ULTRASATAN doesn't work on Atart ST 520 or 1040

[zezba9000]

So I just got a ULTRASATAN and came with a prepared SD card.

 

However I can't launch any games. On both the 520 and 1040 these steps happen the same:

* Turn on ULTRASATAN then turn on computer.

* No hard-drive is detected.

* While power is on hit reset button

* Now hard-drive is detect.

* I navigate to a games folder and a list of sub-folders with game names appear.

* Now I open a game folder and it says there are zero files.

* So I go back a directory and now the games folder says there are no game folders anymore.

* Plugging the SD card into Windows shows all the game files do exist

 

Am I missing something?

Edited October 7, 2020 by zezba9000

[ParanoidLittleMan]

It is most likely because you have TOS 1.00 or 1.02 in those machines. And they are not good with so many files in partitions.

There is new SD card image, what is done specially for those old TOS versions.  https://www.mediafire.com/file/hgkdnnwym334ilg/1000GamesT02.zip/file

541 MB. Unpack it and write to SD card - 2 GB card min needed. 

Btw. UltraSatan should be detected without extra reset after power on. Maybe recap of PSU is necessary ?

Before asking: TOS 1.00 is year 1985, 1.02 is 1987, 1.04 is 1989 in Desktop Info .

[zezba9000]

11 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

It is most likely because you have TOS 1.00 or 1.02 in those machines. And they are not good with so many files in partitions.

There is new SD card image, what is done specially for those old TOS versions.  https://www.mediafire.com/file/hgkdnnwym334ilg/1000GamesT02.zip/file

541 MB. Unpack it and write to SD card - 2 GB card min needed. 

Btw. UltraSatan should be detected without extra reset after power on. Maybe recap of PSU is necessary ?

Before asking: TOS 1.00 is year 1985, 1.02 is 1987, 1.04 is 1989 in Desktop Info .

Ok thanks for link, will test image after work.

 

So I used Linux to clone my 16gb SD card to a 2gb SD card and it would always boot with a single power on (no reset needed).

However file system will show zero files or mangled names.

 

Both systems behave identical so don't think its caps and one was recapped I think already.

Hopefully the image you send solves the issue. Will update when I know more.

[zezba9000]

So that image worked. Many apps fail to run though. I only have 1mb in each computer.

Guess I'll have to get 4mb expansions as I think stuff is running out of ram.

 

Are there cheaper options or do they all cost 100$ for 4mb ?

[snarkdluG]

1 hour ago, zezba9000 said:

...Guess I'll have to get 4mb expansions as I think stuff is running out of ram.

 

Are there cheaper options or do they all cost 100$ for 4mb ?

Most likely involves soldering if you don't have a STe? What revision of mother board do you have in the Atari? 

Edited October 8, 2020 by snarkdluG

[ParanoidLittleMan]

10 hours ago, zezba9000 said:

So that image worked. Many apps fail to run though. I only have 1mb in each computer.

Guess I'll have to get 4mb expansions as I think stuff is running out of ram.

 

Are there cheaper options or do they all cost 100$ for 4mb ?

It's not only because RAM. SW is written in most cases to run from floppy. Copying it to hard disk means not that it will run from it too for sure. More or less corrections are needed. Simple example:  in program file is referenced with:  A:\FILE - that will fail when it runs from C :  (damn smileys) . Correction is needed in code, and usually it is much harder case.

 

Question:  did you receive US and SD card with games from Lotharek ?  I ask because I sent him this, more compatible image months ago.

 

Ah, and something, maybe more useful than not simple RAM upgrade (yeah, soldering): TOS upgrade. With TOS 1.04 it will be much better.

 

[zezba9000]

15 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

It's not only because RAM. SW is written in most cases to run from floppy. Copying it to hard disk means not that it will run from it too for sure. More or less corrections are needed. Simple example:  in program file is referenced with:  A:\FILE - that will fail when it runs from C :  (damn smileys) . Correction is needed in code, and usually it is much harder case.

