Between the Sega 32X and Atari Jaguar, which do you feel had the better game library and why?

[Leeroy ST]

This isn't really a graphics thread, plus on AA it seems there's a consensus the Jaguar is more powerful (though it may have taken some time for the games to show this to come out on the latter) but rather about the game libraries of both. Here we are focusing on Subjective gameplay and fun factor. 

 

 

These are two "systems" that weren't on the market that long. Both came out in 1993, though Sega 32x OFFICIALLY released in 1994 (and I guess that applies to the Jaguar as well since 1993 was a test year and didn't fully release until 1994 either) and even share a few titles. They both were discontinued the same year with iirc the Jaguar ending a bit later of the two.

 

So you have several similarities, including rather small gaming libraries, early 3D game design, and low sales figures although between the two they are in the 32X's favor, but it was an add-on for the popular Genesis so this isn't too surprising.

 

The question is for those who have played or own/ed both, which library do you think is better?

 

On the Atari Jaguar you have titles like:

 

1. AVP
2. Iron Soldier
3. Iron Soldier 2
4. Tempest
5. Doom
6. Fight for Life
7. Rayman
8. NBA Jam TE
9. Super Burnout
10. Raiden
11. BattleMorph
12. World Tour Racing
13. Club Drive
14. Woldenstein 3D
15. Missle Command 3D
16. Pitfall the Mayan Adventure
17. Primal Rage
18. Dragon Bruce Lee
19. Atari Karts
20. I-War
21. Cannon Fodder
22. Hyper Force
23. Ultra Vortek

 

On the other hand on the Sega 32X you have titles like:

 

1. Virtua Fighter
2. Mortal Kombat 2
3. T-Mek
4. Cosmic Carnage
5. After Burner
6. Doom
7. Primal Rage
8. Pitfall the Mayan Adventure
9. Space Harrier
10. Star Wars Arcade (non-vector)
11. Virtua Racing
12. Shadow Squadron 
13. Blackthrone
14. Tempo
15. Knuckles Chaotix
16. WWF Arcade
17. NBA Jam TE
18. Spiderman web of Fire
19. Zaxxon 2000
20. Kolibri
21. Toughman Contest
22. Darxide
23. Metal Head

 

 

Now of course these aren't all the games on either system but they represent a decent chunk of their libraries, and gives you a pretty good representation of what their libraries are like. As you can see both have some cross-over titles that happen to have been released on both.

 

As two early 3D gaming systems that happened to "technically" release the same year with small libraries and short shelf lives, I was wondering which of the two people prefer and why? Vote in the poll above and add a post on your thoughts on which you think had the better subjective game selection.

 

Note again this isn't really about graphics though you could bring it up if it impacts your opinion on the games within either library. 

 

 

 

 

As for me, it's tough I'll have to think about it. Both have game types that are underrepresented on the other, and both have several disappointments. I am actually currently replaying several titles I own for both to get an idea of which really hit home for me which is why I made this thread to see how other people feel.

 

 

[Tales from the Game Room]

I'll bite!  In my opinion, I'm siding with the Sega 32x.  Sure, there were many games which were just Genesis upgrades with more colors, and all of the Sega 32x CD games were just 32 bit upgrades for all of the Sega CD games.  But, those games which were original titles released for the 32x only were great.  I am a personal fan of Doom, Virtual Racing Deluxe, Metal Head, Knuckles' Chaotix, Tempo, and T-Mek. 

 

The Jaguar had less games released, and many of those games were disappointments, such as Air Cars, Cub Drive, and Ultra Vortex. 

The one thing which the Jaguar has, that I really hope to see with the Sega 32x, is a homebrew base, where unfinished games are finished and released, and homebrew games make their way to CIB releases.  We already have Wolfenstein, Rick Dangerous, and I am hearing Ultimate Doom too.  It would be great to see this underrated system get that boost as well.

[+jgkspsx]

I'm surprised this poll is so lopsided in favor of the 32X here, of all places. I am a long-time 32X fan and only recently got a Jaguar. I think the Jaguar is the more compelling and worthwhile system, even if they are both my favorite misfits, and despite the weird similarities in their libraries (great mech games, great space shooters, hilariously inept dirtbike games, Pitfall, NBA Jam, Primal Rage, Doom). Here's my case.

