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Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure

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Wasn't Another Other World more popular than Flashback? I wonder why they never ported that to the Jaguar to cash in. Flash back is the only one that had a sequel back then though maybe it did better than I thought.

 

18 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

Updated post. 

 

Bob Gleadow said Jaguar would come in at £200

 

Peter Walker said games would cost around £20.

 

This after the Falcon arrived £100 more expensive than originally annouced, Atari blaming that on exchange rates. 

So the exchange rates wouldn't impact the Jaguar price?

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1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

Wasn't Another Other World more popular than Flashback? I wonder why they never ported that to the Jaguar to cash in. Flash back is the only one that had a sequel back then though maybe it did better than I thought.

 

So the exchange rates wouldn't impact the Jaguar price?

The Falcon price hike was more severe and recieved an official explanation. 

 

The Jaguar's wasn't and didn't. 

 

There were price hikes to the ST line before this and that was due to Ram prices going up. 

 

Atari UK may well of jumped the gun and speculated on prices, when they had yet to be set. 

 

There are a number of possible factors as to why the prices increased. 

 

Tramiel repeatedly put emphasis on wanting the Jaguar to be as low cost as possible and that meant no optical drive. 

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Not everyone will agree, but I absolutely love that the Jag is cart based, in fact same applies to all cart based consoles.

 

No CD means no expiration date of the laser cannon, no loading times (huuuuuuge advantage), devs focus on more arcade-ish games, no rubbish FMV (these were AWESOME in the 90s when we haven't seen anything like it. In 2020, these are just annoyances slowing down the game's pace).

 

Did I mention no loading times????

 

You can throw in even minor things, like carts have actual personality (not just a boring plastic disc), carts need less care (I'm 100% sure if I could find my 90s CDs, they must be covered in scratches), etc.

 

Jag being a cart console is amazing. Same applies to N64, which a lot of people claim it would be better being CD. Not to me.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

The Falcon price hike was more severe and recieved an official explanation. 

 

The Jaguar's wasn't and didn't. 

 

There were price hikes to the ST line before this and that was due to Ram prices going up. 

 

Atari UK may well of jumped the gun and speculated on prices, when they had yet to be set. 

 

There are a number of possible factors as to why the prices increased. 

 

Tramiel repeatedly put emphasis on wanting the Jaguar to be as low cost as possible and that meant no optical drive. 

Seems odd considering iirc 3DO's disc drive was only ~$150 back in 1993 and only one year later the Atari moved to start making a CD add-on that would also be $150 launching the year after. Atari even mentioned CD in 1993 during launch.

 

Maybe it's just Atari being Atari again and the real reason is because they didn't have faith in the CD or another reason. I can't see a drive significantly increasing the Jaguars price.

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28 minutes ago, marcio_napoli said:

the laser cannon, 

 

 

LOL

 

29 minutes ago, marcio_napoli said:

no loading times 

 

Did I mention no loading times????

 

 

N64 says hi. But yeah for the Jaguar no loading times was pretty sweet (also Jaguar had some damn good audio if the developers used it.)

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8 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Seems odd considering iirc 3DO's disc drive was only ~$150 back in 1993 and only one year later the Atari moved to start making a CD add-on that would also be $150 launching the year after. Atari even mentioned CD in 1993 during launch.

 

Maybe it's just Atari being Atari again and the real reason is because they didn't have faith in the CD or another reason. I can't see a drive significantly increasing the Jaguars price.

While I don't think it necessarily would have made enough of a difference for the Jaguar considering its historically low sales for a major system, it is true that with CD-based software, more could be produced at lower risk and lower cost, so it certainly could have helped with the flow of new software, which certainly wouldn't have hurt. Of course, the other thing that would have helped was more of the third parties coming through that promised support, or were at least advertised as having promised support, which again, may have been helped if it was a CD-based console from the beginning.

