RGB/YPbPr Intellivision Thoughts

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 minute ago, the_crayon_king said:

Yea just using it on a toggle would be easier. If I could produce a 8 pin to YPbPr cable that would be ideal. Just break out 8 pin to RCAs I mean.

That is what I did on my Intelly 2. But again, I have clients that would prefer I minimize the amount of holes I might have to drill into their case. That is why on my personal install and at least one other I've done, I used a 4 conductor TRRS jack with a small breakout cable with the RCAs on it. But if you have just the one 9-pin, and it can be made to work with HDR cables, then you can have RGB, Component via HDR cables, and use standard Genesis 2 AV cables to get composite if that was needed for some reason. Again, versatility. My own stuff? I tend to put a ton of holes into the back of the shell so I can just connect up standard cables to everything and be good to go. But again, it is good to have options available. 

[the_crayon_king]

Things came in. I will update as soon as I get everything tested. Fingers crossed.

 

RGB Board

 

Board Used to Flash (TOP)

 

Board Used to Flash (BACK)

 

That flash board or whatever you want to call it is going to save me an incredible amount of time. I also won't have to solder each and every one of these to test anymore.

 

My computer caught a virus and it set me back a little bit. I should know something in a few hours about these boards functionality. Mostly, just need to test everything like crazy. I will install on my personal console then do a burn in test throughout the night.

Edited May 22, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[the_crayon_king]

 

Those are the two pallets through the OSSC (going to the datapath). I don't have any opinion on which one I think looks more accurate. Only that Imbezerk's (bottom) looks more pleasant to the eye.

The datapath needs very specific settings to get "perfect" video. So attribute any visual noise to the datapath settings. Through the OSSC directly (in 5x mode) it looks more or less like an emulator.

 

I have another capture card that I will try later to see if it looks any different. Keep in mind I have to redo all my drivers and settings from the aforementioned virus.

[mattyv316]

Awesome news and looks great. I can swap out one of my boards when you are ready to sell. I can run it through OSSC, Rad2x, RT 5x pro, and RT 2x scart. Just lmk when you put them up on the eBays.

And thanks again for giving the intelli some much needed love!

[the_crayon_king]

14 hours ago, mattyv316 said:

Awesome news and looks great. I can swap out one of my boards when you are ready to sell. I can run it through OSSC, Rad2x, RT 5x pro, and RT 2x scart. Just lmk when you put them up on the eBays.

And thanks again for giving the intelli some much needed love!

They are live again:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284134846315

 

I have only put the bare bones information up atm. I will have more information up later. I will even make a video this time.

So if you are swapping an old one out you should be good to go. If you are doing this from scratch I wouldn't recommend getting these unless you know what you are doing.

[Reality Studio]

27 minutes ago, the_crayon_king said:

They are live again:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284134846315

 

I have only put the bare bones information up atm. I will have more information up later. I will even make a video this time.

So if you are swapping an old one out you should be good to go. If you are doing this from scratch I wouldn't recommend getting these unless you know what you are doing.

Thanks for the heads up, I definitely fall into the "don't know what I'm doing" category lol so I'll wait for the next round.

[Reality Studio]

On 5/22/2021 at 7:42 PM, Reality Studio said:

Thanks for the heads up, I definitely fall into the "don't know what I'm doing" category lol so I'll wait for the next round.

Screw it, bought one anyway, I'll figure it out once you get your info/video out.

[the_crayon_king]

21 minutes ago, Reality Studio said:

Screw it, bought one anyway, I'll figure it out once you get your info/video out.

As long as you don't randomly bridge pins or reverse power/ground then you can't really mess anything up. If you mix around the other pins it will not work but it won't break anything. I am more concerned with the people that would shoot 5V into ground breaking their gear. I will have a video in a few days.

 

@-^CrossBow^- may do another video. His production values are way better than anything I can do over here. The video he did for the older board still is relevant here. I only changed the board size and the input pad names., but they are still in the same order.

