mesmerizing.

 

But the Jag had untapped power, it should have been much closer to the 3DO than it was.

 

Also, we could argue that even when it comes to failed consoles, the 3DO was miles ahead in commercial success.  It possibly had way better dev teams than the Jag (all consoles on Earth had better dev teams )

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

But those polygons are mostly flat and single colored. Many untextured.

 

Starfighter is an example to use here, it has a textured play field that's large, while Iron Soldier has a large field but only the center is playable the rest just stretches out into the distance. While mech games are slow the Jaguar does not run either Iron Soldier at a good frame rate, and in Star Fighter buildings are textures, in Iron Soldier they are basically flat and featureless:

 

 

There are a few buildings that are textured in certain stages with other buildings and objects textured like the ones in the picture above. These are all destructible.

 

So how much more power could the Jag have if this is the best it can do with a medium-sized playfield with some objects textures and most untextured, with destructables that explode in polygons, with several enemies polygons or not on screen, at a bad frame rate?

 

The best I can see for the untapped power of the Jaguar is an Iron Soldier game at 20fps if they can unlock da powah. But it won't be able to create a playfield filled with textured objects. I think both Iron Soldiers and World Tour Racing, and Battle Morph having all the sames problems is not a coincidence.

 

I think that the system is not capable of a fully textured field at a good frame rate even simple textures. I think that's beyond the systems strengths and it should have focused on beautiful clean flat and shaded polygons instead of trying to catch the 3DO and later the Sat/PSX,

Bad frame rate?? You know, actually it runs between 20-30 FPS lol 

[agradeneu]

49 minutes ago, marcio_napoli said:

Leeroy, not sure if I agree because those criticisms are for IS 1.

 

Most of IS 2 playing field is fully textured, it runs at least at 20 fps (I could confirm that I guess, but too lazy haha) and I'm not even saying IS2 is the Jag's full potential.

 

My post meant that IS2 (both actually) wasted rendering power on ways that are sub optimal.  Even the best the Jag did was sup optimized.

 

For example: 

 

Those pine trees are cones made of polys. No one asked for trees to look like cones, no one.  They should have instead used a sprite, a flat plane with a texture and alpha channel.  Less polys to render, and better looking trees, rendering power used with more efficiency.

 

 

The ground is completely flat, it's just an infinite plane.

 

How about taking some of those polys from enemies explosions, and use those instead on level geometry, like more buildings and cars (just boxes, very easy to render), or low poly mountains that could almost look like pyramids (not a shame here, even Star Fox 64 has ultra low poly mountain terrain).

 

Cover those mountains with a humble ammount of trees (again, flat planes with texture, don't consume too much rendering power).

 

For the explosions, do not waste gigantic amount of on screen polys.  Just use a small flat plane with explosion animated texture instead.

 

It's all about directing rendering power on a more efficient way.

 

I'm saying even IS2 didn't show us Jag's full potential, but it did show us small glimpses of it.

 

BTW, I'm not making a console war.

 

I had the 3DO in 1993 and absolutely LOVE it, it's for sure in my top 4 favorites of all time.

 

Yeah, 3DO's graphics were from another world in 1993, it was trully mesmerizing.

 

But the Jag had untapped power, it should have been much closer to the 3DO than it was.

 

Also, we could argue that even when it comes to failed consoles, the 3DO was miles ahead in commercial success.  It possibly had way better dev teams than the Jag (all consoles on Earth had better dev teams )

Fishing in the murky? I am pretty sure any Jag dev will have a good laugh. 

[Leeroy ST]

10 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Bad frame rate?? You know, actually it runs between 20-30 FPS lol 

There are times it drops below 20.

 

57 minutes ago, marcio_napoli said:

Leeroy, not sure if I agree because those criticisms are for IS 1.

 

Most of IS 2 playing field is fully textured, it runs at least at 20 fps (I could confirm that I guess, but too lazy haha) and I'm not even saying IS2 is the Jag's full potential.

 

My post meant that IS2 (both actually) wasted rendering power on ways that are sub optimal.  Even the best the Jag did was sup optimized.

 

For example: 

 

Those pine trees are cones made of polys. No one asked for trees to look like cones, no one.  They should have instead used a sprite, a flat plane with a texture and alpha channel.  Less polys to render, and better looking trees, rendering power used with more efficiency.

 

 

The ground is completely flat, it's just an infinite plane.

 

How about taking some of those polys from enemies explosions, and use those instead on level geometry, like more buildings and cars (just boxes, very easy to render), or low poly mountains that could almost look like pyramids (not a shame here, even Star Fox 64 has ultra low poly mountain terrain).

 

Cover those mountains with a humble ammount of trees (again, flat planes with texture, don't consume too much rendering power).

 

You aren't adding anything though, you are reducing some Jaguar impressive effects for others. That wouldn't bring it closer to the 3DO as you say, it would just be a different way of staying in the same place.

 

59 minutes ago, marcio_napoli said:

BTW, I'm not making a console war.