 

Companies / Historical Significance

 

The 32X was an add-on for the Genesis, one of the world-beating breakout successes of its generation. Really, the Genesis was the beginning and the end of Sega's success. The Sega CD and the 32X were signs of desperation to keep the money machine going, and fear that followups like the Saturn wouldn't pan out. I would argue that the Sega CD and the Saturn did more to hurt consumer confidence in Sega than the 32X did, even if the 32X didn't help.

 

The Jaguar was the last gasp of a dying company, the company that really brought programmable video games into the home en masse. Atari's bloodied corpse has been dragged through the halls of history by copyright trolls ever since, but the Jaguar was the last time the world at large actually believed it. (Admittedly, the Jaguar, like the Lynx before it, was an outsourced effort, and few of the great names of Atari's golden age were still around by the time the Jag came out.

 

Beyond that, the Jaguar was a standalone system with some really forward-looking ideas like ubiquitous solid state save memory and network play, a much more successful gambit than what the Xplay or the Sega Channel could offer over dial-up internet, and exactly what the next two generations of home console hardware supported. The 32X was not marketed as something that was going to last forever - it pretty much WAS marketed, at the time, as a short term way to play cutting edge games until your parents bought you a real next-gen system.

 

Advantage: Jaguar.

 

System hardware

 

Man, do I love the Tower of Power, but it is really space-inefficient. In order to play the whole 32X library on original hardware, you need a lot of space in your entertainment center. The Jaguar + CD is very similar in footprint to the 32X + Genesis, but it requires one fewer power adapter. (Assuming you're not using modern 2 in 1/3 in 1 adapters, which you absolutely should be unless you like wasting money heating up transformer coils!)

 

Aesthetically, I love both systems and both cartridge designs. (Except for the lack of a top label for both, but that's what I have aftermarket stickers for.) But the Jaguar cartridge handle is the weirdest thing and it's totally charming, so I guess I'm giving it the edge.

 

Advantage: Jaguar (barely)

 

Controllers

 

I like the Jaguar controller, but the Genesis 6-button is one of my favorites ever. If more Jaguar games were designed with the Pro controller in mind that might change my opinion.

 

Advantage: 32X.

 

Visual aesthetics

 

Consoles usually have a general feel or certain tells that make games for them look like games for them. Show me a screenshot of a Game Gear game, a Genesis game, a 2600 game, an Intellivision game, a Playstation game, or a Saturn game, and I'll probably be able to guess the game (assuming it's not a multi-platform game, and sometimes even then). The Jaguar kind of has that, although maybe not in a great way. Artists tended to use the large color space for queasy intermediate shades that look... creepy. Think about the skies in Atari Karts, the backgrounds in Kasumi Ninja, the 2000 mode of Defender 2000, the shading of environments in Missile Command 3D and Cybermorph, even the color palette of Rayman. Not everything fits that mold - games like Tempest 2000 and I-War largely avoid it, although the bacon special stages of Tempest ARE very creepy.

 

The 32X doesn't really have any similar aesthetic theme. For games that have polygonal graphics, their characteristics are super low-poly geometry. For games that have big raster graphics, like Primal Rage and Doom, it's a whole lot of dithering.

 

Advantage (?): Jaguar.

 

Sound and music

 

Both consoles are sort of at a disadvantage here. They're both notable more for their lacks than their proficiency. Doom's music is laughably tinny on 32X, and absent entirely on Jaguar. NBA Jam's music is really middling on the 32X, almost game.com levels of single-channel simplicity; on the Jaguar it's actually kind of anxious and creepy. Afterburner is missing the melody lines from its musical compositions (even though they're still awesome). Many games from both systems lack music during gameplay. Sometimes that works, but sometimes it doesn't. The creepiness of Jaguar aesthetics carries through to music here - the music for most of Atari Karts sounds like it's from a documentary about serial killers. *shudders*

 

Neither really stands out for a particular style of music the way the Genesis and the SNES and the Turbografx and even the Sega CD and the Game Gear do. In that sense they are true transitional systems. They both have some terrific music that does take full advantage of their hardware: think Space Harrier, Virtua Racing Deluxe, or Star Trek for the 32X, or Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar. It just clearly wasn't a major focus.

