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RGB/YPbPr Intellivision Thoughts

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22 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

If there was enough interest I could order a batch but it seems like it is one of those things that not a lot of people would need/want. 

I've got one client that wants this setup, but I'm not setup for SMD assembly either and I'm not sure the cost to have a small batch prepopulated is cost effective for me either at this time.

 

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8 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I've got one client that wants this setup, but I'm not setup for SMD assembly either and I'm not sure the cost to have a small batch prepopulated is cost effective for me either at this time.

 

I am in the same boat. I could make many things but if the demand isn't there then it only puts me in the hole to make them. 

I will have something eventually. Whether is is an addon board or an inferior board that puts out RGB, S-Video, and Composite.

 

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Posted (edited)

@the_crayon_king I'm just finding out about this project.  Are you selling any kits of you RGB Intellivision mod?  I'd be interested in getting one to try out on one of my systems.

 

Edited by Rick Reynolds

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After mild testing I feel confident enough to order some of the expansion boards.

I will sell those with the components needed for S-Video and Composite for 10-15 as an add-on item. 

 

Pb and Pr were disabled but can be reenabled by adding the two missing op amps and capacitors. This was to keep the price low. 

 

I can sell these populated boards around cost (2 + fees/shipping) if you want to add the missing components yourself (BH7236AF, THS7374).

 

These add-on boards (if you can't tell by the name) are to be used in tandem with the existing V5 board and will add Composite video, and S-Video; In addition to buffering RGB (so that SEGA workaround can be done on here). 

 

From testing S-Video looks nearly as good as YPbPr. Composite looks like crap but still looks worlds better than my RF. 

The real test would be a comparison between the existing composite mods. 

 

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The boards are in. They are not too hard to assemble.

The bad news is I only have 1 MD-40SV (S-Video jack) and it will probably be over a month before the Chinese ones get here. 

So I will have to order from Digikey; which means the connectors are like 2-3$ a pop. 

AFAIK you can use: MD-40SV, MD-40CC, MD-40SN.

 

New expansion board verses the old. 

Take note of the pins/pads XC, CJ. You want to set CJ for the Intellivision. This just either passes through the clock going to the RGB kit or uses an external one (XC being "external clock"). Also look at the 4 other jumpers PAL, PAL, LPF, NTSC. PAL actually means PAL region on the expansion board., where PAL on the RGB board means "Color Pallet"(this will be resolved in the future). For most cases just set NTSC., I didn't notice any difference over composite when setting LPF. May do something with RGB. 

e2gruKp.jpg

 

Expansion board with headers

SSOxzeQ.jpg

RGB floating on top of expansion board (CJ and XC can still be accessed like this 

fLpTAi0.jpg

 

Video still looks the same as last time. Let me know if you have any questions. 

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To update all, @the_crayon_king sent me a v5 board with his latest code changes for me to test on the RT 5x. I was able to install it today and my testing produced great results. To start off, my 5x still had fw 1.29. I tested games via LTO and typical carts. There was no shaking video on the 5x at any time. I was even cycling through all the different output resolutions and never saw any video hiccups. After that, I decided to update the 5x fw to the latest 1.55 and everything continued to perform as expected.

From what I have seen, this is the best RGB mod going for the INTV right now. With the latest code, it works with XRGB, OSSC, RT 2x-Scart, Rad2x, and now the RT 5x Pro. Thank you for all your hard work Crayola. your persistence paid off.

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20 hours ago, mattyv316 said:

From what I have seen, this is the best RGB mod going for the INTV right now. With the latest code, it works with XRGB, OSSC, RT 2x-Scart, Rad2x, and now the RT 5x Pro. Thank you for all your hard work Crayola. your persistence paid off.

Didn't realize it was a competition?

 

 

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27 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Didn't realize it was a competition?

 

 

It's not.

I didn't imply, or intend to imply, it was competition. If it sounded like that, I apologize. I'm just excited to see the INTV finally working on all these devices.

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20 hours ago, mattyv316 said:

To update all, @the_crayon_king sent me a v5 board with his latest code changes for me to test on the RT 5x. I was able to install it today and my testing produced great results. To start off, my 5x still had fw 1.29. I tested games via LTO and typical carts. There was no shaking video on the 5x at any time. I was even cycling through all the different output resolutions and never saw any video hiccups. After that, I decided to update the 5x fw to the latest 1.55 and everything continued to perform as expected.

 

 

I got the original board but never installed it once I read it didn't work with the RetroTink 5x, is it possible to buy this newer v5 version that works with it? The ebay link posted just above is the same one I had bought previously and mentions that it doesn't work with the 5x as well. Or is the v5 listing coming soon and still in testing?