 

I had the 3DO in 1993 and absolutely LOVE it, it's for sure in my top 4 favorites of all time.

 

Yeah, 3DO's graphics were from another world in 1993, it was trully mesmerizing.

 

But the Jag had untapped power, it should have been much closer to the 3DO than it was.

 

Also, we could argue that even when it comes to failed consoles, the 3DO was miles ahead in commercial success.  It possibly had way better dev teams than the Jag (all consoles on Earth had better dev teams )

I know you are not making a console war, you believe that the Jaguar could be closure to the 3DO. I'm just not sure that's the case especially looking at the processors of the Jaguar and the games we've seen that seem to all make the same compromises. Those memory issues will always be a problem.

 

Some homebrew demos do look promising, as did the unreleased Dractyl game that did show maybe there might be some untapped power, I guess the question is how much. Keep in mind 3DO hasn't had many homebrews at all and the Jaguar has been tinkered with since the 90's.

 

[Leeroy ST]

I believe the Jaguar could run Virtua Fighter. Fight for Life was rushed but I think VF is possible may have to drop a few polygons but not enough to make a huge difference. More than the 32X version for sure, and better music. 

 

That's the type of game I think it excels at, good looking flat or shaded polygons.

[agradeneu]

7 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

There are times it drops below 20.

 

 

 

Does not make it a "bad framerate", isn't it? All 3D games on 3DO are dropping frames as well, often going under 15 FPS or lower, e.g. Po'ed, Road Rash, NFS. 

Anything over 20 FPS was really high quality before Playstation. Actually, the first Iron Soldier had one of the most fluid animation for early 3D on consoles.

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by agradeneu

[phoboz]

Why keep the discussion about what was in the past. Look at the situation today. Look how many cool homebrews we are getting for the Jaguar, while the PlayStation 1, 3DO etc. are all dead.

 

I didn't have a Jaguar back in the day (nor did I care about it), but I got one about a year ago and I absolutely love it (so much I even started to develop games for it myself)

 

And it really shines in certain areas, one of it's perticulary strong points is it's Super Scaler capabilities, utilized by for example Super Burnout. That's why I decided my first game for it (e.g. Wormhole 2000) should be a game that really takes advantage of that.

 

So we have seen so many lists about the most successful consoles of all times. Well I would like to see a list of the most successful consoles in the homebrew scene, e.g. the console that still have a life today. My list would definitely include two consoles that didn't do so well when they were released, but today they have a load of great games released for them every year.

 

This is my list so far:

1. Vectrex

2. Atari Jaguar

 

The Jaguar is a sprite beast that even outperforms the higly regarded NeoGeo.

 

PS. Sorry for deviating from the Pitfall topic, but I respond to the discussion above.

Edited September 29, 2020 by phoboz

[Bill Loguidice]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Some homebrew demos do look promising, as did the unreleased Dractyl game that did show maybe there might be some untapped power, I guess the question is how much. Keep in mind 3DO hasn't had many homebrews at all and the Jaguar has been tinkered with since the 90's.

 

I'm always skeptical of demos like Dactyl Joust because there's no telling what the performance would be like once you put in the rest of the elements that make a game a game. That could really drag down the framerate into something closer to some of the more infamous Jaguar games.

While some Jaguar homebrews are really good, a lot of them definitely play it on the safer side in terms of trying to push the system or show something not shown technically on the system before. Anyone developer who has claimed to push the system or has tried to push the system has never really produced an actual game to demonstrate something like that in a remotely convincing way. But heck, if someone ever did, there certainly would be some long suffering Jaguar superfans ready to deify them.

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, phoboz said:

The Jaguar is a sprite beast that even outperforms the higly regarded NeoGeo.

That's going a bit far. I'd say each can definitely outperform the other in some areas.

[+Stephen]

You do realize that pretty much every single 3D release on the Jag is doing at best, a few hundred polygons per SCREEN?  The oldest original demo that shipped with the Playstation ("The Dinosaur" demo) pushes more polygons than anything the Jag could hope to do.  It's 2020 - let's try to be realistic about this.  I had my Jag since 1994 and my Playstation since 95 and it's been painfully obvious for those 25 years what each system can and cannot do.

[JagChris]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Does not make it a "bad framerate", isn't it? All 3D games on 3DO are dropping frames as well, often going under 15 FPS or lower, e.g. Po'ed, Road Rash, NFS. 

Anything over 20 FPS was really high quality before Playstation. Actually, the first Iron Soldier had one of the most fluid animation for early 3D on consoles.

 

 

 

I think it would have been interesting if the jaguar  had survived longer developers got to pool their resources and combine everything they learned like the LRU cache system the blitter trick or the GPU in main techniques. Along with branching the display list and what Eclipse learned that they said they partially got to use in Iron Soldier 2 about improving the Jags Performance and texturing. I think things would have been very interesting.

Edited September 30, 2020 by JagChris

[+CyranoJ]

3 hours ago, JagChris said:

like the LRU cache system the blitter trick or the GPU in main techniques.

Edge case optimisations don't make great games.