Edited May 24, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[+-^CrossBow^-]

6 minutes ago, the_crayon_king said:

As long as you don't randomly bridge pins or reverse power/ground then you can't really mess anything up. If you mix around the other pins it will not work but it won't break anything. I am more concerned with the people that would shoot 5V into ground breaking their gear. I will have a video in a few days.

 

@-^CrossBow^- may do another video. His production values are way better than anything I can do over here. The video he did for the older board still is relevant here. I only changed the board size and the input pad names., but they are still in the same order.

I did purchase one of the new boards. But my plan is to initially swap it out with the one I have in my Intelly 2 now which is the older board design and what my first video pretty much already covered. However, I did get get in another Intellivision that I need to see if I can repair it and bring it back to life first and then see about putting one of these new boards into it.

 

[the_crayon_king]

47 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I did purchase one of the new boards. But my plan is to initially swap it out with the one I have in my Intelly 2 now which is the older board design and what my first video pretty much already covered. However, I did get get in another Intellivision that I need to see if I can repair it and bring it back to life first and then see about putting one of these new boards into it.

 

I kind of only put 5 of these together I need to make some more.

 

Do you have any idea if the PAL consoles would work with this?

I know SECAM has it's own little thing for making video but I have no clue about PAL.

I don't know if it is missing the sync pulses for instance.

Or if sync is in the same format.

[YannAros]

They are at least 2 SECAM variants, the most common one is a modified PAL console.

The STIC is always the same.

PAL variants also have the missing sync pulses.

 

If you take V1..V5 and clk as inputs  it should work also on PAL, at least if you rely only on input signals for clocking the device.

Edited May 24, 2021 by YannAros

[the_crayon_king]

9 hours ago, YannAros said:

They are at least 2 SECAM variants, the most common one is a modified PAL console.

The STIC is always the same.

PAL variants also have the missing sync pulses.

 

If you take V1..V5 and clk as inputs  it should work also on PAL, at least if you rely only on input signals for clocking the device.

Because the differences in clock speed I am not sure that PAL would work right out of the box. It all depends on if the timing of sync is still in the same relative places compared to the clock count.

 

If the current board doesn't work with PAL then I can fix it but that would take up so much room that the board would be specific to PAL or NTSC. If anyone knows/has a PAL console they are looking to get sell for cheap let me know. Particularly, if you are in the US.

 

 

[Reality Studio]

Took a look at the board pics, seems easy enough to connect all connection points on the left side of the board to the respective pins on the 8915. But for the right side connection points do they have to connect to the 8 pin din board or is it possible to just connect them somehow as composite out? Only ask because my Intv 2 is already modded for composite out and I don't have an 8 pin din cable, so it'd be easier to just connect it as composite out if possible since all the connetors are already there, just wasn't sure if that was feasible.

[the_crayon_king]

7 hours ago, Reality Studio said:

Took a look at the board pics, seems easy enough to connect all connection points on the left side of the board to the respective pins on the 8915. But for the right side connection points do they have to connect to the 8 pin din board or is it possible to just connect them somehow as composite out? Only ask because my Intv 2 is already modded for composite out and I don't have an 8 pin din cable, so it'd be easier to just connect it as composite out if possible since all the connetors are already there, just wasn't sure if that was feasible.

From how I read what you wrote; you have a composite mod but you want to use my kit to output RGB then convert that to composite? Why?

 

Or do you mean: "Can you just use RCA jacks for the output?"

If that is the case then yea you could send out YPbPr through 3 RCAs.

You would still need a scaler but RCA cables are easier to find than SCART.

 

What you probably need is to set yours up similarly to crossbow's. That is have a TRRS jack and then a breakout to send out the three YPbPr RCAs. From there you just need a scaler.

 

Just let me know exactly what you are trying to do and I will try to advise better.
-----------------------------------------

On another note I have made several videos but my camera is so bad they have been unwatchable. I need like a budget camera that has like a arm mount. I'll be looking into that.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

9 hours ago, Reality Studio said:

Took a look at the board pics, seems easy enough to connect all connection points on the left side of the board to the respective pins on the 8915. But for the right side connection points do they have to connect to the 8 pin din board or is it possible to just connect them somehow as composite out? Only ask because my Intv 2 is already modded for composite out and I don't have an 8 pin din cable, so it'd be easier to just connect it as composite out if possible since all the connetors are already there, just wasn't sure if that was feasible.