 

Advantage: Draw.

 

Original library size / Distribution / Accessibility

 

The 32X had 34 cartridge games, half of which were only released in North America (also, they were region locked):
 

• After Burner Complete
• BC Racers (NA only)
• Blackthorne (NA only)
• Brutal Unleashed: Above the Claw (NA only)
• Cosmic Carnage
• Darxide (EU only)
• Doom
• FIFA Soccer 96 (EU only)
• Golf Magazine: 36 Great Holes Starring Fred Couples
• Kolibri (NA/EU)
• Knuckles' Chaotix
• Metal Head
• Mortal Kombat II
• Motocross Championship (NA/EU)
• NBA Jam Tournament Edition
• NFL Quarterback Club
• Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure (NA only)
• Primal Rage (NA only)
• RBI Baseball '95 (NA only)
• Sangokushi IV (JP only)
• Space Harrier
• Spider-Man: Web of Fire (NA only)
• Star Trek: Starfleet Academy Starship Bridge Simulator (NA only)
• Star Wars Arcade
• Shadow Squadron / Stellar Assault
• T-MEK (NA/EU)
• Tempo (NA/JP)
• Toughman Contest (NA/EU)
• Virtua Fighter
• Virtua Racing Deluxe
• World Series Baseball Starring Deion Sanders (NA only)
• WWF Raw
• WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game (NA only)
• Zaxxon's Motherbase 2000 / Motherbase / Parasquad 

And 6 CD games, of which one was NA only and the other was BR only:
 

• Corpse Killer (NA/EU)
• Fahrenheit (NA only)
• Night Trap (NA/EU)
• Slam City with Scotty Pippen (NA/EU)
• Supreme Warrior (NA/EU)
• Surgical Strike (BR only)

The Jaguar had 50 cartridge games, all of which came out in Europe and North America and most of which were available in Japan (also, no region lock):
 

• AirCars (Not JP)
• Alien vs Predator
• Atari Karts (Not JP)
• Attack of the Mutant Penguins (Not JP)
• Breakout 2000 (Not JP)
• Brutal Sports Football
• Bubsy in Fractured Furry Tales
• Cannon Fodder
• Checkered Flag
• Club Drive
• Cybermorph
• Defender 2000 (Not JP)
• Doom
• Double Dragon V: The Shadow Falls
• Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story
• Evolution: Dino Dudes
• Fever Pitch Soccer (Not JP)
• Fight For Life (Not JP)
• Flashback: The Quest for Identity (Not JP)
• FlipOut! (Not JP)
• Hover Strike
• I-War (Not JP)
• International Sensible Soccer
• Iron Soldier
• Iron Soldier 2 (Not JP)
• Kasumi Ninja
• Missile Command 3D (Not JP)
• NBA Jam: Tournament Edition (Not JP)
• Pinball Fantasies
• Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure (Not JP)
• Power Drive Rally
• Raiden
• Rayman
• Ruiner Pinball (Not JP)
• Super Burnout
• Supercross 3D (Not JP)
• Syndicate
• Tempest 2000
• Theme Park
• Towers II: Plight of the Stargazer (Not JP)
• Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy
• Troy Aikman NFL Football
• Ultra Vortek (Not JP)
• Val d'Isère Skiing and Snowboarding
• White Men Can't Jump (Not JP)
• Wolfenstein 3D
• Worms (Not JP)
• Zero 5 (Not JP)
• Zool 2
• Zoop (Not JP)
   

And 13 CD games, all of which were available in US and EU:
 

• Baldies
• Battlemorph
• Blue Lightning
• Brain Dead 13
• Dragon's Lair
• Highlander: The Last of the MacLeods
• Hover Strike: Unconquered Lands
• Iron Soldier 2
• Myst
• Primal Rage
• Space Ace
• Vid Grid
• World Tour Racing
   

The Jaguar had more cartridge games and more CD games. The games were manufactured in larger numbers, distributed more widely (albeit many through mail order only) and were not region locked. There are no stupid-expensive Jaguar games except homebrew/post-life releases, and most of those are still in print. The Jaguar had more games and any Jaguar/CD owner can play any of them.