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21 hours ago, mattyv316 said:

To update all, @the_crayon_king sent me a v5 board with his latest code changes for me to test on the RT 5x. I was able to install it today and my testing produced great results. To start off, my 5x still had fw 1.29. I tested games via LTO and typical carts. There was no shaking video on the 5x at any time. I was even cycling through all the different output resolutions and never saw any video hiccups. After that, I decided to update the 5x fw to the latest 1.55 and everything continued to perform as expected.

From what I have seen, this is the best RGB mod going for the INTV right now. With the latest code, it works with XRGB, OSSC, RT 2x-Scart, Rad2x, and now the RT 5x Pro. Thank you for all your hard work Crayola. your persistence paid off.

Couldn't have done it without you guys and couldn't confirm the 5X without your testing Matty.

 

@-^CrossBow^- I think Matty is just excited (as am I) that this sync problem is finally done. I have both been helped by or have helped with (I hope anyway) various other Intellivision projects. So this whole thing has been pretty collaborative. Sync has been an incredibly boring issue to resolve so regardless of anything else I am just glad it is done. 

 

@Reality Studio The change to firmware happened January 23rd. So if you bought after that date then you should be on the most current firmware. Otherwise, any of the V5 boards I can reflash if they are mailed to me (just pay the return shipping).

 

I am still waiting on parts for the expansion boards but from testing it S-Video looked decent. I still do not like composite., but it is still much better than my RF output.

On the expansion boards I disabled YPbPr since that was about half the costs of the board. The components that are missing are 2X220uf (C1411/3528[metric] and 2X TPH2503-TR (op-amps). So that is all that is needed if you wanna go for "everything" out. I will test the YPbPr output through the expansion board eventually. 

I haven't seen about fitting this in a model 2 yet which may be an issue.

 

I may make a more general purpose DIY expansion board in the future (geared more towards other random consoles). The idea being an RGB bypass that is split., then the BH7236AF for Y/C and Composite, then the two op amps for YPbPr. I have been using something like that for years in all my personal consoles. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, the_crayon_king said:

 The change to firmware happened January 23rd. So if you bought after that date then you should be on the most current firmware. Otherwise, any of the V5 boards I can reflash if they are mailed to me (just pay the return shipping).

 

 

Ahh I bought mine May 23 so looks like I'm good to go, thank you! Time to get it installed.

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Update:

I meant to say that the only thing left now is PAL sync correction. So if you are in a PAL region it would be best to wait.

The ebay page will be updated when this happens and the boards this will be used on will look like this:

dQLYbZh.png

Changes:

"PAL (Pallet Select) has been renamed "COLSEL" to avoid confusion with PAL regions. 

"EXT" will be jumped for setting PAL. (I didn't name it PAL because that jumper has different functions on different consoles.

Added a resistor to "SJ1"; this is so if you set the jumper and hook up a wire to "F" (you shouldn't be doing this); but if you did it would no longer break things.  

Besides possibly the pallet(s) I do not anticipate any other changes. This should almost certainly be the final changes to these boards

 

There was no other significant change; the board is still pin/code compatible with the current V5 so I didn't change the revision number. 

The PAL sync correction should only take me an evening but the console wont be here until sometime before AUG 15th. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other news; the S-Video jacks I needed for the expansion boards will be here in a few weeks. They had the tracking jacked up but I think it's good now. 

I will make a standalone option and list it as an addon item.

 

If anyone knows of header pins (2.54mm, male-male) that are made for sandwiching two 1.6mm boards together I would be love to know. Otherwise, you would have to cut around 20 header pins with flush cutters and that is a pain. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After the PAL correction I want to mark this project down as "finalized" then move on to other things, so if anyone can think of more preferable pallet(s) this would be the time to let me know.

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Posted (edited)

Nothing wrong with a little friendly competition. :)  If I was one who was creating that mod, I'd certainly strive to make it the best available, which I think the crayon king has accomplished, IMHO. Not to knock Yannick's work or anything either.. both gentlemen have done a fine job. I just think it's down to personal preference at this point, though I prefer the TCK's mod, who seems to win out on compatibility/features at this point, plus the possibility of expansion(s). Anyways, it's a blessing to have options either way and on both sides of the pond to boot! :cool: Cheers, fellas! Hard work certainly pays off. :thumbsup:

 

BTW, I'm finally installing the YUV side of crayola's mod as we speak, so I'm looking forward to testing that vs Scart/RGB.