@the_crayon_king already has some good suggestions. But to be clear, this board that Crayon has designed is strictly component (YUV) and RGB output only. It does NOT provide a composite output connection. 

 

If you already have RCA jacks on the back for the composite output, you can leave that in place, but to use anything meaningful from this board you will have to either install additional jacks for YUV component outputs, or a mini-din jack for RGB cable use. I installed a 9-pin mini-din in mine so I could just use the Sega RGB SCART cables I already have on hand for other systems. If I were to install composite into my Intellivision 2, I could just run the composite output wire from the composite mod board, to the unused CVID pin on my 9-pin min-din out. That would allow me to use standard sega cables for the model 2 genesis and nomad systems which are cheap to get. 

 

I installed the TRRRS jack because of the fairly limited space along the bottom that exists for RCA jacks and to ensure they wouldn't possibly short out against the main board. So in mine, I have RCAs for audio output on the far left back of the system where there is dead empty space behind it inside the consoles, and the TRRS jack with a breakout cable to provide me with the R,G,B RCAs for component output.

 

 

[the_crayon_king]

26 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

@the_crayon_king already has some good suggestions. But to be clear, this board that Crayon has designed is strictly component (YUV) and RGB output only. It does NOT provide a composite output connection. 

 

If you already have RCA jacks on the back for the composite output, you can leave that in place, but to use anything meaningful from this board you will have to either install additional jacks for YUV component outputs, or a mini-din jack for RGB cable use. I installed a 9-pin mini-din in mine so I could just use the Sega RGB SCART cables I already have on hand for other systems. If I were to install composite into my Intellivision 2, I could just run the composite output wire from the composite mod board, to the unused CVID pin on my 9-pin min-din out. That would allow me to use standard sega cables for the model 2 genesis and nomad systems which are cheap to get. 

 

I installed the TRRRS jack because of the fairly limited space along the bottom that exists for RCA jacks and to ensure they wouldn't possibly short out against the main board. So in mine, I have RCAs for audio output on the far left back of the system where there is dead empty space behind it inside the consoles, and the TRRS jack with a breakout cable to provide me with the R,G,B RCAs for component output.

 

 

I do have plans on making a composite/S-Video add on board for this.

Or maybe using this other DAC that supports RGB, S-Video, and Composite all at once. (this would disable YPbPr though). PbPr could be mixed in analog from RGB but IDK if that is worth the effort. 

 

Composite might be improved by using an encoder to convert the RGB out from this board to composite. I still have to test that. I tested it before but not very thoroughly. You see I don't have a composite mod on my console. I am certainly not going to buy one. I might make one just so I have something to compare the RGB mixed composite with.

 

One reason I have been wary of using the 9 pin is because if people use the default SEGA cable with the 75 ohm resistors internal to the console they are going to get very dark., possibly unstable picture.

Another reason is that I cannot find a 9 pin connector that can be mounted through the console shell. 

 

I think the best way would be to have a output connector that replaces the RF slot with something else 9 pin or 8 pin. The tolerance for something like that would be pretty small but I do have a caliper.

 

Or make a little 3d printed multiout (nintendo) connector. That way if you want to add CV or Y/C its already  got many cables that exist in the wild.

------------------

I went out and bought a webcam so that I might actually make a tutorial video that is legible. I have been making tutorials every board revision but they have been unsuitably poor quality.

I am running out of consoles to run through the install process with. Every time I shoot a video that is one less console I have to work with. (I am not going to uninstall just to run through the process again).

 

I should be able to shoot the video today. It may take longer to edit. I will include all of the extraneous info that is just too dense to write out.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well, I had to leave the 75Ω output resistors on your previous board because without them, there was no picture. Even on Yannick's RGB board I've been leaving the 75Ω outputs on them because I feel the picture is way too bright otherwise on my setup compared to other RGB sources I use. What I can tell you about the cables I've been using is that I have confirmed they have resistors and 220µf caps inline to the outputs internally in the SCART housing and at least with those cables, everything has been working fine and looks really good, minus the still unstable dropouts on the earlier revision boards but that isn't due to the cables.

