Would Sonic have ever been as big a seller without SOA's aggressive pack-in marketing?

[Leeroy ST]

I'm sure it may have had some success even without being bundled but I think we can speculate based on the series sales.

The first Sonic flopped in Japan but sold well in NA and later Europe due to Sega of Americas strategy of bundling the game with the Genesis/Mega Drive console along with aggressive advertising promoting the "free" game. Sonic 2 had a few (limited) bundles but nowhere near as much with a 57% drop in sales or so. 

 

Looking at Genesis game sales in sales order:

 

1. Sonic Hedgehog 14-15 million

2. Sonic Hedgehog 2 ~6 million

3. Sonic Hedgehog 3 < 3 million

4. Sonic Hedgehog & Knuckles < 2 million

5. Sonic CD 1.5 million (limited bundle)

6. Sonic Spinball ~ 1 million

7. Sonic 3D Blast (Gen) 700k

 

Now as far as I am aware this is the only (or among top) major new franchise with breakout massive sales that has (substantially) sold less nearly every entry since the original release. With Saturn games doing even worse, this bring up the subject of Sonics REAL appeal in the gaming market, and whether something like a released Sonic X on the Saturn would have even made a difference. Honestly I'm not sure it would have.

 

With the Dreamcast Sonic Adventure, a bundled game, selling over 2 million copies only and with Sonic Heroes, the first major title released on more than one platform, being the last best selling sonic game at over 3 million copies, 17 years ago, I think that this brings Sonic real viability into question.

 

Notice, I am not saying Sonic or its gameplay itself was ever good or not, that's not what this threads about, instead it's about just how much was Sonic appealing to the general gaming market, and from everything I've seen from the Genesis until TODAY, Sonic only had a temporary appeal to the masses on home gaming consoles.

 

Sonic the Hedgehog at first glance was a massive success and people drew into the hype but I would present the argument that it was temporary. Sonic 2 was highly anticipated with adverts pushing it hard and it couldn't even sell half? The same for Sonic 3? Yeah, technically Sonic 3 and Knuckles was supposed to be one game but they were both separately advertised as two different games and the average consumer didn't even realize this until S&K came out with it's unique cart. 

 

I understand Spinball selling 1 million based off earlier Sonic hype(notice list above is not in chronological order just sales order) but it seems clear to me by 3D Blast that the hype was gone. Early footage of 3D Sonic R for the Saturn before people found out what the game was didn't even generate much excitement at the time, and then the reported full 3D Sonic title Sonic X, later cancelled, was covered in mags but generally didn't seem to generate that much hype as it did in retrospect later on.

 

The fact the first anticipated 3D Sonic, Sonic Adventure, only sold some over 2 million copies despite being heavily included with Dreamcast machine for a good while which itself was highly anticipated, outside of Japan anyway, adds to my theory that the market never really was on board the Sonic train long-term. The fact Sonic Heroes has been the best selling Sonic retail title the last 17 years, and would be the 3rd best selling game overall is owned to it releasing on multiple platforms more than anything, and while other Sonic games were released on multiple platforms none managed to achieve the same result. As far as I know Sonic Heroes wasn't bundled either with any console but I could be mistaken.

 

So it seems like to me that Sonic the hedgehogs early success and mindshare was all based on the novelty and hype almost directly caused by the first game and it being as SOJ said "given away" outside of Japan, that eventually declined as the years went buy, and as people moved away from Sega consoles to other machines, Sonic Heroes took advantage of the scattered base likely remembering the nostalgic time with the original Sonic to revitalize  sales but (many) of them then permanently moved on afterward. As evident by the last 17 years of retail sonic sales.

 

I don't think the reason for this was a quality issue, I just don't think Sonic was ever really that much more appealing than many other popular titles on the Gen like MK for example. They put out multiple games that played similarly without changing things up focusing on primarily speed, and then when they did change things up it still didn't appeal to a wider audience. Sonic can produce million sellers as seen on devices like the GBA for example, so it's not like it doesn't sell at all but it was never as high tier as people seem to think it was just based on the available data.

 

Without bundles for Sonic 1 I still think it would have sold a million copies or 2 with good marketing but probably would be seen differently as a result. 

 

 

[HDN]

I am not sure if it would have succeeded or not now that you bring it up. Interesting topic.

[mr_me]

The attach rate for sonic 2 is about the same as smb3 on the nes.  Sonic 2 was by far the best selling cartridge on the system not counting pack-ins.  Sonic and Knuckles was tied for third.  A million cartridges is huge for the Sega Genesis. 

 

Not sure what is meant by pack-in marketing.  In those days marketing dollars was needed to sell video games and a strong pack-in helped sell consoles.  I'd agree that being a pack-in should help the sales of sequels.

Edited October 13, 2020 by mr_me

[fiddlepaddle]

I don't believe those numbers represent the distribution, at least in the US. I've seen MANY more loose Genesis Sonic 2 carts than Sonic.