 

Question:  did you receive US and SD card with games from Lotharek ?  I ask because I sent him this, more compatible image months ago.

 

Ah, and something, maybe more useful than not simple RAM upgrade (yeah, soldering): TOS upgrade. With TOS 1.04 it will be much better.

 

Yes I got it from Lotharek.

What Atari systems come with a newer TOS by default? I was surprised my 1040 only had 1.0.0 on it just like the 520.

 

So because of cost I might only update my ST 1040 to 4mb.

Does this seem like a good option? https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Atari-520-1040-ST-STF-STFM-Mega-ST-computer-4MB-Marpet-memory-upgrade-kit/163052527031

Edited October 8, 2020 by zezba9000

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Newer Atari revisions came with newer TOS versions - of course.

1985 - 1.00

1987 - 1.02

1989 - 1.04

 

Because of cost ? That's RAM upgrade price is ridiculously high.

I can send you TOS 1.04 chips for half of that price (including oversea shipping).

[zzip]

4 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

1987 - 1.02

My 1987 STfm still came with TOS 1.0 on ROM, which was disappointing.   I think 1.02 was only in the Megas?

 

On 10/8/2020 at 1:00 AM, zezba9000 said:

So that image worked. Many apps fail to run though.

Which apps specifically?  As @ParanoidLittleMan mentioned, some things might be hard coded to look for A:    However, in my experience, most applications worked from hard disk, problem was mostly games.    Any game that you download and unpacks to its own folder should work fine.   Many commercial games had copy protection tied to the floppy and didn't expect to run from anything else.   Some later games were hard-drive friendly

[ParanoidLittleMan]

I bought my first ST in April 1987, and it was with TOS 1.00 . Mega ST was first with 1.02, but there was no reason to not put it in ordinary ST machines too little later.

 

There were some games which could install to hard disk, but it started only with original floppy in drive A: - copy protection check. After that it did not access floppy at all.

And there are much more problems with transferring to hard disk than simple unpack to some folder. For instance RAM usage - hard disk driver may set too much buffers, or user installed some resident SW, ACC - and game code is written for low RAM area - even 4 MB RAM helps not in such case. Or game works not even from floppy in higher TOS version - Millennium 2.2 . Again, because low RAM conflict.

 

 

[zzip]

21 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

I bought my first ST in April 1987, and it was with TOS 1.00 . Mega ST was first with 1.02, but there was no reason to not put it in ordinary ST machines too little later.

 

There were some games which could install to hard disk, but it started only with original floppy in drive A: - copy protection check. After that it did not access floppy at all.

And there are much more problems with transferring to hard disk than simple unpack to some folder. For instance RAM usage - hard disk driver may set too much buffers, or user installed some resident SW, ACC - and game code is written for low RAM area - even 4 MB RAM helps not in such case. Or game works not even from floppy in higher TOS version - Millennium 2.2 . Again, because low RAM conflict.

 

 

Guess I was lucky, when I finally got a hard drive, it was on an STe with 4mb, with TOS 2.06 on ROM.      So any issues related to low memory, I didn't experience,  any issues releated to TOS bugs, I didn't experience.    I was able to boot with 5 or 6 ACCs at all times, and most things I installed to HD worked fine-  main exception being commercial games with copy protection.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

In case of games it worked (what you DL-ed for instance) because it was fixed, adapted, 'patched' for running from hard disk.

Just one example:  Carrier Command - not copy protected, actually they recommend to copy it, and play from copy. Protection is so called manual protection. And it was checked later, after some 50 minutes of play was that executed properly - quick cracks just check for game start .

And you can not copy it to hard disk, because there are no files. Game accessing floppy with own code (direct FDC access). Benefit of it is that there is more free RAM for game self.  TOS will eat min some 40-60 KB RAM in case of boot of SW from floppy or AUTO run. More in case of Desktop start. While ASM floppy code can fit in couple hundred bytes.  To make such game to work from hard disk need to replace all floppy access code with hard disk access code, and that must work with original RAM layout - what is actually impossible - game and TOS use same, low RAM area.

