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RGB/YPbPr Intellivision Thoughts


the_crayon_king

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5 hours ago, Reality Studio said:

 

Gotcha, well I went through my stash of scart cables of which I have dozens somehow and I did actually find one with an 8 pin din connector, so I guess I'll give that a try after all. I got your kit,  thank you! One question, normally the din connector itself would have a nut that goes with it such that you drill a hole in the case, slide the din connector through, then screw the nut on the other side to keep it on tightly on the console case. This one in the kit doesn't have such a nut but is that little board after it's soldered on what will actually hold the din connector in place instead? Aside from that I think I understand the rest of the install, will try it this weekend, just wasn't quite sure how the 8 pin din connector gets secured to the console housing.

 

You just glue it in. Super glue, epoxy or even hot glue can work. I put it through the hole then glue whilst twisting so everything gets covered. Try not to get glue on the metal pins. Also make sure the port doesn't twist itself sideways after sitting for a bit. You should probably test everything before gluing.

 

I use a step bit to drill my holes I don't know the specific size these need to be. Let me know if anything else comes up.

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18 hours ago, Reality Studio said:

 

Gotcha, well I went through my stash of scart cables of which I have dozens somehow and I did actually find one with an 8 pin din connector, so I guess I'll give that a try after all. I got your kit,  thank you! One question, normally the din connector itself would have a nut that goes with it such that you drill a hole in the case, slide the din connector through, then screw the nut on the other side to keep it on tightly on the console case. This one in the kit doesn't have such a nut but is that little board after it's soldered on what will actually hold the din connector in place instead? Aside from that I think I understand the rest of the install, will try it this weekend, just wasn't quite sure how the 8 pin din connector gets secured to the console housing.

The 8-pin Din that comes with the kit, is designed to drill a hole into the case shell, but then you need to use epoxy to hold and secure it in. The breakout board that comes with it, is to make it easier to solder wiring too and will not hold it against the case shell securely. 

 

I installed this new revision of the board replacing the older one I did in my intelly 2 last night. It does indeed work fine with the OSSC. Additionally, my capture device is okay with the signal as well provided I use passthrough or 2x mode from the OSSC. Anything above that my TV will display, but the capture device will not see it. Pretty much the same results I get with the other RGB board I've been working with. The picture might be a tad softer through the OSSC and it is a little darker as compared to the YUV output. I'm sure that has to do with the resistors and caps present in my Genesis 2 AV cables I typically use. But if I remove those components from the cable SCART housing, then those cables wouldn't work with my other consoles so it is a compromise I'm okay with. 

 

@the_crayon_king what is the long term plan for these boards? I know you are wanting to start working on other projects so just curious?

 

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@-^CrossBow^- Does your capture card usually work with scaled (beyond 2X) 240 sources ? I had the same issue on my old CRT HDMI TV and my Happauge capture card (Colossus 2). This worked on my datapath capture card. The Datapath can usually be found for under 100., I'm not sure what the specific model is. In practice it has output everything I have put into it; but it needs it's settings tweaked for best visuals.

 

TLDR the two problems I see left:

There may be instances where the TVs need a specific refresh rate. Would need a clock bypass (like the SNES dejitter).

The other possible issue is sync may still need some tweaking. It's kind of hard to make correct sync when it is simply not there. On a CPLD I mean. With a FPGA it would be easy.

 

---------

My long term plan is to get scaled HDMI. I don't care about HDMI as much as getting RGB/YPbPr so that are where my priorities are.

Beyond that I don't plan to stop making the Intellivision boards or anything. I just want to put out the other kits as well. Even if the demand for RGB kits for those other consoles will be super low (maybe 10 a year) I still need them for my own uses so I might as well make them available. It helps that everything is on the same shared board so I can afford to make more than I could otherwise.

 

Short term I am working on the O2 atm. Also I shot a video but I have no idea how to edit the video. I may just open up pre modded consoles and describe what I did and why I did it. Then just upload that as is.

 

Edited by the_crayon_king
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My capture device (AverMedia Live Gamer Portable 2 Plus), will take any input signal that is 720p,1080p, and 4k. 4k acts as a passthrough only and it will not capture at that resolution. 5x scale on my OSSC is set to 1920x1200 output from the OSSC, but even when I set that to 1080p the capture device does not like the signal from the Intellivision through the OSSC. But again, it does work and capture using passthrough or 2x through the OSSC.

 

I upped that capture to my YT channel last night though I didn't publicly mention it or anything. Captured using Gen2 SCART RGB c-sync cables from a 9-pin mini din to the OSSC. Passthrough is first and then 2x is shown at the end.