 

Advantage: Jaguar

 

Genres represented

 

Both libraries represent a surprisingly wide range of genres given the small number of cartridges. Let's go through them one by one:

 

Action-adventure

32X: Blackthorne

Jaguar: Flashback

 

Blackthorne is exclusive to the 32X, Flashback is everywhere and had been on the Genesis for years at this point. If you include Hyperforce and Another World it's more even, but Another World/Out of this World is everywhere and better on the Sega CD two-pack. Blackthorne is really a remarkable game and historically significant due to the Warcraft tie-in. Advantage: 32X.

 

Adventure

Jaguar: Highlander, Myst

 

Star Trek is the only thing in this general category on the 32X. Plus if you add in Robinson's Requiem it's even more lopsided. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Arcade (general)
Jaguar: Breakout 2000, Missile Command 3D

 

32X has nothing. If you include all the afterlife games, like Impulse X, the Atari ST ports, and so on, it gets more and more lopsided. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Dungeon crawler

Jaguar: Towers II

 

32X has nothing. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Fighting

32X: Brutal Unleashed: Above the Claw, Cosmic Carnage, Mortal Kombat II, Primal Rage, Virtua Fighter

Jaguar: Double Dragon V, Dragon, Fight for Life, Kasumi Ninja, Primal Rage, Ultra Vortek

 

About even in quantity, but not in quality. I haven't played Jaguar Primal Rage, but it's pretty obvious that between MK2 and Virtual Fighter alone 32X takes the crown. Also, Cosmic Carnage is a lot more fun and interesting than you've been given to understand, and it's at least as good as Ultra Vortek or Kasumi Ninja. I do like the Jaguar port of Dragon, too. Advantage: 32X.

 

Flying Shooters
32X: After Burner Complete, Darxide, Space Harrier, Star Wars Arcade, Shadow Squadron / Stellar Assault

Jaguar: Battlemorph, Blue Lightning, Cybermorph

 

This is a tough one, but I would go with 32X. If you include Battlesphere and Skyhammer it's not very close. Darxide is like Battlesphere but slower and smaller. (Battlesphere is much better for network play, obviously.) Advantage: 32X.

 

FMV
32X: Corpse Killer, Fahrenheit, Night Trap, Slam City, Supreme Warrior, Surgical Strike

Jaguar: Brain Dead 13, Dragon's Lair, Space Ace

 

Brother, if you like FMV games, the Sega CD and the 32X are your huckleberry. I don't have a Jaguar CD, but Brain Dead 13 looks like the most entertaining of any of these. Advantage (?): 32X.

 

FPS
32X: Doom

Jaguar: Alien vs Predator, Doom, Wolfenstein 3D

 

I played through the first half of Doom on both systems side by side last night, and the 32X game is so laughably low res it's not even funny. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Hovercraft/Mech Shooters

32X: Metal Head, T-MEK

Jaguar: AirCars, Hover Strike, Hover Strike: Unconquered Lands, I-War, Iron Soldier, Iron Soldier 2

 

Both systems are very compelling if you like these games, but the Jaguar's games have a slight edge in quantity and quality. AirCars is the only vaguely missable game in this list, and I still like it a lot. If you like this genre as much as I do, you need both systems. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Platformer
32X: Knuckles Chaotix, Pitfall, Spider-Man: Web of Fire, Tempo

Jaguar: Bubsy in Fractured Furry Tales, Pitfall, Rayman, Zool 2

 

Another even match. Pitfall is better on the Jag (although it's probably best on the Sega CD). Knuckles is more interesting than anything on the Jag, Spider-man has nothing comparable on the Jag, Tempo and Rayman are about equal in greatness, but Rayman is more significant. Advantage: Draw

 

Pinball

Jaguar: Pinball Fantasies, Ruiner Pinball

 