Earlier solutions were with RAMdisk, what contained basically floppy image. That's fast, simple. but when game is on several floppies needs plenty of RAM. Then may pack data.  Advanced solution solved somehow access to hard disk - game is stopped, RAM content is swapped (before start TOS workspace is saved in high RAM) , after load RAM content is swapped again ... Or there is special hard disk driver, what can work in high RAM, and access disk without using low RAM .

About 40 % of games use that direct FDC, sometimes even when there are regular files on floppy - mostly because need for all RAM in machine.

So, it's not all in copy protection.

 

TOS bugs - actually there are not some real bugs in usual meaning. Except TOS 1.06 Desktop.inf bug, and that's still minor one.

There are rather TOS limitations, and much more cases when SW works not well with some TOS versions. And there are bugs in SW. Most stupid is when SW works well with 512 KB RAM, or 1 MB, but fails with more RAM. Lack of testing and RAM in developers computer(s). And lack of thinking.

And poor Atari DOCs are reason for some problems too.  + some changes in TOS versions - like floppy code in 2.06 - affects mostly games, those which use Timer-C for own purpose. 

Experience ? Over 1300 games adapted, some 'serious' SW too. TOS examined in deep. And more. 

[zzip]

8 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

In case of games it worked (what you DL-ed for instance) because it was fixed, adapted, 'patched' for running from hard disk.

Just one example:  Carrier Command - not copy protected, actually they recommend to copy it, and play from copy. Protection is so called manual protection. And it was checked later, after some 50 minutes of play was that executed properly - quick cracks just check for game start .

And you can not copy it to hard disk, because there are no files. Game accessing floppy with own code (direct FDC access). Benefit of it is that there is more free RAM for game self.  TOS will eat min some 40-60 KB RAM in case of boot of SW from floppy or AUTO run. More in case of Desktop start. While ASM floppy code can fit in couple hundred bytes.  To make such game to work from hard disk need to replace all floppy access code with hard disk access code, and that must work with original RAM layout - what is actually impossible - game and TOS use same, low RAM area.

Earlier solutions were with RAMdisk, what contained basically floppy image. That's fast, simple. but when game is on several floppies needs plenty of RAM. Then may pack data.  Advanced solution solved somehow access to hard disk - game is stopped, RAM content is swapped (before start TOS workspace is saved in high RAM) , after load RAM content is swapped again ... Or there is special hard disk driver, what can work in high RAM, and access disk without using low RAM .

About 40 % of games use that direct FDC, sometimes even when there are regular files on floppy - mostly because need for all RAM in machine.

So, it's not all in copy protection.

 

TOS bugs - actually there are not some real bugs in usual meaning. Except TOS 1.06 Desktop.inf bug, and that's still minor one.

There are rather TOS limitations, and much more cases when SW works not well with some TOS versions. And there are bugs in SW. Most stupid is when SW works well with 512 KB RAM, or 1 MB, but fails with more RAM. Lack of testing and RAM in developers computer(s). And lack of thinking.

And poor Atari DOCs are reason for some problems too.  + some changes in TOS versions - like floppy code in 2.06 - affects mostly games, those which use Timer-C for own purpose. 

Experience ? Over 1300 games adapted, some 'serious' SW too. TOS examined in deep. And more. 

The games I downloaded that worked from Hard Disk were usually of the shareware/freeware variety.   Unzip to a folder, and it just works.   If it came as an MSA image, I wouldn't even bother to try to put it on anything but a floppy.    The only commercial games I really tried to put on hard disk and succeeded were multi disk games like Civilization, Ultima VI and some other RPGs.   Those worked.  I didn't expect most to work since I knew many of them used their own boot loaders an didn't have a TOS compatible filesystem.   

 

Copy protection via manual started becoming popular in the late 80s.   At first that seemed like a good solution because it allowed you to copy disks or install to hard drive.   Now though..   I don't think most of us have those manuals handy nearby when we play.   It's even worse for MS-DOS games,  I bought a bunch of DOS games on CD-ROM compilations,  they have manual protection, but they didn't ship with paper manuals.   The manual is on the CD in text or PDF format, which makes it hard to look them up while playing the game.