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9 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

While I don't think it necessarily would have made enough of a difference for the Jaguar considering its historically low sales for a major system, it is true that with CD-based software, more could be produced at lower risk and lower cost, so it certainly could have helped with the flow of new software, which certainly wouldn't have hurt. Of course, the other thing that would have helped was more of the third parties coming through that promised support, or were at least advertised as having promised support, which again, may have been helped if it was a CD-based console from the beginning.

I don't think that with it's other more prominent issues that CD would have "saved" the Jaguar unless that would mean maybe not going bankrupt and putting out another console which would still be questionable. However, it would possibly help third party sales and allow popular games like Myst to be on the console earlier when the game was relevant instead of two years after the fact. It also may have gotten some of that earlier 3DO support.

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2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

I don't think that with it's other more prominent issues that CD would have "saved" the Jaguar

Not even Sony not releasing the Playstation would have saved the Jaguar.  Still a fun system though, and I'm glad I got mine in 94 and kept it!  Regarding CD reliability.  My Jag obviously works like day one as it is cart based.  The CD player works because even though I have all the CD games, I only used it for VLM.  My 1st generation SCH-1000 Playstation CD just died.  I'm getting a flash based solution for it.  Dreamcast - CD player is going strong and it played 90% "backups".

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Would Jaguar CD been able to handle Pitfall 3D? The Playstation game? I actually liked that game...

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1 hour ago, tripled79 said:

Would Jaguar CD been able to handle Pitfall 3D? The Playstation game? I actually liked that game...

The CD brings nothing to the Jag really.  It gives it no more computational power, just more storage and the ability to stream audio.  But it takes some main RAM away as well.

 

OK - just watched some video.  No - the Jag wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of pulling that off.  No more chance than it would doing Quake.  I know there will be people here exclaiming "just wait until some awesome new game comes out that shows just what the jag could do, and you'll see".  Well, ain't happening.

 

I wish I could find my discussions with Battlesphere grand asshole Scott LeGrand, discussing Playstation and Crash Bandicoot when it just released.  Was funny - he said that yeah, the Jag could never do it, but the PSX cheated because Bandicoot has such a limited draw distance compared to Battleshpere.  There's always been such a strange aura around the Jag.

 

For anyone wondering.  Compare Highlander on Jag CD (few dozen polygons over streaming 2D nackgrounds), to Pitfall 3D on Jaguar if you doubt what I wrote above.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Stephen said:

Not even Sony not releasing the Playstation would have saved the Jaguar.  Still a fun system though, and I'm glad I got mine in 94 and kept it!  Regarding CD reliability.  My Jag obviously works like day one as it is cart based.  The CD player works because even though I have all the CD games, I only used it for VLM.  My 1st generation SCH-1000 Playstation CD just died.  I'm getting a flash based solution for it.  Dreamcast - CD player is going strong and it played 90% "backups".

, The PS1 did not kill the Jag, it was the SNES or Genesis. When Atari dropped the price for the Jaguar as a final attempt, it was competing with the old 16 bit systems. But both had better games and software support.

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While I'm glad the Jaguar CD module was a thing for the VLM, a few good titles, and the later loading of homebrew games; I prefer cartridge based games.

 

I use my CD add on sparingly these days, mostly to play Battlemorph.   So Pitfall on cartridge I can play without some "guilt".  :D 

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I don't think Highlander is the CD game you want to compare to Pitfall 3D, but yes, the Jaguar would have issues running a game like Pitfall 3D, maybe the 3DO could run it, but not the Jaguar for sure.

 

6 hours ago, agradeneu said:

, The PS1 did not kill the Jag, it was the SNES or Genesis. 

It was the 3DO and the PSX that killed the Jaguar which stole all the potential third party support it would have had and stole some would be exclusives. The Jaguar was only competing with the "16 bits" at the beginning, then they tired to be ambitious which is why you have games like well

 

Club Drive. So called "open world 3D experience you'll never forget" yup. Also that Orange box is supposed to be a cat, yeah I know.

