Jump to content
IGNORED

games are crap...


Heaven/TQA

Recommended Posts

...http://www.atari8bit-software.de/index.htm

 

going through this list most of the games (and here i am on the side of emkay...) don'T use the capabilities of the machine... sorry...

 

so much crap... ;)

 

and displaying a 4 color charmode maze is not using the potential...

 

hve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is how it is ....

 

 

Many Games like

 

Boulder Dash

International Karate

Montezuma's Revenge

Rockman

Spelunker

 

don't need better graphics...

 

Very much games are using silly graphics and the coder tried to "upgrade" it with weird DLIs.

Well this looks once good. But not if used in "every" game.

 

OK. Overlay and Charmode are making it more difficult to code animated graphics. But it is not impossible. Nearly all graphic-adventures could have real 128 color pictures, but they had mostly 4 colors. Games like Amaurote could have been more colorfull by overlays.... and so on...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion International Karate is one of the best looking Atari games!?

But you are right, most of the games don't use the capacity of the good old Atari.

But well, look @ other Plattforms, it's always the same, some great looking games and very much more garbage (also on c64).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:D just few gems are in the list like ik, pastfinder, dropzone, boulder dash, mule, rainbow walker, ... but look how many "gr.7" games are there... ladies... ;)

 

i know that there are a lot of PD and freeware games but... i was shocked how many are so ugly... when i went through the list and it popped up my mind that i played most of them 'til death...

 

one game came into my mind... which i played months and months: Flip & Flop... it was a nice atari game... had smooth scrolling, nice colorful gfx and was playable... and had a nice concept with the "flipping" effect + the iso 3d... i searched the net and have just found this list

 

http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~ngsippel/cv/game.designers

 

did he really just coded 1 game at all??? at that day (80s) he must be one of the average atari coders... james mangano... anybody news?

 

@ zyclonebane

 

don't take it personal.... :D

 

@ bryde

 

sector copier rules! and turbo basic and dos 2.5 and well... most utility used was sector copier (and its derivates)

 

hve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~ngsippel/cv/game.designers

 

did he really just coded 1 game at all??? at that day (80s) he must be one of the average atari coders... james mangano... anybody news?

 

The list doesn't show everything. Look at Tod Frye's entry...for example. Or Gerry Kitchen's (not credited for DK?? One of the most sold titles in 2600 history).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ zyclone

 

nope. i am not euro on us... this is an atari board and not a political board. otherwise i would write other things... ;) can not understand why the hell you mention this here... i was involved in tons of discussions which 8bit system was better and worser and i fought many discussions with emkay who's opinion is that atari coders never used the 90% of the machine... (search the boards...)

 

and if you go through the list (and not just discussion because blinded by sweet memories like i was...) really title by title look just on the screenshots (ok... not the best way...) and you could realise what i ment with my provocative statement...

 

nevermind... :D

 

ps. i am atari fanatic and coded a lot of stuff... even crap ones...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the point of this thread is:

 

Most of us are ATARI-Nuts ;) and we like to play old games though...even most of us are proud to be an "Atarian" :)

By taking a look at the released Software for the 8-Bit (5200 and XL/XE) what was done:

 

Mostly 4 colors at a resolution of 160x192(160x96) and simple 4-channel beep sound.

Possible was up to 320x192 with colors or 160x192 with 128 colors and sound with 8 Channel synthesis....

 

Nearly all games did use simple - out of the book - techniques.

Some games used partial enhanced features (some DLIs and digidrums)

 

Did anyone see Games with real 128 color graphics at 160x192 and full synthesized sounds and music that taked advantage of that?

 

No?

 

 

Why? (this is only an obligatory question ;) )

 

 

After all... you are proud of the ATARI? How proud would you be if you had games with 128 color graphics at 160x192 and full synthesized sounds?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got a point...but how many companies were willing to invest so much R&D into games at a time when there wasn't much to compare themselves to anyway? I'm guessing that the library of games would have been -much- smaller if less emphesis was placed on gameplay and more on the visual/aural aspects. But I've also run across games that were visually stunning, but sucked last year's donkeys to play. So it goes both ways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nukey Shay

 

Shure better graphics and sound are not a provement for playability.

The question is: After the release of Tetris (for example) with simple 4 colors and beep sounds, why there are again and again Tetris variants with 4 colors and beep sounds....

Or... why did ATARI gamingcrap like Food Fight with 4 colors and beep sound again in 1987 ?

 

And why are (ex) C64 coders necessary to understand my suggestions ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you guys are a little harsh on the old games - because it's damned hard (if not impossible) to create a playable game with moving graphics using some of the techniques Emkay is describing!