 

There is a bug in earlier TOSes that shows phantom files with strange names when you list a directory.  This especially happens if you format a disk on MS-DOS and use it on ST.   On 2.06 I don't see the issue, but on lower versions of TOS I saw it quite a lot.

[zezba9000]

10 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Newer Atari revisions came with newer TOS versions - of course.

1985 - 1.00

1987 - 1.02

1989 - 1.04

 

Because of cost ? That's RAM upgrade price is ridiculously high.

I can send you TOS 1.04 chips for half of that price (including oversea shipping).

Can you PM me details I need to buy it from you?

First I just want to validate a couple things about what I would be buying to make sure its the path I want to take.

* Its a 4mb upgrade + TOS upgrade that will work in my Atari ST 1040? (I will leave my 520 as-is for dev testing on TOS 1.0.0 in the future)

* I don't have to de-solder entire ROM chips or anything of that nature? (What does installation involve?)

* Can Atari ST 1040 be upgraded to TOS 2.x or is 1.0.4 the max recommended if you know or had to guess? (Was 1.0.4 the max 1040 revisions came with?)

[zezba9000]

5 hours ago, zzip said:

Which apps specifically?  As @ParanoidLittleMan mentioned, some things might be hard coded to look for A:    However, in my experience, most applications worked from hard disk, problem was mostly games.    Any game that you download and unpacks to its own folder should work fine.   Many commercial games had copy protection tied to the floppy and didn't expect to run from anything else.   Some later games were hard-drive friendly

I was only trying stuff in the image @ParanoidLittleMan linked.

Only one game booted fully but I couldn't get it to start with my Atari joystick in port 2. (I'll have to find which one it was [scrolling credits in German])

I didn't try a ton of games as the ones that failed or crashed required a power cycle of the computer. Many games had a 2mb min and others that had a 1mb min normally just hard crashed computer causing it to reset.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

22 hours ago, zzip said:

...

There is a bug in earlier TOSes that shows phantom files with strange names when you list a directory.  This especially happens if you format a disk on MS-DOS and use it on ST.   On 2.06 I don't see the issue, but on lower versions of TOS I saw it quite a lot.

I don't think that we should call it bug. MS-DOS tends to perform some specific things, just to be not 100% by standards. Like spoiling MBR of Flash cards - and that destroys TOS autoboot checksum, for instance.  So, older TOS versions are simply not ready to handle some non-standard writes in DIR of disk. Later 2.06 might added some filtering.

And there is Windows LFN problem (long file names), what causes much more troubles than showing strange names - impossible to delete file, wrong disk usage shown ... Of course 2.06 filters it not - LFN is introduced with Windows 95.

And btw. I did not notice it a lot.  But I do care to not write to Atari disks from Windows Explorer, for instance. Total Commander is much better, faster, and there are nice options - like disabling long file names. Check it. It's shareware. No time limit.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

20 hours ago, zezba9000 said:

Can you PM me details I need to buy it from you?

First I just want to validate a couple things about what I would be buying to make sure its the path I want to take.

* Its a 4mb upgrade + TOS upgrade that will work in my Atari ST 1040? (I will leave my 520 as-is for dev testing on TOS 1.0.0 in the future)

* I don't have to de-solder entire ROM chips or anything of that nature? (What does installation involve?)

* Can Atari ST 1040 be upgraded to TOS 2.x or is 1.0.4 the max recommended if you know or had to guess? (Was 1.0.4 the max 1040 revisions came with?)

Will PM you little later.

4 MB upgrade and TOS 1.04 work on every 1040, 520 . And actually it might be less work with 520. Because original RAM must be removed. Or deactivated. But I strongly recommend to remove, and that means to desolder 16 or 32 16 pin chips (because there is TOS 1.00 in your 1040, I don't think that it is with 8 RAM chips - if yes, good for you. )

So, desoldering of RAM chips - yes.  ROM is most likely in sockets, and  6x 28 pin ones. So, that will be easy part. Just replace ROM chips.