32X has nothing. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Puzzle

Jaguar: Evolution: Dino Dudes, FlipOut!, Vid Grid, Zoop

 

32X has nothing. Admittedly, Dino Dudes was on the Genesis as The Humans, and Zoop was on everything. Throw in Loopz and homebrew and the Jaguar pulls away, as long as you exclude all of the great puzzle games on Genesis. Also, Vid Grid looks really cool if simple. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Racing / Driving
32X: BC Racers, Motocross Championship, Virtua Racing Deluxe

Jaguar: Atari Karts, Checkered Flag, Club Drive, Power Drive Rally, Super Burnout, Supercross 3D, Val d'Isère Skiing and Snowboarding, World Tour Racing

 

This is tough. Virtua Racing Deluxe is the best version of Virtua Racing, period, and one of the best reasons to own a 32X. But there are tragically no super scaler games on the 32X, nor any isometric racers. BC Racers is nothing to write home about. Both motorcycle racing games are hilariously ugly and clumsy, and I enjoy both of them too much. Atari Karts is a much better game than the Road Rash-meets-Mario Kart BC Racers, which is poorly tuned and only marginally better than the Sega CD release. But Power Drive Rally, Super Burnout, and Val d'Isere win this one for the Jaguar - if you like super scaler and isometric racers, they are reasons to own the system. And that's not even including Stunt Car Racer. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Real-time strategy
Jaguar: Attack of the Mutant Penguins, Baldies, Cannon Fodder, Syndicate, Theme Park

 

32X has nothing. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Turn-based strategy
32X: Sangokushi IV

Jaguar: Worms

 

I can't read Japanese, and nobody is interested in translating an obscure title in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms series. The main reason Sangokushi was released on the 32X was the higher resolution for text, it appears. No, these games aren't remotely comparable, but I've written enough already. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Shmups / Arcade shooters
32X: Kolibri, Zaxxon's Motherbase 2000 / Motherbase / Parasquad 

Jaguar: Defender 2000, Raiden, Tempest 2000, Trevor McFur, Zero 5

 

Kolibri is my favorite game on the 32X and reason enough to own it. Motherbase is an awkward Viewpoint clone with an odd and interesting possession mechanic - I still don't know if I like it! Raiden is solid, but not as good as the Turbografx version from many years before. Trevor McFur is not as horrible as people make it out to be, but it's not great. Zero 5 is a lot more fun with rapid fire. Tempest 2000 alone is the single best reason to own a Jaguar. If you include all the post-release games like Wormhole 2000, Rebooteroids, the Jeff Minter collection, Protector, Last Strike, and so on, it's hard not to give the nod to the Jaguar. But don't miss Kolibri, is what I'm saying. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Sports
32X: FIFA Soccer 96, 36 Great Holes, NBA Jam Tournament Edition, NFL Quarterback Club, RBI Baseball '95, Toughman Contest, World Series Baseball Starring Deion Sanders

Jaguar: Brutal Sports Football, Fever Pitch Soccer, International Sensible Soccer, NBA Jam: Tournament Edition, Troy Aikman NFL Football, White Men Can't Jump

 

Both NBA Jams are excellent, but the weird and creepy music in the Jaguar version makes me laugh, so I'm giving it the nod. The various 32X sports games are hard to tell from their Genesis versions, and in some cases they play worse. Toughman is the only boxing game on either, but it's just okay. Nothing on the 32X is as fun as Brutal Spots Football or as good as Sensible Soccer. Add in unfinished games like Brett Hull, and... well, you would still be better off playing Genesis EA and Sega sports games. Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Star Trek simulator / billiards

32X: Star Trek: Starfleet Academy Starship Bridge Simulator

 

This game is really underrated and more people should play it. Advantage: 32X.

 

Wrestling
32X: WWF Raw, WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game

 

Nothing on the Jaguar. WrestleMania is one of the most fun wrestling games ever - essentially NBA Jam for professional wrestling. Advantage: 32X.

 

The Jaguar represents more genres, and in most of the popular genres it wins.

 

Overall Advantage: Jaguar.