[Zoyous]

It was a system seller. So just by virtue of that, no, it wouldn't have sold as well if it were a regular retail title and the pack-in was still Altered Beast, because there wouldn't have been as many people with the console. It was a perfect marketing move. As for the diminishing sales of subsequent titles, the series is still going strong and there was obviously just a hugely successful Hollywood movie, so... in spite of some missteps along the way, it's been a generally well-managed IP to still be so popular after 30 years.

[Leeroy ST]

1 minute ago, Zoyous said:

It was a system seller. So just by virtue of that, no, it wouldn't have sold as well if it were a regular retail title and the pack-in was still Altered Beast, because there wouldn't have been as many people with the console. It was a perfect marketing move. As for the diminishing sales of subsequent titles, the series is still going strong and there was obviously just a hugely successful Hollywood movie, so... in spite of some missteps along the way, it's been a generally well-managed IP to still be so popular after 30 years.

You might catch some flak for that well-managed quote lol. 

 

But yeah, for a pack-in Sonic really packed a wallop. I know Altered Beast had some success with over 1 million sold being the pack-in for awhile, but wow, maybe Sega of America had gotten more money from SOJ by the time Sonic came out? It's crazy how many more cartridges and how much more aggressive the advertising was compared to Altered Beast, which still had the Genesis does what nintendon't before Sonic. 

[Tanooki]

It's a tricky one to call, some of those games up there were pack-ins and others were not.  I find it a bit odd Sonic 1 shows so so much more than Sonic 2 as it was a huge pack-in, and at that rate the Genesis was flying compared to when the first came out.  Maybe it's in error one reporting all copies, the other just what sold vs packed in with the console?

 

Either way ignoring that, it's all a downward spiral though pack-in or not.  Sega at the time was playing the mouthy in your face bully with advertising going as far as fabrication to move units over the competition and they made Sonic their equally arrogant and edgy mascot to peddle the 16bit hardware.  But as time rolled along as you're pointing out (and I never thought of it to look before) it basically cratered.  Across one system to go from 15M to just a few years later down to not even 3/4 of one million is traumatically sad.  I think had it just been a first party game they just shoved out with their standard minimalist advertising where it's part of a spread of games blasted in an ad spot on TV or a panel or two in a mixed print ad in a magazine or pack-in cart/system poster it would have sold even worse.

 

I know Sonic fans get kind of defensive of it, and love to point fingers back at Nintendo trying to smoke and mirror up some hypocrisy angle, but ultimately Sonic was largely a one trick pony with very very little diversity in how the levels played or were generally designed, with most usually in the time marveling how different and fun the bonus levels for the emeralds were.  Sonic 1 from the rotating flat room then to Sonic 2 with the scaled faux 3D half pipe was huge.  But if you go from Sonic 2 to 3 (or 3 part 2 Knuckles) very little changes in stage design, mechanics, the dash / spin dash are there, etc.  If your first (or last) played sonic game didn't blow you away wanting more and more, having another come offering up everything about the same with little new going on, it wouldn't appeal for long.  In a way they added so little but some window dressing Sonic is kind of like the EA sports of platform gaming.  Sonic was always about the fast speeds before much else.  Mario could have fell into the same trap, but they were smart about having a largely varied change of abilities for years back in the day, changes in the lands, changes in the enemies despite keeping many familiar roots too and it worked, the sales grew.

[+Black_Tiger]

On 10/13/2020 at 10:58 AM, mr_me said:

The attach rate for sonic 2 is about the same as smb3 on the nes.  Sonic 2 was by far the best selling cartridge on the system not counting pack-ins.  Sonic and Knuckles was tied for third.  A million cartridges is huge for the Sega Genesis. 

 

Not sure what is meant by pack-in marketing.  In those days marketing dollars was needed to sell video games and a strong pack-in helped sell consoles.  I'd agree that being a pack-in should help the sales of sequels.

I got Sonic 2 as a free mail away bonus for buying my second Sega Genesis with Sonic 1 pack-in.

[Leeroy ST]

18 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I know Sonic fans get kind of defensive of it, and love to point fingers back at Nintendo trying to smoke and mirror up some hypocrisy angle, but ultimately Sonic was largely a one trick pony with very very little diversity in how the levels played or were generally designed, with most usually in the time marveling how different and fun the bonus levels for the emeralds were.  Sonic 1 from the rotating flat room then to Sonic 2 with the scaled faux 3D half pipe was huge.  But if you go from Sonic 2 to 3 (or 3 part 2 Knuckles) very little changes in stage design, mechanics, the dash / spin dash are there, etc.  If your first (or last) played sonic game didn't blow you away wanting more and more, having another come offering up everything about the same with little new going on, it wouldn't appeal for long.  In a way they added so little but some window dressing Sonic is kind of like the EA sports of platform gaming.  Sonic was always about the fast speeds before much else.  Mario could have fell into the same trap, but they were smart about having a largely varied change of abilities for years back in the day, changes in the lands, changes in the enemies despite keeping many familiar roots too and it worked, the sales grew.