Speaking of testing, my prefered scaler, the Retrotink 2x Scart stopped outputting sound earlier today (which I later determined to be a faulty HDMI cable, so it's back up and running with a different cable) and so I fiddled around with the OSSC some more, which I actually got to look better than the Retrotink 2x Scart. Using a generic 4:3 profile instead of one of my saved profiles from before on the OSSC did the trick.. it now looks a lot better than the Retrotink. Whodathunk? :D

Edited by SiLic0ne t0aD

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There’s no competition here, just 2 projects that developed at the same time. The philosophy behind them are quite different, mine being to have something simple and using only of the shelf components without any programmed CPLDs or equivalent. This has its drawbacks with less flexibility and functionality.

 

We’ve also shared information do that  our product can be improved, without the_crayon_king inputs and —crosbow— push I’d certainly never had it working with ossc wich is not do common here in France as we have SCART inputs on all televisions that are more than one or two years old (it was mandatory till then).

 

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Something interesting I noticed is that through the OSSC, the odd pattern along the top of the screen is nearly non-existent with Yannicks board. It is really on through the Tink2x that I see this but as it doesn't effect any game play field space area it doesn't bother me in the slightest. But again, interesting that it isn't present through the OSSC visually. In that regard, Yannick's current board is working on my setup in all modes of the OSSC minus 3x but that is because it produces an output resolution that my TV doesn't like. But passthrough,2x, 4x and 5x are all good. 

 

I have been told that on the Tink5x at least with the latest firmware that some of the resolutions will cause the same jittering from Yannick's as Crayon's earlier programmed boards were doing. But in most of the modes that a person is actually likely to use it is fine and it also seems to be TV specific as some will do this and some won't.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@SiLic0ne t0aD OSSC in 5X mode is the best way to play IMO(maybe the retrotink 5X is as good/better). The only other "best" visuals would be through a CRT. 

 

@YannAros I guess people don't realize we have been private messaging back and forth with information. I don't know if people understand what a big deal a non-programable kit is. It means years from now as long as the design is still on easyeda, OSHpark, etc.; that someone can order and install without any intervention of the creator. There are a lot of programmable mod projects (not specifically Intellivision) that come and go because they don't have the kind of longevity and reproducibility of a solution like yours

 

@-^CrossBow^- I don't even know what situations (besides my CRT) that his sync has issues (beyond the ones you listed). It may not be worth the effort to fix at all.

I know I have said it before; that a monostable (on hsync) and then NORing H and V sync separately should work. 

Edited by the_crayon_king
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I hope I didn't offend anybody or anything like that.. Haven't tried Yannick's, but I'd like to and I'm sure it's right up there with TCK's. Again, it's great that there's multiple options & RGB mods available from different creators. You can never have too many, imho. It's a good time to be a Inty fan! Whether you're in Europe or North America, everyone's covered. Open source is definitely a good thing too! :) Big up's to both of you guys.

 

Finally got the YPbPr portion of the Baked Potato v5 mod hooked up, but really couldn't tell a difference compared to Scart... Honestly, they looked the same on my setup. 🤷‍♂️ Oh well. It's still cool having more than 1 output option available, if I need it. That said, I think I'll just stick with Scart. It's more convenient for my setup and is more of an all in one solution vs a bunch of Component/audio cables dangling there. Plus, I'm already setup for Scart with some of my other consoles.

 

I forgot to mention, I've been running the OSSC in 5x mode. I definitely agree that is the way to go. So far, the Generic 4:3 profile still seems to be the clear winner, looking much better than any other profiles used thus far. I don't think I'll bother trying to tweak it much though.. Honestly, it looks perfect as-is. Before switching profiles, I was getting a lot of noise here & there, plus a little bit of color bleed on Red mainly, so that's why I favored the Retrotink at the time, but all of that is now gone. Weird. On the Retrotink 2x-Scart, I noticed some slight color bleed on Reds too, but nothing extreme.. You really had to look for it. Otherwise, I didn't experience any artifacts or noise at all. Now that I have my OSSC dialed in, I think I'll use it with my Intellivision(s) from here on out and only use the 2x-Scart for some of my other RGB modded consoles (N64, etc). BTW, the main TV I've been using for testing is a 43" D series Vizio, model D43F-E1. I do have another smaller HDTV and some CRT's packed away, so maybe I'll try some of those in the future. For the time being, I'm satisfied with this current setup. 👍

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SiLic0ne t0aD said:

I hope I didn't offend anybody or anything like that.. Haven't tried Yannick's, but I'd like to and I'm sure it's right up there with TCK's. Again, it's great that there's multiple options & RGB mods available from different creators. You can never have too many, imho. It's a good time to be a Inty fan! Whether you're in Europe or North America, everyone's covered. Open source is definitely a good thing too! :) Big up's to both of you guys.