 

Homebrew games and development community

 

The 32x has gotten some Doom WAD replacements, a Rick Dangerous port, a Wolf3D port, and a SID player. I'm not aware of anything else. The Jaguar... well... *gestures at AtariAge store, Songbird, Jaguar development forum, all of the development tools in multiple languages, and so on*.

 

Advantage: Jaguar.

 

So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

Had both and sold both..  Kinda sorta regret it, but the Jaguar itself felt so janky and the controller was horrible.  The 32X was such a pain to hook up and I think I truly only like Virtual Racing.  Kinda random, but i have a complete copy of Corpse Killer for SegaCD 32x that I forgot to include when I sold the lot.  If anyone here is looking for that game complete let me know and name a good price.

 

[+GoldenWheels]

How many Atari ST ports does the 32X have?

 

Just by asking that am i tipping my hand? XD

[+Black_Tiger]

On 4/22/2021 at 7:27 PM, jgkspsx said:

Beyond that, the Jaguar was a standalone system with some really forward-looking ideas like ubiquitous solid state save memory and network play, a much more successful gambit than what the Xplay or the Sega Channel could offer over dial-up internet, and exactly what the next two generations of home console hardware supported. The 32X was not marketed as something that was going to last forever - it pretty much WAS marketed, at the time, as a short term way to play cutting edge games until your parents bought you a real next-gen system.

The 32X was marketed as real platform that you could enter into at a lower price if you already own at least a Genesis.

 

The all-in-one cart based 32X was always promised but the platform got cancelled early because third parties and even Sega got spread too thin trying to support so many Sega platforms.

 

They had to kill the SMS in Europe because they thought it would eat into Saturn sales.

[+Black_Tiger]

On 4/22/2021 at 7:27 PM, jgkspsx said:

 

The 32X doesn't really have any similar aesthetic theme. For games that have polygonal graphics, their characteristics are super low-poly geometry. For games that have big raster graphics, like Primal Rage and Doom, it's a whole lot of dithering.

The 32X 2D and 3D library do have a recognizable signature aesthetic through elements of Genesis based assets. Same as SNES has the signature colorized-B&W-Gameboy" assets layer used in most games, along with excessive mirroring and funky sprite proportions.

 

The Jaguar's most iconic visual trait is gourad shaded untextured polygons.

 

 

 

 

[Reaperman]

It's not really a contest for me, one of them has Virtua Racing, one of my personal GOATs, the other doesn't. Even though it's my 3rd favorite virtua racing home port (after switch and saturn), it still represents probably half my time on genesis/cd/32x over the last decade. Where I don't know if I've turned the jag/cd on in the last 10 years.

 

Related question: has anybody hacked Checkered Flag's performance or handling a bit? Jag has to be able to do better, right? Nice intro song, if nothing else.

 

here's what I actually play on those platforms, in descending order of amount played:

 

32x:

Virtua Racing

Star Wars

Shadow Squadron

Night Trap

 

Jag:

super burnout

t2k

battlemorph

...probably vid grid(?)

Edited April 27, 2021 by Reaperman

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, Reaperman said:

...

 

Related question: has anybody hacked Checkered Flag's performance or handling a bit? Jag has to be able to do better, right? Nice intro song, if nothing else.

 

....

CyranoJ has built a patch to support linear steering (rather than progressive), the original thread is here:

 

 

a link on how I applied the universal boot sector to the patched rom is here:

 

[Tanooki]

I think the lopsided setup, despite this being originally based all around Atari, is the fact the Jaguar just isn't very good nor are most the games.  It doesn't just 'win' because it is Atari and this site is on that, it also doesn't win just because it has more games either.  I think in the end a good way to see it, put both games behind a black card, controllers hiding in a box or using some 3rd party adapter so you can use the same pad on both...it's down to just the games.  Sega had the better stuff, the classic argument of quality over quantity.  Nintendo fans have made that one for like 25 years with the N64 vs the PS1, and to a point, albeit based on taste, can be objectively correct as PSX had many times over as many releases, but a lot of them are mediocre to awful, it's just there's such a swarm of titles there's more than enough greats, while the N64 has like 300 games but a good percentage are good to excellent.  That's where 32X sits, good to excellent, both based on unique games, but also the ports too.  Jag had a leg up in ways on straight up 3D releases, it was more around that in design, and well some games were loved enough on here to get their copies shoveled around (jagDoom ports, Tempest 2K on DOS, etc.)