Well Mario had times was vastly more packed-in than Sonic.

 

I believe you have a point here though, SOA went crazy before Sonic ,but turned it up really high now with a mascot to back their marketing with Sonic 1, and when you keep overhyping games that don't have much in the way of changes then it comes down to what you add in between those entries, and outside a bad pinball game and a weird isometric "3D' game throwing birds through rings, you basically were playing the same game over and over without that much to add, especially if your first game was Sonic 2. Sonic CD had the time element but it wasn't well executed and the level design was poor and slightly random which the game is notorious for. The fact that couldn't move CD units more was as telling as the 57% drop between Sonic 1 and 2.

 

It kind of ran into the Mega Man problem, you had 3 then you added a charge shot in 4 but it was basically the same game and then 5 and 6 did some superficial additions outside the adapter in 6, and then 7 came out and just combined the elements in both those games etc. 

 

It's hard to appeal to a large number of users consistently if you are touting a major advantage to the competition repeatedly, and it's basically a marginal upgrade to what came out before. This was shown in sales and it makes me question the belief that Sonic Xtreme not being cancelled would have done anything for the Saturn. At least Sonic Adventure was after a break in releases but even that didn't shift Dreamcasts in a way the Sonic did for the MD with Sonic 1, not even a 5th. 

 

But even without Xtreme, if Sonic was always as big as projected back then, the Saturn games would have done better. Sonic R didn't workout well even with earlier screens before the game was properly revealed, the excitement wasn't there, Sonic JAM had the popular games from the GEN in a collection on the Saturn, AND a 3D bonus mode still flopped, and Sonic 3D blast the earliest of them, while much better on the Saturn sold more on the Genesis and sold less than 1 mill on each.

 

It's clear with Sonic 1's 15 million that people brought into the initial hype, even altered beast which was bundled and ran with "nintendon't" commercials before Sonic only managed over 1 million copies. Sonic was massive and other games like MK and such helped grow that wave. But with just the next sequel having a 57% drop in sales despite the first games hype and good reviews is not something to ignore, and then ending with a game that was a headliner into the next gen and couldn't even sell 1 million copies, would make any executive of a company scream in horror.

 

Quote

It's a tricky one to call, some of those games up there were pack-ins and others were not.  I find it a bit odd Sonic 1 shows so so much more than Sonic 2 as it was a huge pack-in, and at that rate the Genesis was flying compared to when the first came out.  Maybe it's in error one reporting all copies, the other just what sold vs packed in with the console?

I looked at some old articles, went on gaming forums to see if I can find any japan sales or NPD stuff, and so on, and I think that Sonic 2 was huge but I think the reality is, at the end of the day, Sonic 2's sales were closer to where peoples interest were at the time after the inflated appeal of the first game. The subsequent Sonic sales after Sonic 2 and the poor ability to move CD units with Sonic CD around the same time makes this plausible. 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Tanooki]

Yeah basically I felt the best way to really sum it up without going overkill into the details like you did there some was the EA Sports effect people have harped on about since the 32/64bit 90s era stuff and since.  You get a new system out, hype the crap out of it, and a key title, and from there you try and continue to run the hype wave doing just marginal updates to the original game.  Sonic 1 wouldn't qualify on that, it's unique as it lacks the elements #2 did, but Sonic 2 would fit that mold like when people really went to town on EAs greed on the PS2 era stuff where the early EA sports games looked little more advanced towards the later stuff, adding a new roster, maybe a new token feature, but nothing like where it's obvious they went back to do something large.  Sonic had that.  Sonic 3 was maybe a little more colorful, sounded slightly nicer, had a few newly titled but kind of samey feeling stages, and the other half of that game as Sonic and Knuckles was basically the same +knuckles being playable, another token gimme.  They didn't do anything really huge.  Sonic didn't go to totally new lands, didn't get a pile of new power ups, any new or moderate to largely modified moves, nothing.  It was like they just kept tacking on stages to an existing game, like chapters in a book series or a trilogy of movies where the camera work improves but the players and mechanics are still about the same (think like Indy...Raiders vs Last Crusade years later.)  Sega buried Sonic almost as a one trick pony and rode it so hard, that people just stopped caring so they tried to get new blood in doing weird junk after Advance 1+2 on DC like the black knight, werewolf sonic, that lame Rings waggle mechanic on wii, etc.  They played and sold almost uniformly like crap for so long, once MANIA appeared people were blown away not because it was largely good, but it was largely an attempt to be what Sonic was lost on for so long but also as just a rebirth of the re-hash people missed.