 

 

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After further testing, What I came up was this. The latest board works well through the OSSC connected to my TV. I also went back and tested the 2xSCART and did not trigger any video drop out with the LTO. I would still like to further test this. The latest board still works well with the Genesis 2 RAD2x cable as well. 

Where I did notice issues is with the RT5x. I tested the new CrayolaRGB, the v1 (in my SSVA), and the FredK RGB in my INTV2) all seem to display shaky video, but some at different settings on the RT5x. I did update my RT5x to the latest 1.2 fw, so I need to see if I can downgrade to see if the latest FW introduced any of this. 

Here is a short video of what I am referring to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATwWF0edZGE

 

Here is a little table from my testing the various RGB boards and scalers. I still need to further test the 5x since I am unsure if the fw update caused any of this

 

image.thumb.png.5418ec15a7744caebf43d560de087147.png

Edited by mattyv316
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7 minutes ago, Reality Studio said:

Thanks for the info guys about mounting the din connector! One more q, where do you pull audio from? The small board that attaches to the din connector has audio left and right which looks like doesn't come from the main board, was curious if there was a preferred place to grab that.

There is a pic on this RetroRGB Intellivision page that shows where to pull the audio from the RF module pin. Just run it to both left and right.

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40 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

There is a pic on this RetroRGB Intellivision page that shows where to pull the audio from the RF module pin. Just run it to both left and right.

 

Cool thanks, I guess that means the rf module has to stay, was gonna remove it and use that space to mount the board. Guess I'll try mounting the board under the main intv board.

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@Reality Studio I uploaded a picture of the audio spot on the model 1. You would probably want to do something different on the model 2 since it is super noisy.

I have a bypass for the model 2 discussed somewhere in this thread.

 

@mattyv316 Nice chart. What does "mostly works" mean exactly? I am just curious since I have the 2X SCART as well.

It is weird that of the RT products some work and others don't. It worked on my OSSC with no adjustment; you would expect the 5X to be as good as or better in that regard.

 

@-^CrossBow^- 2X looks so much worse than 5X on the OSSC. Other than being dark it looks like I would expect in 2X mode. I am not sure why the capture card wouldn't work on a standard resolution. If anyone has an inkling I would love to hear it.

 

I was thinking refresh rate. The OSSC says Intellivision's (at least mine) is 59.82. I figured the line doublers would repeat or subtract frames to hit whatever the HDMI standard is. So I am not sure if that is or isn't relevant. If the problem is sync needs formatted differently I could tweak it. There is a limit to how much can be done on a CPLD and we are around it. If I had something here that didn't work I could finagle something until it worked (that's how I got to OSSC functional).

20210119_124346.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Reality Studio said:

 

Cool thanks, I guess that means the rf module has to stay, was gonna remove it and use that space to mount the board. Guess I'll try mounting the board under the main intv board.

You can remove the RF module. It has no effect on the sound or video (as far as this kit is concerned). Composite mods designed by others will not work if you remove RF tho.

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@the_crayon_king Sorry, the mostly works was just a reminder for me to test the LTO more. At first I didn't see drop outs on your previous revisions, but once I tested more, I started to see them. Right now, your latest revision seems to eliminate the drop outs on the 2xScart, but I want to test more. I cut testing the 2xSCART short so I can test the 5x more.

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On the 5x front, I already got a reply from Mike Chi. He was awesome at replying very quickly. He is unable to provide the original fw version to downgrade to, but did tell me that the 5x is looking for composite sync. It looks like I would need to also install a composite mod board and wire that to the composite pin out on the Genesis 2 connector.

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1 hour ago, mattyv316 said:

On the 5x front, I already got a reply from Mike Chi. He was awesome at replying very quickly. He is unable to provide the original fw version to downgrade to, but did tell me that the 5x is looking for composite sync. It looks like I would need to also install a composite mod board and wire that to the composite pin out on the Genesis 2 connector.

I only ever managed to get drops on the 2X with Thunder Castle (when the wizard shows up and then stage 2 onward). Which doesn't happen anymore as far as I could tell.

 

It is looking for 'sync on composite video' or C-sync (composite sync[combination of horizontal and vertical sync)?

I would think he meant C-sync not the other one. The composite video coming out of the composite mod kit would be super corrupted.

 

I took a picture from the video you made. To me it doesn't look like it is losing sync so much as it is starting the new frame at the bottom of the video. That little quarter of an inch or so should be at the top of your video. The video appears to alternate where it puts the start of this line; which is causing the up and down jitter.

What is causing this or what the soultion is I don't currently know but I am open to ideas. I am thinking that the 5X is over correcting something.