 

Finally got the YPbPr portion of the Baked Potato v5 mod hooked up, but really couldn't tell a difference compared to Scart... Honestly, they looked the same on my setup. 🤷‍♂️ Oh well. It's still cool having more than 1 output option available, if I need it. That said, I think I'll just stick with Scart. It's more convenient for my setup and is more of an all in one solution vs a bunch of Component/audio cables dangling there. Plus, I'm already setup for Scart with some of my other consoles.

 

I forgot to mention, I've been running the OSSC in 5x mode. I definitely agree that is the way to go. So far, the Generic 4:3 profile still seems to be the clear winner, looking much better than any other profiles used thus far. I don't think I'll bother trying to tweak it much though.. Honestly, it looks perfect as-is. Before switching profiles, I was getting a lot of noise here & there, plus a little bit of color bleed on Red mainly, so that's why I favored the Retrotink at the time, but all of that is now gone. Weird. On the Retrotink 2x-Scart, I noticed some slight color bleed on Reds too, but nothing extreme.. You really had to look for it. Otherwise, I didn't experience any artifacts or noise at all. Now that I have my OSSC dialed in, I think I'll use it with my Intellivision(s) from here on out and only use the 2x-Scart for some of my other RGB modded consoles (N64, etc). BTW, the main TV I've been using for testing is a 43" D series Vizio, model D43F-E1. I do have another smaller HDTV and some CRT's packed away, so maybe I'll try some of those in the future. For the time being, I'm satisfied with this current setup. 👍

If your scaler is the same (the OSSC for instance) then yea I would expect YPbPr to look like RGB; Since YPbPr is derived from RGB (using math ugh). Technically this is putting out YCbCr converted to analog [the math is slightly different]. Anyway, besides possible slight changes in brightness (due to rounding) I would expect RGB and YPbPr/YCbCr to be more or less identical to RGB. The ADV7125 (the video DAC) doesn't "know" that you are sending it YPbPr or RGB it is just converting the binary 0000-0000 - 1111-1111 to 0mv-700mv.

The datasheet for the ADV doesn't even specify anything about YPbPr or YCbCr; what we are doing works because the ADV has an option for sync on green., which is why Green becomes Y'. That is just gee wiz useless info.

 

I took a look at the Red traces and there isn't a possible short that could cause color bleed. To me that would mean a few things. Either the kit is actually receiving the bleeding red, or the OSSC is interpreting that it should be Red, or the TV is interpreting that it should be Red. I have noticed in situations where the TV's scaler has to do anything it does a poor job of it. For example the Retrotink 2X (480) gets upscaled by TVs. The more a TV does the scaling itself the worse the video looks., which means more color bleed.

I think the best way to describe what I am talking about is imagine say a red line in the middle of a green background. With the 2X you will get a color (not necessarily red) to either side of the red line that is neither the red of the red line nor the green of the green background. To fix you should make sure your TV isn't doing any additional stuff to the signal. On my TV this is called "Direct" mode. I turn off all the other post processing I can as well. That may not help at all but it is something you can try. To be clear the color bleed when using the RT 2X has nothing to do with the 2X and everything to do with the TV's internal scaler. 

 

I don't know enough about OSSC settings to recommend tweaks. I know you can really dial in stuff to get the "best" video. For my uses the normal modes of the OSSC is certainly good enough. If you discover like a perfect combination of settings then you should post it. 

 

Back to the kit actually receiving the colors early/late; that would have to do with the PPU's slew rate. If it takes too long to transition to/from a color you could get bleeding.

I am not sure it could be the kit's slew rate. I did set the kit's slew rate to slow (this mitigates ground bounce), but the slow slew rate of the kit is probably miles faster than the slew rate of the PPU. Because the inputs are all clocked, these slow transitions would have to be greater than a clock pulse to cause issues. I haven't done the math to see if this is even a possible issue.

 

On noise --->

Random Static Noise:

Your house's grounding (I have this issue and I have no idea how to permanently fix it) [although this was mostly an issue on the XRGB fixed with A/D settings]. 

Your connection to ground to your RGB/YPbPr breakout (ground should going to the kit and then ground for your RCAs/RGB/YPBPR should be taken from the kit) if for some reason you do not do this it will increase noise incredibly.

Lastly noise from a poorly shielded cable (any of your analog lines can induce noise onto each other if not fully shielded). 

The longer your cable or the more daisy chained the lines are the more noise can be induced into a signal. 

 

Non-Random Noise (as in straight lines or a repeating pattern of some sort). 