[Zoyous]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

Sega buried Sonic almost as a one trick pony and rode it so hard, that people just stopped caring so they tried to get new blood in doing weird junk after Advance 1+2 on DC like the black knight, werewolf sonic, that lame Rings waggle mechanic on wii, etc.  They played and sold almost uniformly like crap for so long, once MANIA appeared people were blown away not because it was largely good, but it was largely an attempt to be what Sonic was lost on for so long but also as just a rebirth of the re-hash people missed.

Well, it seems they've succeeded in getting in new blood because each entry continues to sell in the 1-3 million range, and as of 2016 the series as a whole had sold 140 million (with over 50 million of that total after 2009). That's selling "almost uniformly like crap" only in the alternate reality of 'angry' Youtubers and disenchanted bloggers. Mania was critically well-received (among the middle-aged contingent) and sold over a million, but its sales weren't notably higher than any of the 21st century 3D entries. Ultimately the series continues to be successful because it continues to appeal to kids, while the older fans sort of divide into various camps who prefer this or that depending on when they got into it, but each camp is served by various entries.

 

What I think will be interesting to see is if the series sees any significant uptick in sales following the success of the recent movie.

[homerhomer]

I don't think Sonic would have been as nearly as popular without the big marketing push.  Sega genesis had been out for like 3 years and I think a lot of people had already played Sega and where ready for the next Nintendo.  But that was just people like me.  There was also a huge demographic that referred to console gaming in general as "Nintendo". Sega had a up hill battle back in the day.

Looking at the Genesis library, there's a lot of awesome games that didn't get that much attention. Games like Beyond Oasis, Rocket Knight Adventures and  Alisa Dragoon.  I don't see why any of these games couldn't have been the killer app for Sega and they are just somewhat unknown.

 

 

 

[high voltage]

Yes

[Leeroy ST]

18 hours ago, Tanooki said:

 It was like they just kept tacking on stages to an existing game, like chapters in a book series or a trilogy of movies where the camera work improves but the players and mechanics are still about the same (think like Indy...Raiders vs Last Crusade years later.)  Sega buried Sonic almost as a one trick pony and rode it so hard, that people just stopped caring

Sonic CD was the biggest issue, it was the stand out title for the overhyped CD add-on yet it basically did nothing new other than be a bit more colorful and having a more impressive bonus stage than 1 and 2. Instead they placed weird stage designs with objects and springs randomly thrown around with a trial mechanic to take you through different versions of the same randomly generated (feeling) levels. It's like those Amiga games that make no or little adjustments to their games and then slap CD audio in and call it a day.

 

Coming off Sonic and Sonic 2 that should have sold or helped sell near 5 million Sega CD's, instead Sega CD sold less than 2.5 million in ~5 years 91-96. Even back in the day that was a headscratcher. It was the headliner with tons of marketing strength behind it and it kind of buzzed out showing in 93 the excitement was drying up.

[Leeroy ST]

17 hours ago, Zoyous said:

Well, it seems they've succeeded in getting in new blood because each entry continues to sell in the 1-3 million range,

Which is false since Sonic Heroes was the last major retail sonic titles to sell 3 million copies or over.

 

Going backwards from now, Sonic Forces flopped in physical and crashed all around, they had to put in with bundles of Mania to save it and Sega still won't talk about it's performance. They gave it away for free digitally.

 

Sonic Mania reach 1 million and that's the last we heard.

 

Sonic Boom the console game and the portable game TOGETHER sold less than 700k

 

Sonic Lost World sold around 700k on the Wii U AND 3DS together, and looking at the later PC release had 109k as of 2016.

 

So it's been years since a high selling Sonic game. 

 

The closest selling Sonic game to Sonic Heroes over 3 million is Sonic Unleashed, which arguably saved the franchise after the two games before it despite it's bad reviews, at 2.4 million.

 

But for the last 7 years Sonic has been selling poorly, don't forget Forces released on 3 consoles and PC just like Heroes did in 2003, with a mobile game and a marketing campaign to gauge interest, and people didn't buy it. 

 

Honestly it seems what's left is a dedicated fanbase that won't let go that may grow or shrink between a range.

 

17 hours ago, Zoyous said:

as of 2016 the series as a whole had sold 140 million

This doesn't really mean anything, especially since most of that was earlier and Sonic had a high output of game releases for years after 1999. Several of those games had big budgets for a Sonic game only to sell modestly or poorly which doesn't help the bottom line and that's why we've seen less output the last 7 years.

 

Does better than Mega Man though which has like double the output overall and only sold like 3 million. There will always be a dedicated fanbase for Sonic but I don't think at this point he can appeal to more players. It's been 17 years since a game sold 3 million copies, just saying.

[Leeroy ST]

12 hours ago, homerhomer said:

I don't think Sonic would have been as nearly as popular without the big marketing push.  Sega genesis had been out for like 3 years and I think a lot of people had already played Sega and where ready for the next Nintendo.  

