ChildOfCv Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) Another curious question: Before color was restored, did the B/W screen have the same fussiness? Also, after solving the black screen issue, have you tried other games again? Also also, with the apparent fragility of the PCB, I wonder if there are some cracked solder joints or partially separated pads elsewhere on the PCB? I wonder if systematically pressing on each PCB component might find one in particular that affects the picture quality more dramatically? You could also use a loupe lens to look closely at each solder joint to see if any breaks, cracks, or cold joints exist. Edited October 6, 2020 by ChildOfCv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChildOfCv Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 6 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said: Okay... so at this point I'd have to lean on the TIA being the issue unless that was tried already and I missed that further up? It's weird since some of the issue (like the crawling fuzz) seems like analog interference, but the blue borders and streaks and black lines on the colored background screens are almost certainly digital artifacts. It's almost as if there are 2 separate problems to chase. BTW, did you also try multiple RIOTs too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 7 hours ago, Starglider01 said: I haven't specifically desoldered/replaced those as I didn't want to damage any pads on the VCS, but I believe that the bypassing test I did ruled that out. However I will probably give it a go soon just to be sure. Pray for my pads! I meant to ask you as I see you own an FR-301 (I own the slightly oler FR-300), what temp setting are you using? I tend to do nearly all of my de-soldering work with the 300 set between 1 and 2 on the wheel. I occasionally might have to turn it to 2 - 3 if I want to remove a large amount of solder from a large ground plane, say an RF modulator for instance but 90% of the time I can do what is needed with it set to much lower settings and that will ensure no damage to the pads in most cases. Also, hard to tell in your video, but you need to make sure that the tip of the de-soldering iron touches the pads as little as possible. This is especially true when you do the circular wiggle while activating the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) On 10/6/2020 at 12:48 AM, ChildOfCv said: Another curious question: Before color was restored, did the B/W screen have the same fussiness? Also, after solving the black screen issue, have you tried other games again? Also also, with the apparent fragility of the PCB, I wonder if there are some cracked solder joints or partially separated pads elsewhere on the PCB? I wonder if systematically pressing on each PCB component might find one in particular that affects the picture quality more dramatically? You could also use a loupe lens to look closely at each solder joint to see if any breaks, cracks, or cold joints exist. Yes, B&W had the same interference according to my footage. Other games are the same... Defender... Asteroids... Solder issues are possible. I've reflowed the 3 chips though I didn't install new sockets (they looked good). I've pushed and poked and prodded everything over the past weeks! The only changes to the picture are when lifting the entire board or playing with the composite mod wires. Reassembling the VCS into the RF shield doesn't help. I have tried 2 RIOTs, CPUs, and TIAs. Edited October 7, 2020 by Starglider01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) On 10/6/2020 at 6:29 AM, -^CrossBow^- said: I meant to ask you as I see you own an FR-301 (I own the slightly oler FR-300), what temp setting are you using? I tend to do nearly all of my de-soldering work with the 300 set between 1 and 2 on the wheel. I occasionally might have to turn it to 2 - 3 if I want to remove a large amount of solder from a large ground plane, say an RF modulator for instance but 90% of the time I can do what is needed with it set to much lower settings and that will ensure no damage to the pads in most cases. Also, hard to tell in your video, but you need to make sure that the tip of the de-soldering iron touches the pads as little as possible. This is especially true when you do the circular wiggle while activating the pump. I generally have it on 2-3, higher for the big switch pads. I will turn it down a little on your recommendation for these older pads. My wiggling is 0.5mm off the board - its just general good practice as you say :-) The regulator pads were lost due to the heat sink not being soldered to the ground plane from the factory, so unfortunately when I put it down and some weight was exerted on it, it pushed the VR pins through and lifted the traces. That repair seems solid now though FWIW and touching it makes no difference to the picture. The only things I haven't tried that I can think of are: 1. Replacing the mod's wires completely (complex/risky due to tiny SMD PCB) 2. Installing new sockets for the 3 chips Edited October 7, 2020 by Starglider01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Well, the fact that you can make the picture change by moving the composite mod wiring indicates some signal loss is happening within that wiring. Is it possible you have a break within one or more of the wires themselves? The issue actually appears like the ground isn't making a good connection somewhere within the mix of things. The good news is that what you are getting at least tells us that the system is at least 'mostly' working. Kinda like how it might have only been 'mostly' dead when you originally received it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChildOfCv Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 2 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said: Well, the fact that you can make the picture change by moving the composite mod wiring indicates some signal loss is happening within that wiring. Is it possible you have a break within one or more of the wires themselves? The issue actually appears like the ground isn't making a good connection somewhere within the mix of things. The good news is that what you are getting at least tells us that the system is at least 'mostly' working. Kinda like how it might have only been 'mostly' dead when you originally received it. Come to think of it, I wonder what quality the solder joints on the mod PCB are? Was it done by an assembly machine, or by hand? From my own experience, it's easy to get a component that LOOKS like it is in place, but is actually hovering 0.001" above the pad. Try systematically testing each solder joint on the mod PCB too, by attempting to complete the circuit through your meter probe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 10, 2020 Author Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) On 10/7/2020 at 2:37 PM, -^CrossBow^- said: Well, the fact that you can make the picture change by moving the composite mod wiring indicates some signal loss is happening within that wiring. Is it possible you have a break within one or more of the wires themselves? The issue actually appears like the ground isn't making a good connection somewhere within