 

All the captures I've shown were using an insurrection industries cable that has the resistors and caps in the SCART housing and still leaving the resistors on the RGB board going into a Tink2x SCART. Looks really good to me?

 

Not the most elegant, but it is the only 9-pin female panel mount style I can find. I just solder the PCB mount versions upside down onto the main board somewhere or if I had to, I would epoxy it down but this would work as well provided you wire it up the same way.

 

https://vetco.net/products/9-pin-mini-din-female-panel-mount-jack

[mattyv316]

@the_crayon_king, I just finished installing your latest revision and so far, everything looks great. I only had a chance to test OSSC with a couple carts and LTO. They all seemed to display great through the OSSC on 5x. I will do further testing on other devices later, but wanted to at least post the initial good results.

[Reality Studio]

6 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

From how I read what you wrote; you have a composite mod but you want to use my kit to output RGB then convert that to composite? Why?

My bad I think I worded it poorly, but basically using your mod to hookup to the existing rca (composite) out on my console. For me I don't need super dooper quality, really I just wanted color accuracy. The composite mods I've seen all have wrong colors which makes some games like Utopia tough to play, and it happens to be a game we love to live stream on Twitch. With your mod I figure it'll get accurate colors, but then if I could use it to give composite out from my existing rca jacks on the console that would be good enough for me. If not no biggie, I'll hunt around for an 8 pin din cable on ebay and go with that. The Retrotink 5x that I use has scart, composite and s-video inputs so for me to upscale that to hdmi is basically automatic.

 

That's how we use my Atari 2600 as well. I have an rgb mod on it because it was the only mod I found that gave accurate colors, from there I use s-video out to the upscaler when we stream it.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Reality Studio

[the_crayon_king]

@-^CrossBow^- Those SEGA cables should have the 75 removed and instead 75 added to the console. That is what is "correct". I know we have went over all that before.

 

I don't know why adding 75 ohm in series doesn't seem to hurt your video. In theory everything should be about as half as bright as it is supposed to be.

 

That 9 pin could be used on the model 1 maybe. Good luck trying that on the model 2.

I should probably start on a board that replaces RF since that will be the cleanest option. However, off by a millimeter and the thing is trash.

 

@mattyv316 That is good to hear. I assumed this would work on the 5X just didn't know for sure. I am particularly curious about LTO functionality but I will have to wait till someone reports back. (EDIT) I missed the LTO part, can you confirm if it still drops video or does anything else weird?

 

 

@Reality Studio I think if you stream then RGB/YPbPr would be a must. Part of the deal with conversion to composite or RF is loss of color accuracy. Although, the colors output are only really accurate to what I set them. What shows up on individual TVs over RF is sort of not a specific value. Another way to say that is my RF colors aren't necessarily your RF colors. RGB can be converted to composite with an additional circuit but I haven't tested that nor would I recommend it if you already have the OSSC. Picture is going to look incredibly more clear over RGB or YPbPr. You can get YPbPr RCAs and that might be easier for you to install and/or get cables for.

------------------------

I recorded a video and a little gameplay. Dunno if it is watchable yet. I am going to commentate over the thing.

Edited May 27, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[+-^CrossBow^-]

All of the Sega cables I've seen for RGB have the resistors and caps inside their cart housings. In the case of the TMS-RGB I did have to remove the output resistors off the TMS-RGB board as it was a noticably darker picture with them in place. But on Yannicks and your older board at least, this is NOT the case. So unless the cheap SCART to HDMI converter and Tink2x SCART are doing something to the signal, I can't see it. Then again, it looks the same with Yannick's through the OSSC as the Tink2x SCART. I agree that the resistors should be removed, but without them, the picture is too bright through Yannick's board and there is no picture at all from your older board without them. So that is why I stated in my video regarding those resistors that they be left in place at first and if the picture is too dark, then remove them. Could be your newer version board will require them to be removed and if that is the case I will mention that in my model 1 install video with your new board once I've received it and have another working model 1 to use for the installation.