Looking at the Genesis library, there's a lot of awesome games that didn't get that much attention. Games like Beyond Oasis, Rocket Knight Adventures and  Alisa Dragoon.  I don't see why any of these games couldn't have been the killer app for Sega and they are just somewhat unknown.

 

Thing about it is Altered Beast was the pack-in before and sold over 1 million and that was successful because Sega was fighting an uphill battle since third party policies with the NES made it hard for Atari or Sega to sell with the previous round of consoles and Sega was shedding Tonka and pushing the Genesis itself, and convincing retailers to stock it. 

 

But then NOA got Sonic and other deals like MK and everything blew up. I think the sales of the first Sonic game was due to absorbing nearly all of that hype that blew the Genesis up in NA and later other places.

 

However, the game you mentioned like Rocket Knight, Alisa Dragoon, those released in 1993 and 1992 so it would have been much too late for those to be a replacement. 

[Tanooki]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Sonic CD was the biggest issue, it was the stand out title for the overhyped CD add-on yet it basically did nothing new other than be a bit more colorful and having a more impressive bonus stage than 1 and 2. Instead they placed weird stage designs with objects and springs randomly thrown around with a trial mechanic to take you through different versions of the same randomly generated (feeling) levels. It's like those Amiga games that make no or little adjustments to their games and then slap CD audio in and call it a day.

 

Coming off Sonic and Sonic 2 that should have sold or helped sell near 5 million Sega CD's, instead Sega CD sold less than 2.5 million in ~5 years 91-96. Even back in the day that was a headscratcher. It was the headliner with tons of marketing strength behind it and it kind of buzzed out showing in 93 the excitement was drying up.

Honestly the more I think about it, the more I feel that Sega is kind of a repeat offender as far as franchises go in a way.  They mostly are a one trick pony developer and the times they try and extend something into sequels, usually they'll get away with 1, 2 tops, and then it's into the toilet as far as further interest.  Yes it's a blanket statement, and yes I suppose you could make a few rarer exceptions like the Shining series but that one at least smartly diversified beyond just strategy RPG into even a couple of really well made Diablo clones on GBA, and then Phantasy Star.  But Sonic went from great to dumpster fire with just some well spread out glimmers of decency at best.  I for one liked Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, but the games after, nope, including Mania which borderline annoyed and bored me to death so I dumped it (had it on Switch.)  Maybe they're best at large story driven stuff, at least for consistently pumping out stuff that lasts for quality fun.

[Tanooki]

19 hours ago, Zoyous said:

Well, it seems they've succeeded in getting in new blood because each entry continues to sell in the 1-3 million range, and as of 2016 the series as a whole had sold 140 million (with over 50 million of that total after 2009). That's selling "almost uniformly like crap" only in the alternate reality of 'angry' Youtubers and disenchanted bloggers. Mania was critically well-received (among the middle-aged contingent) and sold over a million, but its sales weren't notably higher than any of the 21st century 3D entries. Ultimately the series continues to be successful because it continues to appeal to kids, while the older fans sort of divide into various camps who prefer this or that depending on when they got into it, but each camp is served by various entries.

 

What I think will be interesting to see is if the series sees any significant uptick in sales following the success of the recent movie.

Well yeah, that should be enough expected.  More and more enter the market as kids, teens, adults...they'll get wow'd maybe once or twice, (not being snotty but sounding like it) without knowing better of what's in their past, and then like other decades worth of generations they get spent and move.  As long as they pump them out with a muted budget knowing they can find another million or so generation of buyers along with some of those being those hoping for a return to greatness they can keep pumping them out.

[Zoyous]

8 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Honestly it seems what's left is a dedicated fanbase that won't let go that may grow or shrink between a range.

Oh yeah, now I can see what a big problem that is! Listen, I'm not trying to distort the facts, I wrote 1-3 million meaning 'between 1 and 3 million.' Which is true for most entries in the series, as I said. Sure, there have been some that have sold less. On the other hand, the first few Mario & Sonic Olympics spinoffs sold way more. Series heat up, series cool off. But to say that as a whole the series selling 140 million means nothing? In what way? It means it's one of the 20 best selling video game series of all time.

 

5 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Honestly the more I think about it, the more I feel that Sega is kind of a repeat offender as far as franchises go in a way.  They mostly are a one trick pony developer and the times they try and extend something into sequels, usually they'll get away with 1, 2 tops, and then it's into the toilet as far as further interest.  Yes it's a blanket statement, and yes I suppose you could make a few rarer exceptions like the Shining series but that one at least smartly diversified beyond just strategy RPG into even a couple of really well made Diablo clones on GBA, and then Phantasy Star.  But Sonic went from great to dumpster fire with just some well spread out glimmers of decency at best.  I for one liked Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, but the games after, nope, including Mania which borderline annoyed and bored me to death so I dumped it (had it on Switch.)  Maybe they're best at large story driven stuff, at least for consistently pumping out stuff that lasts for quality fun.