the mix of things. The good news is that what you are getting at least tells us that the system is at least 'mostly' working. Kinda like how it might have only been 'mostly' dead when you originally received it. I have now replaced those wires completely and soldered new ones to the SMD board directly. Moving the wires no longer affects the image quality. So I'm going to say there was an issue in the wires. However, I still get the interference on the picture. I just can't change it now. Overall I'd say it's better though! Here's the latest example: https://photos.app.goo.gl/RJGysPAREtMJ2Lsz8 To me, at the end when I reset the VCS so the coloured background stops changing, it isn't terrible for a 44 year old machine. Should I really be striving for greater heights? If so, what's next? All I can think of is resocketing the TIA etc. Worth the risk? Edited October 10, 2020 by Starglider01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 10, 2020 Author Share Posted October 10, 2020 On 10/7/2020 at 4:48 PM, ChildOfCv said: Come to think of it, I wonder what quality the solder joints on the mod PCB are? Was it done by an assembly machine, or by hand? From my own experience, it's easy to get a component that LOOKS like it is in place, but is actually hovering 0.001" above the pad. Try systematically testing each solder joint on the mod PCB too, by attempting to complete the circuit through your meter probe. Tried but no improvements noted. Thanks anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 On the blue square like effects you see on the sides.... turn down the brightness a smidge to get rid of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share Posted October 11, 2020 34 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said: On the blue square like effects you see on the sides.... turn down the brightness a smidge to get rid of them. Sure, that works. Is that normal then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Starglider01 said: Sure, that works. Is that normal then? I've heard from others using similar composite mods on the 2600 that it is indeed normal yes. I've not seen them using a UAV upgrade board on 7800s but they are pretty normal on the 2600s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share Posted October 11, 2020 Okay. Just that RF ripple moving up the screen to worry about then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChildOfCv Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, Starglider01 said: Okay. Just that RF ripple moving up the screen to worry about then... Yep. Are you still waiting for a new power supply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share Posted October 11, 2020 Yep. Are you still waiting for a new power supply?I have tried 4 now. So no lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Have you put it totally back together with the RF shielding in place to see if it helps with that at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChildOfCv Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Hmm. Maybe you should go ahead and remove L201 then. The instructions for 6 switch PAL say to remove R209, L201, Q202, and R216. Yeah, yours is NTSC, but all of these components are in the audio modulator circuit, which is identical except for a couple of component values on both systems. L201 is the only one you haven't removed yet, at least from your previously posted photos of the PCB Perhaps it induces some sort of ringing in the video output circuit, even though most of the circuit it's in was castrated. Incidentally, they do not say to remove R210, but it shouldn't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share Posted October 11, 2020 Have you put it totally back together with the RF shielding in place to see if it helps with that at all? I have and it didn't help, but I haven't tried it since the latest improvements. Will try again tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share Posted October 11, 2020 Hmm. Maybe you should go ahead and remove L201 then. The instructions for 6 switch PAL say to remove R209, L201, Q202, and R216. Yeah, yours is NTSC, but all of these components are in the audio modulator circuit, which is identical except for a couple of component values on both systems. L201 is the only one you haven't removed yet, at least from your previously posted photos of the PCB Perhaps it induces some sort of ringing in the video output circuit, even though most of the circuit it's in was castrated. Incidentally, they do not say to remove R210, but it shouldn't hurt.L201 was out a while ago, then back in, and is now back out... No change. I don't know that I still have R210 to reinstall. Do we think that will stop the ripple or not likely?Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChildOfCv Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 12 hours ago, Starglider01 said: L201 was out a while ago, then back in, and is now back out... No change. I don't know that I still have R210 to reinstall. Do we think that will stop the ripple or not likely? Thanks guys. Not likely 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share Posted October 11, 2020 Well I've put everything back together and this is the best I can get it. unfortunately the interference looks worse on a better TV. Video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/2J1gqPZgBreE59JG6But this gives you a very good look at the interference pattern in case that helps some more. Interestingly if I only plugged the left audio in the interference was 10 times worse. Plugging both audio jacks in made things much better, which is what you see. I'm willing to forgive this as it is nearly half a century old, but if you have any other ideas to let me know. Thank you all for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChildOfCv Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 What if you only have the video cable plugged in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 12, 2020 Author Share Posted October 12, 2020 What if you only have the video cable plugged in?Same problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglider01 Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 I just had a breakthrough! I had tried 5 outlets in different rooms and opposite ends of the house. I tried a 6th outlet, with an extension cable, and suddenly the ripple is gone!! The picture is as close to perfect as I could've hoped! So there was something in the electrical circuits bothering the old hardware of the VCS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ This is as close to a solution as I could hope so I'm happy to say... drum roll please... problem solved! Thank you all so much for your help. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prizrak Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 The Atari seems to be pretty sensitive to electrical interference. I had my 2600 sitting on top of my xbox with no interference and have rearranged stuff and now it's on top of my satellite box and it has some interference. I just can't win, gotta find a plan B for the satellite location.Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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