 

TOS 2.06 supports ST machines. But it is longer (256 KB instead 192), and because that it goes on different address space. And because it must add extra logic, what addressing that area.  Additionally, need to use 32 pin EPROMs, because fits not in 6 usual 32 KB EPROMs (27C256) .

Then 2 chips 27C1001 are used usually. That means another problem - how to place sockets for them. There are diverse solutions.

http://atari.8bitchip.info/flashest.php

Intermediate 32 pin sockets placed in original 28 pin ones. Need some + soldering, wires. Logic can be in GAL, or with 74xxx chips - there is schematic of it lower "No GAL programmer? There is a simple solution:"

 In any case TOS 2.06 in some ST (including Mega ST) needs some soldering.

Simpler solution is with 4x 27C512 chips :  http://atari.8bitchip.info/tosimav.html

At 60% of page Solution for TOS 2.14 or original 2.06 with 4x 28 pin EPROM chips - no need for intermediate socket, so will remain low.

It needs logic in GAL , and soldering some 15 wires, as is visible on pic.

 

"Many games had a 2mb min and others that had a 1mb min normally just hard crashed computer causing it to reset. "

It seems that your ST(s) work not enough reliable. First thing to do is replacing electrolyte capacitors in PSU(s) - if not done recently.

 

 

[zezba9000]

14 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Will PM you little later.

4 MB upgrade and TOS 1.04 work on every 1040, 520 . And actually it might be less work with 520. Because original RAM must be removed. Or deactivated. But I strongly recommend to remove, and that means to desolder 16 or 32 16 pin chips (because there is TOS 1.00 in your 1040, I don't think that it is with 8 RAM chips - if yes, good for you. )

So, desoldering of RAM chips - yes.  ROM is most likely in sockets, and  6x 28 pin ones. So, that will be easy part. Just replace ROM chips.

 

TOS 2.06 supports ST machines. But it is longer (256 KB instead 192), and because that it goes on different address space. And because it must add extra logic, what addressing that area.  Additionally, need to use 32 pin EPROMs, because fits not in 6 usual 32 KB EPROMs (27C256) .

Then 2 chips 27C1001 are used usually. That means another problem - how to place sockets for them. There are diverse solutions.

http://atari.8bitchip.info/flashest.php

Intermediate 32 pin sockets placed in original 28 pin ones. Need some + soldering, wires. Logic can be in GAL, or with 74xxx chips - there is schematic of it lower "No GAL programmer? There is a simple solution:"

 In any case TOS 2.06 in some ST (including Mega ST) needs some soldering.

Simpler solution is with 4x 27C512 chips :  http://atari.8bitchip.info/tosimav.html

At 60% of page Solution for TOS 2.14 or original 2.06 with 4x 28 pin EPROM chips - no need for intermediate socket, so will remain low.

It needs logic in GAL , and soldering some 15 wires, as is visible on pic.

 

"Many games had a 2mb min and others that had a 1mb min normally just hard crashed computer causing it to reset. "

It seems that your ST(s) work not enough reliable. First thing to do is replacing electrolyte capacitors in PSU(s) - if not done recently.

 

 

Why does the one I linked not require any soldering to upgrade memory?

[snarkdluG]

32 minutes ago, zezba9000 said:

Why does the one I linked not require any soldering to upgrade memory?

It does requires to desolder the on board RAM though.  At least if you want to upgrade to full 4Mb. But mostly it is just plug in on top of mmu and remove shifter, plug in adapter board, plug the shifter in adapter board. As stated before, rather expensive solution. 

 

The manual can be found here. The +8 is not the ram board you linked to. 

 

EDIT: It can be done without desoldering I see in the pic in the 7th post. Needs snipping of some resistors legs instead. 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by snarkdluG

[zezba9000]

10 minutes ago, snarkdluG said:

It does requires to desolder the on board RAM though.  At least if you want to upgrade to full 4Mb. But mostly it is just plug in on top of mmu and remove shifter, plug in adapter board, plug the shifter in adapter board. As stated before, rather expensive solution. 