A one trick pony developer? Sega must have one of the most diverse range of IPs of any developer. Obviously the Yakuza series has been steadily building up steam with something like 8 main entries, 3 spinoffs that take place in alternate realities, remakes and remasters, expanding from PS exclusive to multiplatform along the way. Puyo Puyo continuing through the years with the Tetris crossovers most recently. Hatsune Miku, I don't even understand what it is exactly and it's rolling on. Valkyria Chronicles is onto its fourth game, with a couple of spinoffs. Beyond those series, Sega Europe has really expanded into multiple ongoing strategy series (don't even start with weird imaginary rules about what's "real" Sega and what's not... if it's got a Sega logo on it, it's a Sega game). If anything, they let their older IP go dormant too much.

 

Anyway, as you can tell, I am a Sega fan ...but ironically I'm not that into Sonic. I just periodically see these types of topics come up where it's like, let's try and prove that this incredibly successful thing isn't really that successful or doesn't actually deserve its status. So I have to ask you guys, where did the axe to grind originate? Did Sega personally humiliate you with their funny Genesis advertisements, or burn your dad's retail store with the early Saturn launch?

[Leeroy ST]

12 hours ago, Zoyous said:

Oh yeah, now I can see what a big problem that is! Listen, I'm not trying to distort the facts, I wrote 1-3 million meaning 'between 1 and 3 million.' Which is true for most entries in the series, as I said. Sure, there have been some that have sold less. On the other hand, the first few Mario & Sonic Olympics spinoffs sold way more. Series heat up, series cool off. But to say that as a whole the series selling 140 million means nothing? In what way? It means it's one of the 20 best selling video game series of all time.

Because it doesn't. Spamming releases with decent figures is frontloaded to the early 3rd of Sonics life and had dramatically dropped the other 2 thirds. Also "most entries" are you talking in general? Because that's a big no. If you mean main entries, again just looking at the last 7 years shows that's not the case, you are using a paper number of 140 million to pretend the series still sells like it did in the 90's which doesn't make sense. Sonic Forces having Sonic Heroes Multiplat release across 4 platforms and not even selling maybe 5-6% of its sales are realistic factors you need to analyse to get a better picture of what's happening with the franchise just as an example. 

 

12 hours ago, Zoyous said:

 

 

A one trick pony developer? Sega must have one of the most diverse range of IPs of any developer. Obviously the Yakuza series has been steadily building up steam with something like 8 main entries, 3 spinoffs that take place in alternate realities, remakes and remasters, expanding from PS exclusive to multiplatform along the way. Puyo Puyo continuing through the years with the Tetris crossovers most recently. Hatsune Miku, I don't even understand what it is exactly and it's rolling on. Valkyria Chronicles is onto its fourth game, with a couple of spinoffs.

The fact you are using a fad like Hatsune Miku is jarring. A japan only J-pop game that's best selling title was the PSP miku diva 2nd at 434k.

 

It's most recent games are the 2020 Switch game, which sold only 78k, 2 PS4 games some years ago with one selling less than 50k and one selling less than 20k, The latest Vita game sold 105k but the latest 3DS game sold 67k. These aren't good numbers compared to where the series was during the PSP days. 

 

Valkyria Chronicles is another odd series to being up, another series that sold best in Japan:

 

VC1 242k

VC2 178k

VC3 170k

VC Remastered 41k

VRevolution 92k (Vita+PS4)

VC4 74k (SWI+PS4)

 

Yakuza has been stagnant for awhile, it used to sell in between 600k-900k then it dipped to 500k's, and now it's been dipping below 100k to hitting 200k+ up and down depending on the game for the last ~6 years (Yakuza 6 being an exception). Even spin offs used to do 350-400k+.

 

The issue is that Sega has a longevity problem and an audience expansion issue. They have a game series where the first or 2nd (or both) games bring in a lot of attention and they the series goes on a spiraling decline lacking any sort of change in strategy or adding elements to attract new consumers while being held up by a base of fans. This has happened with many of Sega's series. Too many.

 

This even happened with B-tier side series like Virtual-on.

 

IN some cases some of the series are only saved with a slightly growing interest to a niche audience in the west which is only covering the losses from parts of the Japanese audience leaving. We have seen that with Yakuza for example. Even then it's not going to have enough to return near the highs it once knew let alone hit it. 

 

Sonic has had that problem for years, there's a reason why Sonic Heroes was the last best selling Sonic game in 17 years and before that the best selling game was Sonic 2. It's because after DC died and some new and old Sega fans split across 3 consoles, that Sonic game was promoted as a major release in all 3, so you had the interested new fans and the old nostalgia fans not long after Segas console demise come in and buy the game, a lot of the Sonic Heroes audience however moved on permanently.