 

Just my opinion but - for several years after the 8-bit came along there was nothing to touch what it could do using fairly standard Atari techniques such as player/missile reuse and DLIS, and they were easy to use (these were used right from the beginning. Don't know of a much better documented 8-bit than the Atari). Only a year or two after the C64 came along, did anyone really up the ante, and programmers were seeing stuff in the arcades, and thinking "I wonder if...". The Atari's market share was plummeting by this time, so the only market left was for bargin basement budget games - why chase technical glory for no reward?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mostly agree with emkay: this attitude has hurt and continues to hurt the Atari 8-bit. For one thing, always referring to the past is negative.

 

I sometimes feel we're still stuck in the eighties... Why is it that so few people want technical PROGRESS? C64 users are really smarter: more thinking, more views, more complex games, nicer graphics...

 

Look at what's been done! Watch those European demos! There are tools available to do more than 1982-like games. This is year 2003 and the resources are numerous! Listen to people like emkay, Heaven, JBJ, Fox, Raster...: they know their stuff! Open up!

 

Classic games are OK but this is getting ridiculous. If people think a more complex program on the Atari necessarily has less playability, they're heading for the wrong direction. I'm not saying better graphics make for better gameplay but more ambition will benefit the entire community. Heck, if some of you don't want anything better, don't bother, just take your VCS!

 

Sorry if I sound aggressive but I've been an Atari 8-bit nut for twenty years and it's always the same old song...

 

++

RC

++

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shure better graphics and sound are not a provement for playability.

 

i'd say they're important to the development and indeed survival of a machine, if at least one in ten games released can't do something "new and improved" over what has been before the impetus for others to push the machine is less. On the C64 for example (since that's the machine i really know from direct experience) the games were always trying to go one step further, backroom coders sat down and tried to wedge as much into the machine as possible.

 

Games like Fred's Back, Mayhem In Monsterland or Enforcer push the C64 in ways i doubt the designers ever thought people would be able to but it was a cumulative process to get to those titles and the R&D costs were absorbed by the developers, not because they felt they needed to shovel eye candy in but because they wanted to make the best game they could from both the playability and visual standpoints.

 

And why are (ex) C64 coders necessary to understand my suggestions ?

 

Hey, are you referring to me...? i'm hardly an ex C64 coder! =-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see your point and agree to an extent. IMO if someone is limiting themselves to 16K then there needs to be a balance between game play and visuals (with emphasis on game play).

 

When I used my A8 years ago I didn't have the resources available to me today. When I first saw the demos from the user groups in Europe my mouth dropped. I really didn't know the A8 was capable of such beautiful displays.

 

Getting these to work would take a lot of work and thinking outside the box. I don't think that's a bad thing. Also, we have ways of communicating now which are far better than the ways we communicated back in the 80s. There is always someone that may be more skilled than yourself in a certain area. Just because you don't know how to do something is not an excuse. You can always search around and ask others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mostly agree with emkay: this attitude has hurt and continues to hurt the Atari 8-bit. For one thing, always referring to the past is negative.

 

I sometimes feel we're still stuck in the eighties... Why is it that so few people want technical PROGRESS? C64 users are really smarter: more thinking, more views, more complex games, nicer graphics...  

 

Look at what's been done! Watch those European demos! There are tools available to do more than 1982-like games. This is year 2003 and the resources are numerous! Listen to people like emkay, Heaven, JBJ, Fox, Raster...: they know their stuff! Open up!

 

Classic games are OK but this is getting ridiculous. If people think a more complex program on the Atari necessarily has less playability, they're heading for the wrong direction. I'm not saying better graphics make for better gameplay but more ambition will benefit the entire community. Heck, if some of you don't want anything better, don't bother, just take your VCS!  

 

Sorry if I sound aggressive but I've been an Atari 8-bit nut for twenty years and it's always the same old song...  

 

++

RC

++

 

We are still stuck in the eighties here, after all, this machine is dead!

 

It's asking a lot to expect homebrewers to be able to surpass some quite awesome efforts from back in the day. Only recently is there any renewed interest in these old systems, and you can't expect amateurs to produce triple A products straight out the door, even if they're "standing on the shoulders of giants" and have a lot more help these days/

 

A demo is not the same as a complete game. I doubt even the demo writers themselves would claim to be able to turn some of their superb efforts into whole games. Some of the effects leave little room for anything else to be added - fully using the available memory and CPU cycles. Not to say anything regarding the amount of time and effort required to develop said games.

 

Still I agree that there's not a lot of point doing what has been done to death before. It's just that everyone feels obliged to write a space invaders clone to get themselves started :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sheddy

 

 

>We are still stuck in the eighties here, after all, this machine is dead!

 

If this machine is dead.... why is so much happening about it?

I think: The problem is in the "better" technique of newer systems, which is not really better.

Having a look at LPs... this year are more sold than the last ten years. Why? CD and DVD are "so much better" (but not in all cases).