Clock bleeding into your kit can cause jailbars (which is why I say to run the clock non-parallel to your inputs); it is even more important to keep clock away from your outputs (since the inputs are digital they are not really going to be effected much by clock anyway; the analog outputs are a different matter). 

Grounding again; if you take ground not from the kit but from someplace else you can see the ground bounce on the TV. This appears much like jailbars since the kit is in time with the clock. I think this gets worse because of the relative difference of potential of the two grounds. 

 

In the past I had success changing the A/D setting of the XRGB to remove random static noise. After all the various changes to the boards I have made I no longer see this on things like the OSSC (I expect that it is still there just harder to see). 

 

I may be wrong about any part of that. I am not an EE or anything so let me know if any of you have differing ideas on noise.

Edited by the_crayon_king

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15 hours ago, SiLic0ne t0aD said:

I hope I didn't offend anybody or anything like that..

I didn’t feel offended at all.

There are only few of my cards outside of France and even fewer outside of Europe.

The initial goal was to propose a solution for French SECAM units that had a reputation of not being modabble.

I found 2 totally different SECAM versions and the mod I did for the second one works also on PAL and NTSC versions.

 

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48 minutes ago, YannAros said:

I didn’t feel offended at all.

There are only few of my cards outside of France and even fewer outside of Europe.

The initial goal was to propose a solution for French SECAM units that had a reputation of not being modabble.

I found 2 totally different SECAM versions and the mod I did for the second one works also on PAL and NTSC versions.

 

Has Console5 reached out to you at all yet? While I still have a few of the current 1.2 boards on hand with the hardwired fixes on them, it would be nice to get the official v2 out there with the new fixes already in place and looking better. Although I might play with the resistor values a bit more on that light green. But still looks pretty close to emulation colors at this point.

 

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Yes we are discussing. It’s not yet fully settled and I have too much things on going at the moment.

It should be better in September / October time frame.

 

Best regards,

Yannick

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Hi Everyone! I just picked up a Tandyvision and am interested in modding it for YUV out. I use a GCompSW and a RetroTink 2X Pro so I can stream old games, and also play them on my flat screen.

 

I took The suggestion of -^CrossBow^-  and  installed the Crayola King mod I got from ebay. I'm going to ASSUME that is the same as the Crayon King commenting on this thread...but maybe not. Anyway. I'm wondering if any of you have installed this mod and if so, perhaps I can get some trouble shooting. 

 

First, the 5 pin ribbon cable that connects the mother board to the power board is in rough shape, anyone know if a source for these?

 

  motherboard.thumb.jpg.fdd8a799df7e7b1a3b6772a5a34c08ea.jpg

 

I was able to install the device, here are some pictures of the soldering:

IMG_1094.thumb.jpg.a1e4841dabffd04dc22caa01985e32f8.jpg

 

IMG_1095.thumb.jpg.fb0d17bfc7302975139906cd8144e87d.jpg

 

I removed the RF board and installed an audio out from the via near by the old RF modulator using a 10uf Cap, sound seems ok.

 

Video seems to be off a bit tho: 

 

IMG_1096.thumb.jpg.ddcb1b3154a5fd8402c8092def042eb2.jpg

 

Reds seem a bit magenta. It looks very clear with no noise like it had...but the colors just seem to be a bit wrong.

 

So I have some questions about the board itself. For reference here is the board from Crayon King's ebay listing: 

 

s-l1600.png

 

I did not run any 5V or Sync out to my TRRS jack...I dont think it needs that...but maybe it does...if so I'm not sure where to hook it up to the TRRS port.

 

Also, I jumped the YPBPR to itslef...which I think is how you tell it you want to run component...but maybe not. Other than that I just wired it up exactly like the diagram.

 

Now that I have it all together it does not turn on reliable...I think this might be due to that bad 5 pin connector ribbon...sometimes it shows up as a solid magenta screen. Sometimes white. sometimes black. and sometimes it shows the game. 

 

I did replace the caps but not the voltge regulators. I'm actually not sure which voltage regulator is which, I know there is a 5v and a 12v. Any ideas which one is which?

 

IMG_0974.thumb.jpg.b594c68419ae45d4c6d9261d53815c50.jpg

 

I feel like i'm pretty close on this but it's not quite perfect yet. Anyone else with experience have any trouble shoooting tips I can try?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

motherboard.jpg

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One other thing I noticed while i was testing this was that this thing was getting EXTREMELY hot. maybe not burning me, but if i touched it i was like "woah" that is hotter than i'd expect. 

 

516148380_ScreenShot2021-07-31at4_14_15PM.thumb.png.bec74d710923dcb495b00f31d6a99478.png

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