 

Sonic Unleashed was closest to the number but it had the benefit of being seen and advertised as a breath of fresh air from declining sales of poorly fan received games including the entry right before it that was launched completely broken (Sonic 2006) and the new boost system, the changes to the stages, and again, the marketing, made a lot of people, thought not enough, believe it was return, until they played it and deal with the other "half" of the game. That novelty has also worn off (especially since they doubled down on part of it with Sonic Colors).

 

Quote

 I just periodically see these types of topics come up where it's like, let's try and prove that this incredibly successful thing isn't really that successful

 

 

The problem is is not incredibly successful. It was, but if you are comparing it to other franchises of other companies or other studios within SEGA it's not. Segas last quarterly report in Aug (ending at the end of June) for example had all active sonic games all together sell 800k, Football manager was above it, Persona was above it, and Total War was number 1. Also Sega reported a loss overall regardless of the top 3 series sales.

 

 

 

One could say they are still making money off these sales, but I guess it depends on what your definition of success is. Being below even your sub-prime years ago, and not making enough money to NOT post a loss doesn't seem like success to me. 

 

It's not an Attack on Sega, But when you have almost all your series (from japan) having nearly the same trajectories of decline for years and years without much in the way to change things up or expand their audience, that's a pretty big problem.

 

 

[Leeroy ST]

19 hours ago, Tanooki said:

As long as they pump them out with a muted budget knowing they can find another million or so generation of buyers along with some of those being those hoping for a return to greatness they can keep pumping them out.

Although in Segas case with it's shaky finances that may not be the case for long, but yes. In fact that's what Sonic Boom was all about, using that cartoon and a game tied into it to try and attract a new audience to a brand with a dwindling base, although that may not have worked as well as they hoped. However, the movie that just came out may do something although by the time they put out a game the movie may be old news.

 

19 hours ago, Tanooki said:

They mostly are a one trick pony developer and the times they try and extend something into sequels, usually they'll get away with 1, 2 tops, and then it's into the toilet as far as further interest.  Yes it's a blanket statement, and yes I suppose you could make a few rarer exceptions like the Shining series but that one at least smartly diversified beyond just strategy RPG into even a couple of really well made Diablo clones on GBA, and then Phantasy Star.  But Sonic went from great to dumpster fire with just some well spread out glimmers of decency at best.  I for one liked Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, but the games after, nope, including Mania which borderline annoyed and bored me to death so I dumped it (had it on Switch.)  Maybe they're best at large story driven stuff, at least for consistently pumping out stuff that lasts for quality fun.

The bold is a valid point

 

Sonic

Yakuza

Virtual-on

Virtua Fighter

Virtua Cop

House of the Dead

Puyo Puyo

Shinobi

miku

Initial D

 

Are just some example of franchises that were big earlier on, or in some cases big in the first or second (or both) titles and then all went on to decline. It's pretty consistent too. 

 

Brought companies like the western end with series like Total War and others are exceptions to this rule as it seems to mostly impact primarily the japanese side, even for world wide releases.

 

You also bring up a good point with Sonic Mania, it's one of the best selling Sonics in many years, but it needed a PLUS version and had to heavily market itself to lapsed Sonic fans through Nostalgia (again) which Sega was already doing since Generations and even did with Forces bringing back old levels. But this time since it's 2D it brought back those nostalgic for the Genesis games, and even then it hasn't sold 2 million yet after all this time. 

 

I just think people moves on.

[Zoyous]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

One could say they are still making money off these sales, but I guess it depends on what your definition of success is.

Yeah, in the business world, that would about sum up success. Are you one of these guys who has been saying Sega is about to go out of business for the past 20 years?

[Leeroy ST]

2 hours ago, Zoyous said:

Yeah, in the business world, that would about sum up success. Are you one of these guys who has been saying Sega is about to go out of business for the past 20 years?

Not if the business keeps posting losses. Which you decided to conveniently ignore, then Segwayed to some snide comment about "are you one of the guys" ignoring they factually posted losses. 

 

I get it you like Sega but your definition of "success" if Sega went by it would bankrupt them. They already had a restructure and are putting heavier focus on the western front while trying to see if anything from Japan sells over seas to try and get things back on course.

 

People were saying what you were back in 2000 to, this isn't about hating Sega it's just they make similar mistakes over and over with their top selling games and as they decline they are basically up and down until Sega shelves the series or it doesn't expand the audience and then the profits die.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Leeroy ST

[Zoyous]

I've followed Sega Sammy Holdings stock for quite a long time, they've been up and down from quarter to quarter in the software/entertainment side, sometimes posting losses and other times posting profits. Now as for me, Sega probably would go bankrupt if I was calling the shots... there would be a blaze of fan-service glory and then it would be lights out. Their actual moves, like acquiring Atlus, Sports Interactive and Creative Assembly have been very savvy.