 

 

>It's asking a lot to expect homebrewers to be able to surpass some quite awesome efforts from back in the day. Only recently is there any renewed interest in these old systems, and you can't expect amateurs to produce triple A products straight out the door, even if they're "standing on the shoulders of giants" and have a lot more help these days/

 

Looking back to 1989 I (a true homebrewer) didn't truely stand on shoulders of giants. PCs were better typewriters...

I assumed all possibilities I knew and made a GAME that was looking better than most of the Demos in that time.

In the same case I did the MCS pictures...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

sheddy, the point is that we are not talking necessarly about homebrewers...

 

i coded demos only... (ok... several basic/MC simple games on VIC-20 and 8bit atari) and demo is something completly different than game coding but...

 

i was supprised how many from my point of view crap games were out there (i have even tons of them at home... on last weekend i found my original rampage disc...)... and how many of them i have bought...

 

look at www.c64.com and compare the games (no i don't count spectrum as a comparable machine... ;) no i don't want to start this discussion again... but where is the attidue to push the machine to the limit or try different things like emkay said?

 

look... take a look at trailblazer.... a nice game with fast raster gfx... but WHY did they use gr.7 for the background and not like dimension X highres or gr.15??? it's "just simple display list changing"... they might be reasons but... i do not understand...

 

where are the rescue on fractalus, koronis rift, rainbow walker, summer games ii, ultimas, whizball, comet, pirates, seven cities of gold, pitfall 2, pole positions, dig dugs, etc....

 

i miss the innovation... and i have to admit that TMR might right...did atari coders ever thought "we are pushing the machine to the limit?"

 

why have Epyx experimented with overlay highres sprites to get better looking sprites in summer games and the atari version is absolutly bad compared to the c64 one?

 

but why on the other hand did archer mclean invented a fast softsprite routine for dropzone + international karate?

 

.... oops... back to work... :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's asking a lot to expect homebrewers to be able to surpass some quite awesome efforts from back in the day. Only recently is there any renewed interest in these old systems, and you can't expect amateurs to produce triple A products straight out the door, even if they're "standing on the shoulders of giants" and have a lot more help these days/

Agreed.

 

A demo is not the same as a complete game. I doubt even the demo writers themselves would claim to be able to turn some of their superb efforts into whole games. Some of the effects leave little room for anything else to be added - fully using the available memory and CPU cycles. Not to say anything regarding the amount of time and effort required to develop said games.

Agreed again.

 

It's just that everyone feels obliged to write a space invaders clone to get themselves started  :D

**quitely deletes Space Invaders program I've been working on** :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When i cycle out of demo and back to game mode i'm thinking about converting my C64 puzzle game Reaxion; i've already got a Plus/4 version on the go so doing it on a machine with sprites should be reasonably easy. i'm not sure how i'm going to do most of it yet, but it'll be interesting to see how much i can shove into the Atari version. i'm probably going to have to redesign some of the graphics to make it work, though... =-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TMR

 

> i'd say they're important to the development and indeed survival of a machine,

 

Those are my words ;)

 

>On the C64 for example (since that's the machine i really know from direct experience) the games were always trying to go one step further, backroom coders sat down and tried to wedge as much into the machine as possible.

 

I know that... you know that ....

 

>Games like Fred's Back, Mayhem In Monsterland or Enforcer push the C64 in ways i doubt the designers ever thought people would be able to but it was a cumulative process to get to those titles

 

.... and a cumulative progression never happened on the 8-Bits..

 

 

 

>Hey, are you referring to me...? i'm hardly an ex C64 coder! =-)

 

How many (ex) C64 coders do you see in this forum ? ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A demo is not the same as a complete game. I doubt even the demo writers themselves would claim to be able to turn some of their superb efforts into whole games.

 

As a generalisation, demo coders are normally not much good at writing games; the mindset is very different. i cycle back and forth, i can't really code games when i'm in "demo mode" and vice versa.

 

Still I agree that there's not a lot of point doing what has been done to death before. It's just that everyone feels obliged to write a space invaders clone to get themselves started  :D

 

That's odd, my first C64 game was a horizontal scrolling shoot-em-up by the time it got through it's development cycle... =-)

 

There's nothing wrong with going over old ground as long as you have something new to add to it and that addition doesn't even have to be a technical advancement as long as you polish the results properly. One of the "pending" jobs on my long list of games to work on is a C64 version of Tetris using the Mirrorsoft graphics and music but a brand new engine that plays more like the Gameboy Tetris conversion Paradize did. The chances are i'll never get around to it but if i did it'd rock the house...

 

Generally speaking, everybody and his cat did games on the C64 at one point and there were a lot of unplayable games. But the few that did play well also had the polish that the unplayable games added to the pot. That's sort of what the Atari needed and possibly needs now; instead of discussing theories everyone sits down and tries to actually one-up the previous efforts?

 

i see Sheddy's Space Harrier conversion like that, similarly the ongoing IK+ conversion; both are taking what's already been done and nudging those ideas along a few steps further (whilst, fortunately, being good games in the process).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...