 

The manual can be found here. The +8 is not the ram board you linked to. 

 

 

It looks like that new 4mb upgrade kit that doesn't require soldering just replaces the MMU: https://www.ebay.com/itm/163052527031

I found a full 6-chip set of TOS 1.04 that will work my 1040 STF. I think I may go with the solderless solution so I can always revert my system if needed. Thats worth the extra cost alone.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

RAM in Atari ST(E) can have 2 banks max. And 1 bank can have capacity of 512 KB or 2 MB. Data width is 16 bits, of course.

There are 10 address lines MAD0 - MAD9, latest is used only with 2 MB banks. And usually (older STs) not accessible on top side of motherboard. Only at MMU socket. And there are 6 control lines RAS0, RAS1, CAS0H, CAS0L, CAS1H, CAS1L - they  go via resistors from MMU to RAM chips.

And that's were can deactivate existing RAM without desoldering chips. But need  to desolder those resistors and connect +5 V on them, so RAM will get  +5V on those pins, so is never selected. Just removing one pin of resistor is not proper solution - you don't let pins floating. Well, that's why I said 'can deactivate' - still some soldering. However, it is much better to remove those chips - still getting power 5V. And they are very old, so may break, even inactive. + chips are connected to bus and load it little.

In adverts some things are just not mentioned. And possible that linked board fits not in all ST revisions - different CPU position.

ST is just not expansion friendly for average user.

[zezba9000]

Found a much better cost for the same upgrade kit: https://www.hhtzine.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=92739

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Yeah, rule #1 in shopping: look for more sources.  Just like Tramiel did it for components/parts.

[zzip]

On 10/10/2020 at 3:05 AM, ParanoidLittleMan said:

I don't think that we should call it bug. MS-DOS tends to perform some specific things, just to be not 100% by standards.

I suppose it depends on whether the ability to use MS-DOS disks was a feature promoted by Atari, or just a lucky side effect of using GEMDOS.   I don't recall Atari ever talking about this feature, I first heard of it in a magazine article where the author recommended formatting the disks in a PC because PC's wouldn't read the Atari-formatted disks from earlier TOSes.

 

On 10/10/2020 at 3:05 AM, ParanoidLittleMan said:

And there is Windows LFN problem (long file names), what causes much more troubles than showing strange names - impossible to delete file, wrong disk usage shown ... Of course 2.06 filters it not - LFN is introduced with Windows 95.

And btw. I did not notice it a lot.  But I do care to not write to Atari disks from Windows Explorer, for instance. Total Commander is much better, faster, and there are nice options - like disabling long file names. Check it. It's shareware. No time limit.

What I was seeing was not LFN issues.   In college, I would write papers on my ST, and taking the disks down to the computer lab to print them on laser printer.  So mostly I was not writing files from DOS machines,  I was just using them to format some of my disks so I could share them between ST and DOS.  I also graduated just before Win95 came out, so everything was vanilla DOS without long filenames.

 

These days I have a Linux script that create ST floppy images for emulators, and creates an MSDOS file system on them.  I also tend to unzip stuff onto them from Linux because it's faster than doing it under an ST emulator.    I do see the phantom files with these disk images a lot, unless I'm using TOS 2.06.   Maybe the Linux file utilities are doing something non-standard too.   But I take care to not write long filenames to them because I don't know how the ST will react.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

OK. Can you post here, or PM me such floppy image - where those phantom files are.

Probably I did not notice them because formatted floppies on Atari. Or just used empty image files on PC with my FloImg program, so basically avoided formatting with PC DOS .

 

MS DOS compatibility with floppies is result of same origin in some way for GEMDOS and DOS - both use FAT12 system established earlier, and by DRI, as I know.  And even in case of hard disks is so, at least until 32 MB partition size (FAT16). Including byte order - low Endian by TOS too.