Capture.PNG

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45 minutes ago, Mr. Bildo said:

I know there was some discussion, but I couldn't glean an actual answer. Does this new board work with HDRV cables?

This board already puts out YPbPr. So if you wanted to use the HD-Retrovision cable you would make the board output RGB and then convert that to YPbPr.

I am not sure why you would want to do that over just using the native YPbPr and a RCA cable. 

 

The kit also puts out C-sync not sync on composite video. That means the HDR probably won't work without some sort of modification of the sync signal.

I am making an addon board that will sandwich on the other board and put out RGBs, S-video, and Composite. (this board is what I am currently testing). 

You could probably use that to do what you are thinking.

Although, I would advise against it since you are doing an extra unnecessary conversion of analog RGB to YPbPr, when the kit can already do this conversion more precisely at the digital bits.

 

Someone with the RGB/YPbPr board and a HDR cable ought to try it (if they haven't already) and report back.

 

 

Edited by the_crayon_king
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1 hour ago, the_crayon_king said:

I am not sure why you would want to do that over just using the native YPbPr and a RCA cable.

It's how I have all my modded systems setup. I use a SNES style multiout connector so I can have composite, s-video and RGB output. I often switch between CRT and various flat panels and it makes for a flexible setup. 

 

1 hour ago, the_crayon_king said:

Although, I would advise against it since you are doing an extra unnecessary conversion of analog RGB to YPbPr, when the kit can already do this conversion more precisely at the digital bits.

I get that.

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If it were me I would try to add a resistor to Csync and make it match what would be used for sync on composite video (its p-p). I am not sure if this would work since I don't know if the HDR is using other parts of the composite video signal. If you added somewhere around a 550 ohm resistor to the S (sync) output that might be enough to make it work? That would make sync about 300mv p-p which I would think is what the HDR is looking for but I have no idea.  <<This would be a kind of do at your own risk kind of thing. 

 

Otherwise you would have to involve actual composite video (which is a lot of effort). I am still testing the circuit but I should have enough parts laying around to make a few boards that can put out all of the things. 

You may get away with the other composite mods out there; but those mods would be missing some sync pulses which may be bad for your end device. 

---------------------------------

 

Intellivision over composite (through RGB kit + mixing) VS RF for comparison. Some of the aberrations like those horizontal lines are just from trying to take a pic of a CRT. 

CaD2Bqq.jpglJgLhbP.jpg

BHFZKOB.jpg

 

This shows the signal is at roughly 1v P-P when terminated. 

rSVRCe6.png

------------------------

Anyway, TLDR I can make some composite/S-video boards. Or if you are handy with a soldering iron you could make your own. I will upload the board to OSHpark once I am done testing. 

Edited by the_crayon_king
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41 minutes ago, Mr. Bildo said:

Great. That works for me. Thanks.

This might work for you: https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/3cOVvV5Q

I wrote in what goes where. I don't plan to do more edits to it before trying it myself. 

 

For the Intellivision you would jumper both pads named CLKA. There is a reason for the CLKB but that is for other consoles.

Refer to the description for minor info. Or just ask me if you have any questions. I have the rough version of this circuit built out over here and it works. Still don't know about the HDR tho. 

Edited by the_crayon_king
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On 5/29/2021 at 2:13 PM, mattyv316 said:

After further testing, What I came up was this. The latest board works well through the OSSC connected to my TV. I also went back and tested the 2xSCART and did not trigger any video drop out with the LTO. I would still like to further test this. The latest board still works well with the Genesis 2 RAD2x cable as well. 

Where I did notice issues is with the RT5x. I tested the new CrayolaRGB, the v1 (in my SSVA), and the FredK RGB in my INTV2) all seem to display shaky video, but some at different settings on the RT5x. I did update my RT5x to the latest 1.2 fw, so I need to see if I can downgrade to see if the latest FW introduced any of this. 

Here is a short video of what I am referring to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATwWF0edZGE

 

Here is a little table from my testing the various RGB boards and scalers. I still need to further test the 5x since I am unsure if the fw update caused any of this

 

Did you ever solve this problem?  I have a RT5X and I'm considering getting an RGB board, but now I'm worried that it isn't going to work right.  Although from your video it seems stable at 720p.

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42 minutes ago, Tempest said:

 

Did you ever solve this problem?  I have a RT5X and I'm considering getting an RGB board, but now I'm worried that it isn't going to work right.  Although from your video it seems stable at 720p.

There are not enough points of reference to say conclusively the Retrotink 5X doesn't work (or will never work). Or even where/what the issue is.