 

I feel like we are arguing and I'm honestly not trying to at all here. Just stating that I've purchased like 3 different Genesis model 2 RGB cables from different places and they all had the resistors and caps in the SCART housing. And the cables are all completely different so at least in the case of the Sega RGB cables, those resistors and caps in the scart housing are a thing and appears to be how it is done. Id rather all the RGB cables be a standard but they aren't and haven't been and likely won't be.

 

So yes, if the resistors need to stay or be removed on the output lines will vary depending on which cables are used with the setup. 

 

[the_crayon_king]

@-^CrossBow^- Argument? Lol, no. I think my tone is hard to interpret over text. Assume I mean anything I say with like a carefree attitude because that is how I am in reality.

 

Anyway there is no argument on whether adding resistors 3 feet into the SCART head is incorrect that is just fact. I assume cable makers did this because it means the console wouldn't need modified. There could be official SEGA rgb cables with resistors in the SCART head; it would still be wrong. That doesn't mean it will hurt the video. Which is what I was referring to we had already went over this. That phrasing does sound inflammatory now that I have read it aloud. My bad.

 

If you absolutely wanted to use the 9 pin without modifying the cable you could add a THS7374 to the RGBS outputs. Unlike the DAC the THS7374 has appreciable DC offset so you will have to have capacitors if you aren't using them already. So the input to the 7374 would have a 75 ohm pulldown, the outputs would be just straight lines out since the caps/resistors are in the cable. It's something you can hand-built fairly easily or I can make a file for it if you want a dedicated PCB.

 

Give me like 30 mins I'll make a board and put it on OSHpark or someplace.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

220µf caps are also present I believe in the SCART housings as well. But I've left the caps in place on all the RGB board output lines without any issues that I could see on my setup.

 

 

[the_crayon_king]

51 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

220µf caps are also present I believe in the SCART housings as well. But I've left the caps in place on all the RGB board output lines without any issues that I could see on my setup.

 

 

Probably better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them.

The only exception would be having caps in series which is bad overall.

-----------------------------------------

Here is a PCB that could be used for the SEGA cables. Just add it to the end of the mod kit.

I made everything 0805 so it could be used by about anyone.

 

Set the pad named "LPF" to turn on a low pass filter (may do something idk).

If you are doing the SEGA cable thing then solder down the three jumpers you see by the outputs. Then your SEGA cable should act like it would for mods that remove the 75 ohm series resistance. This is the same width/layout as the mod kit.

 

Keep in mind anyone who might stumble upon this., do not remove any resistors on the mod kit (this board below is not the mod kit; just a simple video buffer). I keep repeating to not remove resistors because of the potential for harm and/or bricked boards. 

 

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/MoCLXLoh

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[Reality Studio]

21 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

@Reality Studio I think if you stream then RGB/YPbPr would be a must. Part of the deal with conversion to composite or RF is loss of color accuracy. Although, the colors output are only really accurate to what I set them. What shows up on individual TVs over RF is sort of not a specific value. Another way to say that is my RF colors aren't necessarily your RF colors. RGB can be converted to composite with an additional circuit but I haven't tested that nor would I recommend it if you already have the OSSC. Picture is going to look incredibly more clear over RGB or YPbPr. You can get YPbPr RCAs and that might be easier for you to install and/or get cables for.

 

Gotcha, well I went through my stash of scart cables of which I have dozens somehow and I did actually find one with an 8 pin din connector, so I guess I'll give that a try after all. I got your kit,  thank you! One question, normally the din connector itself would have a nut that goes with it such that you drill a hole in the case, slide the din connector through, then screw the nut on the other side to keep it on tightly on the console case. This one in the kit doesn't have such a nut but is that little board after it's soldered on what will actually hold the din connector in place instead? Aside from that I think I understand the rest of the install, will try it this weekend, just wasn't quite sure how the 8 pin din connector gets secured to the console housing.