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Being CD based from Day 1, would of jacked up the price to a launch $350-400, cheaper than 3d0, a little more than a Sega CD, in retrospect probably a better move with the limitations they ran into with IBM producing the system, and lack of systems in launch year.  But, the system would of still suffered from most of the 3rdparty support as, it was hard to program and Atari was fronting the money (they didnt have) to make legacy payments to get games on the system, they had a ton of games that were started and never got made because Atari didn't pay for  completion.

 

Atari Jaguar would of probably got 10 to 20 more games in their library of games released on all the cd systems at the time, but it wouldn't of changed the system bombing,all the same variables were their, 3D0,couldn't survive and it had EA support one of the biggest 3rd parties, Street Fighter, most the popular neo geo games and a huge library but Playstation came to the picture and crushed what lead it had in 1 Christmas season.

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I think the 3D0 failed because it was priced too high. They were trying to make money on systems sold rather than software. That was crazy.

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4 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Club Drive. So called "open world 3D experience you'll never forget"

Well, they weren't lying. Anyone who's ever played Club Drive remembers the experience.

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15 minutes ago, Zerosquare said:

Well, they weren't lying. Anyone who's ever played Club Drive remembers the experience.

Yeah actually you're right now that I think about it haha. I guess they didn't specify "good" or "bad" experience.

 

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

I think the 3D0 failed because it was priced too high. They were trying to make money on systems sold rather than software. That was crazy.

Yeah but it wasn't because of the CD, it was because of the business model, and having CD and powerful hardware for the time helped cause more pain due to that business model.

 

However they did try to make money on Software, 1993 they did double their fees to developers, though it was still much much lower than the competition at the time or what Sony and Sega would charge for PSX and Saturn. So it still wasn't enough.

 

Also playing Price war with PSX to stay "ahead" pretty much killed 3DO. Goldstar had to drop out because they couldn't do it. If 3DO was a richer company 3DO may have sold more consoles with cut-throat price aggression and maybe wouldn't have abandoned the M2 but it wasn't. 

 

I think 3Do's business strategy could only work with a large company. Microsoft probably could have attempted that strategy in 1993 and took a loss keeping the price low. I mean, that's what they did in 2001, took a $4 billion beating to get the sales and support than launched the profitable system later while taking the original quickly out the market outside supporting software until 2007.

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27 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

I think 3Do's business strategy could only work with a large company. Microsoft probably could have attempted that strategy in 1993 and took a loss keeping the price low. I mean, that's what they did in 2001, took a $4 billion beating to get the sales and support than launched the profitable system later while taking the original quickly out the market outside supporting software until 2007.

What you are mentioning is the exact opposite of 3do's strategy. They didn't take a loss keeping the price low.

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On 9/25/2020 at 7:22 PM, Stephen said:

The CD brings nothing to the Jag really.  It gives it no more computational power, just more storage and the ability to stream audio.  But it takes some main RAM away as well.

 

OK - just watched some video.  No - the Jag wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of pulling that off.  No more chance than it would doing Quake.  I know there will be people here exclaiming "just wait until some awesome new game comes out that shows just what the jag could do, and you'll see".  Well, ain't happening.

 

I wish I could find my discussions with Battlesphere grand asshole Scott LeGrand, discussing Playstation and Crash Bandicoot when it just released.  Was funny - he said that yeah, the Jag could never do it, but the PSX cheated because Bandicoot has such a limited draw distance compared to Battleshpere.  There's always been such a strange aura around the Jag.

 

For anyone wondering.  Compare Highlander on Jag CD (few dozen polygons over streaming 2D nackgrounds), to Pitfall 3D on Jaguar if you doubt what I wrote above.

 

 

 

But you would need CD audio for all of Bruce Campbell's voice, right?

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17 hours ago, madman said:

What you are mentioning is the exact opposite of 3do's strategy. They didn't take a loss keeping the price low.

I said that Microsoft is the only one who could have had a similar business model and take the loss. LG/Panasonic/3DO could not which is why the price was high. The business model was licensing out hardware and in order for prices to not be $700 (though they probably could have made it $500 if they wanted to Panasonic wasn't that much of a slouch and had money) they would have to take massive losses monthly. Especially at the start since it took a year for software to start selling and coming in as software was slow for the first several months.