If the issue is on my end then it is likely the sync signal (STILL?!) which doesn't make much sense,. seeing as how even the old broken sync worked on the RT2X. 

The other issue could be the console timing (clock drift?). I still think the 5X is over correcting something.

 

I don't want to send a bunch out there that get refunded because of 5X incompatibility. I would prefer people buy these that have a known compatible device (if they have a 5X in addition that is great). 

That said if you wanted to by one and try it., I would refund if it didn't work out. I think you would be out the 2$ shipping but that's it. 

I have done deals like that before on a case by case basis. All I would ask is you break the board and send a pic and I would refund. May want to troubleshoot a bit first. 

 

Edit

Sync output from the CPLD is technically faster than it should be (by whatever the delay of the DAC is). So trying SOG (sync on green) or YPbPr might reveal something. Since in both those cases those would be timed with the RGB outputs. I dunno if the 5X supports SOG. I would expect a "fast" sync to just shift the picture left or right by a pixel or so, I don't know if that is a possible issue here.

 

I do see in the notes of the 5X that "Not all TVs will be compatible with all modes, particularly 1440p".

Edited by the_crayon_king
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I thought I had mentioned this before but even with composite kit installed, the HDR cables did not work when running composite video to the cvid pin on my 9-pin mini din. Just resulted in a black screen. Now I had a similar issue when I did a 32x not that long ago. When you add in s-video on a 32x you have to kill the internal composite video output as they share their luma signal and it causes nastiness on the s-video output. Anyway, to get HDRcables working again, I actually used a resistor and a cap off the Genesis composite video signal into the 32x and routed that to the cvid pin. That allows the HDR cables to work. But this was only possible because I had the Genesis composite signal running into the 32x to begin with to borrow the sync signals from. In this case, the sync from the composite kits will be too messed up to get anything useful and has to be cleaned up and redone first.

 

Isn't that the same thing you concluded as well @the_crayon_king?

 

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1 hour ago, Tempest said:

 

Did you ever solve this problem?  I have a RT5X and I'm considering getting an RGB board, but now I'm worried that it isn't going to work right.  Although from your video it seems stable at 720p.

I have a composite mod board on order and will add that in to wire it up to the composite sync of the genesis 2 port. I am really just interested to see what happens. If it doesn't work, I am still very happy with the OSSC output and the flexibility to be able to use the Rad2x.

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24 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I thought I had mentioned this before but even with composite kit installed, the HDR cables did not work when running composite video to the cvid pin on my 9-pin mini din. Just resulted in a black screen. Now I had a similar issue when I did a 32x not that long ago. When you add in s-video on a 32x you have to kill the internal composite video output as they share their luma signal and it causes nastiness on the s-video output. Anyway, to get HDRcables working again, I actually used a resistor and a cap off the Genesis composite video signal into the 32x and routed that to the cvid pin. That allows the HDR cables to work. But this was only possible because I had the Genesis composite signal running into the 32x to begin with to borrow the sync signals from. In this case, the sync from the composite kits will be too messed up to get anything useful and has to be cleaned up and redone first.

 

Isn't that the same thing you concluded as well @the_crayon_king?

 

Yea, I remember that conversation somewhat. I remember saying something like "I am sure someone will want to try it" in reference to the HDR. Now here we are.

What I was figuring in the above post is that the sync inside of "Composite" from those kits you see online (for the Intellivision) would be too corrupted. 

The add on board would be generated from the corrected sync then make actual composite video from mixing RGB so it should in theory be better.

If nothing else it will have the "corrected sync" which should be the important part for the HDR.

 

I would figure if you sent C-sync through a 220uf capacitor and a 550ish ohm resistor (in the case of this kit) that it would appear like sync on composite video (on a black screen) minus the clock pulses and blanking. So I really don't get why that wouldn't work. We may have talked about that before. I cannot remember if anyone else has ever tried to send C-sync (or luma for that matter) instead of composite video. I really don't want to buy another device right now. The safer option should be the addon board. The cleaner/cheaper option would be the 220uf + 550ohm resistor but that may not work.

 

On another note I would like to see a comparison between the composite mixed from the RGB kit and the composite mixed from the conventional composite kits.

 

@mattyv316 @Tempest at some point I will get a 5X and brute force sync until hopefully it works. I don't think the sync strike will hurt anything but only one way to know for sure and I don't have one.

The composite sync (sync on composite video) you would be sending the 5X would be really corrupted. So if somehow that works and the C-sync out from the board doesn't that will be wild. 

 

Did you ever try YPbPr? That may have a different result.  

Edited by the_crayon_king
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