 

But the reason why I ask you what your beef is, is that you seem to have several threads throughout the forums basically trying to say isn't Atari actually more successful and doesn't this or that Atari system have better games than Sega? And this thread is the topper... "If Sega didn't make this successful move, would they have been less successful?" ? So what's the fixation? I love Atari, too, but in the year 2020 it's nothing but a logo getting put on Raspberry Pi cases and such, controlled by a holding company. That's a fate that Sega has avoided. If this is some kind of fanboy battle, then that's checkmate. You can keep the Sega deathwatch going another 20 years. But I don't want to fanboy battle... I happen to love Atari and Atari Games. Now Nintendo on the other hand, if they hadn't gotten away with their illegal activities in the 80s would not be nearly as successful these days. Over to you, Tanooki.

[Tanooki]

20 hours ago, Zoyous said:

A one trick pony developer? Sega must have one of the most diverse range of IPs of any developer. Obviously the Yakuza series has been steadily building up steam with something like 8 main entries, 3 spinoffs that take place in alternate realities, remakes and remasters, expanding from PS exclusive to multiplatform along the way. Puyo Puyo continuing through the years with the Tetris crossovers most recently. Hatsune Miku, I don't even understand what it is exactly and it's rolling on. Valkyria Chronicles is onto its fourth game, with a couple of spinoffs. Beyond those series, Sega Europe has really expanded into multiple ongoing strategy series (don't even start with weird imaginary rules about what's "real" Sega and what's not... if it's got a Sega logo on it, it's a Sega game). If anything, they let their older IP go dormant too much.

 

Anyway, as you can tell, I am a Sega fan ...but ironically I'm not that into Sonic. I just periodically see these types of topics come up where it's like, let's try and prove that this incredibly successful thing isn't really that successful or doesn't actually deserve its status. So I have to ask you guys, where did the axe to grind originate? Did Sega personally humiliate you with their funny Genesis advertisements, or burn your dad's retail store with the early Saturn launch?

Yeah on a IP to IP basis they act like one, not that they actually ARE one though as a company.  They seem to really nail down a game, maybe two for a franchise on most of their IP and then it's like they fall off a cliff.  So that's why i said one trick pony as like you get in the music industry something like Jenny 867-5309, that's all that dude is really known for who sang that, and purposefully I'm not saying who to drive that home.   They do have a select few that really do hit a consistent note, but most, they just crumble which is sad.  I didn't say all their stuff, just most of their IP over decades of work going back to the 80s, so so few seem to maintain a consistent quality and sales, or increase, you'll get a game or two, then off the cliff like a lemming.  Yet you're right, you do have their newer stuff like Yakuza and Valkyria made in the 21st century that seem to keep on chugging dodging that slide.


As far as their US based ads go sure I'll take the bait probably so you can feel like it's self fulfilling prophecy.  Humiliate?  Never had that happen, nor did I Feel it watching the ads.  Honestly, you know what they did?  Even as an early teenager when it started, it pissed me off.  Sure a part of it was the fact I was using Nintendo product, but honestly, even larger companies who lie or largely stretch the truth, insulting the consumers intelligence and choices, so they can sell a product gets to me.  That whole campaign for years with originally Nintendon't into mocking the SNES for having no games or somehow how Sonic vs Mario Kart was fair to show how crappy and slow SNES was with a broken cart belching smoke to drive it home the point.  Because of that, I didn't directly throw any money at Sega for their products until the mid/later 90s when I eventually got a Nomad and started buying a few games/supplies off their web sales site then.  I did have earlier a Genesis 3 and also a Game Gear, second hand, and the games were too, I wasn't going to give them shit.  I have the same attitude with Pepsi due to their lying immature anti-Coke ads trying to dupe people into their chem-wash swill they call cola, hell I still won't drink a pepsi.  The only console I ever gave Sega money for, Dreamcast, a couple weeks after it came out in late September.  I had the same attitude with the dirt Sony flung, so I didn't even have a PS1 or PS2 until 2001.  Point is, it's not anti-Sega, it's anti-lying asshole to sell product, it's dishonorable.

 

I for one do like Sega, and enjoy their games more than I do not.  Despite my anti-Genesis sentiment in the 90s due to their rotten behavior, I never wrote them off, nor did it stop me from playing their arcade games or buying their other stuff second hand either.  I still buy their stuff, the other night I grabbed up some steam sales of theirs including their one day offers, both Sonic Adventures, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, as they're solid fun.  My brother used to work for them even during the Sega Sammy period until they hit a hard time and he had to move to the next opportunity.  They are a good company and have lots of nice stuff, enough variety to find a few things to like.  I'm not sure what this is all about a Sega deathwatch, but if you think he's wanting that, that's fine, but I don't.