 

Microsoft would have been one of the few (and Sony during this time) who could have absorbed the losses and had the same license strategy (also giving partners a relief of spending their own money or at least not as much) to actually work. 3DO was a start-up and didn't have the money to lose on even cheaper hardware which is why they went with that strategy, they couldn't even handle losses on an SNES tier device and handle the software at once, so Panasonic and LG had to pick the hardware costs up, though 3DO shared a bit of it, while 3DO handled software, with a very cheap introductory fee for developers which was later doubled but eventually became an issue once a ton of games started flowing in, then 3DO had to make their own studios etc and Panasonic/LG had to make their own studios as well.

 

3DO's strategy wasn't to not take loss on a console, it was to avoid hardware period and license it out only eating some of the costs while the manufactuers at the cost, because they themselves didn't have the money. Microsoft would have been able to handle any losses and also take on some of Panasonics/LG's losses to help them out a bit to keep the console prices low. 

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6 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

I said that Microsoft is the only one who could have had a similar business model and take the loss. LG/Panasonic/3DO could not which is why the price was high. The business model was licensing out hardware and in order for prices to not be $700 (though they probably could have made it $500 if they wanted to Panasonic wasn't that much of a slouch and had money) they would have to take massive losses monthly. Especially at the start since it took a year for software to start selling and coming in as software was slow for the first several months.

 

Microsoft would have been one of the few (and Sony during this time) who could have absorbed the losses and had the same license strategy (also giving partners a relief of spending their own money or at least not as much) to actually work. 3DO was a start-up and didn't have the money to lose on even cheaper hardware which is why they went with that strategy, they couldn't even handle losses on an SNES tier device and handle the software at once, so Panasonic and LG had to pick the hardware costs up, though 3DO shared a bit of it, while 3DO handled software, with a very cheap introductory fee for developers which was later doubled but eventually became an issue once a ton of games started flowing in, then 3DO had to make their own studios etc and Panasonic/LG had to make their own studios as well.

 

3DO's strategy wasn't to not take loss on a console, it was to avoid hardware period and license it out only eating some of the costs while the manufactuers at the cost, because they themselves didn't have the money. Microsoft would have been able to handle any losses and also take on some of Panasonics/LG's losses to help them out a bit to keep the console prices low. 

This all sounds like lovely discussion on a 3DO thread as opposed to a Pitfall the Mayan Adventure topic...

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20 hours ago, tripled79 said:

This all sounds like lovely discussion on a 3DO thread as opposed to a Pitfall the Mayan Adventure topic...

I suppose if you pretend people weren't talking about flashback, which is how 3DO came bout in the conversation.

 

Anyway Jaguar could have benefited from a CD, I was pointing out how CD probably wouldn't have raised the Jaguars price, would have gave it more software and maybe a better version of flash back.

 

The fact the Jaguar didn't even get Another World is telling.

 

Pitfall 3D on PSX wouldn't be capable on a CD-frist Jaguar(you mentioned that) but Pitfall Mayan Adventure could have had a nice upgrade.

Edited by Leeroy ST

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While I agree that the Jaguar being CD-based from day one would have hurt it in some ways, like with the hit to RAM, it's arguable the other advantages would likely outweigh those disadvantages. Are there any games we can point to that are cartridge-based that wouldn't have been possible on CD or, more accurately, would have been more limited in an appreciable way due to the RAM hit?

(By the way, bringing up a game like Highlander, just like bringing up a game like Supercross 3D, is playing dirty. ;-))

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8 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

While I agree that the Jaguar being CD-based from day one would have hurt it in some ways, like with the hit to RAM, it's arguable the other advantages would likely outweigh those disadvantages. Are there any games we can point to that are cartridge-based that wouldn't have been possible on CD or, more accurately, would have been more limited in an appreciable way due to the RAM hit?

Blazing Star could run on a Jaguar with CD. Or most Neo-Geo games that are higher-end since the ram would be required.

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