 

And this shot is directly at  JGK there from a few days back, if we're going to cross into going toe to toe on CD based games, well given the 32X was basically a lockon for the Genesis, and the Genesis had the SegaCD I guess we should line up the SegaCD vs JagCD games?  Yeah, that's a curb stomping of the Atari.

[+jgkspsx]

Oddly enough, the Jaguar got a flood of votes yesterday! It's almost even now.

Well, as you know, I am preoccupied with the never wases and almost rans of video game history. (I really need to get a Virtual Boy.) As CD based systems go, I think the Sega CD was less successful than the PC Engine CD worldwide but more successful than the CDi or Jaguar CD. Probably close to neck and neck with the 3DO? But it lived for so much longer than the 32X and the Jag CD that it seems to be an unfair comparison. What cracks me up about the 32X CD is that the majority of games were simply remastered FMV games that had already released on the Sega CD. It's hard to see why they even bothered (even though they look a lot better, which probably helps things like Night Trap play better). (Full disclosure: I have never actually played any of the 32X CD games. Which is about to change thanks to @NeonSpaceBeagle.) There aren't even any known 32X CD works in progress of note, except for Surgical Strike, which was finished. 

 

Whereas the Jaguar CD had much more compelling reasons to exist, and much more compelling play experiences. I think it's obvious that it was a mistake, but so were the 32X and Sega CD, ultimately. It's easy to see that with hindsight but not surprising people didn't see it at the time.

 

I am going to add two more categories of comparison: Top Tier Games and Ports and enduring popularity of games. Those were sorely missing from the first one. I think it's very even in the former category, but very lopsided in support of the Jaguar in the latter.

[Reaperman]

I had an odd thought this morning.  I legitimately have two somewhat unpopular opinions about the (fairly) widely-accepted 'best games' on each of these platforms, which I'll share for the slight troll-ishness of them:

 

• I love Virtua Racing on 32x, but Saturn is just better at it. More cars, more tracks, more racing, and more smooth. That said, most people view it as a 7/10 game on that platform (at best). 
• I love Tempest 2000 on jaguar, but Saturn is just better at it. Nice and smooth, prettier, and has the cd soundtrack. That said, most people view that version as a 7/10 game on that platform (at best).

 

I had to stop doing jag forums long ago because all the talk wandered over to looking at one specific thing in a vacuum and comparing it to some other system. Because the bit-wars are still on, or something. 'Jaguar's voxel performance is 1.4 times better than 3do's, best sistm evar, or what?'

Edited April 27, 2021 by Reaperman

[+jgkspsx]

Ultimately I love both systems and see no purpose in choosing one or the other. But I think comparisons are a way to illustrate things that are underappreciated about both systems.

[+Stephen]

On 4/23/2021 at 12:44 PM, GoldenWheels said:

How many Atari ST ports does the 32X have?

 

Just by asking that am i tipping my hand? XD

16-bit power - DO THE MATH!

[phoenixdownita]

They are both slim pickings but in terms of memorable games:

on the 32X

1. Virtua Racing
2. Virtua Fighter
3. After Burner
4. Space Harrier

(yes there are better versions as well but those up to that point were very good on their own)

 

on the Jag

1. Doom
2. Wolf3D
3. Rayman
4. AvP

It is said they sold 250K Jag and 600K 32X, the Sega CD about 2.2M .... and the JagCD 20K .... at any rate I'd gladly ignore the CD units of both platforms for the sake of this!

 

The Sega properties were more obvious to me especially if you had been in Arcades, pity the 32X never received an updated OutRun and Super HangOn. 
The Jag was hot as consoles go wrt FPS of the time, but I can't honestly see how anyone that didn't own a Jag bitd knows of Cybermorph or Super BurnOut or Ultra Vortek.

Both offer more than the 4 titles above, the 32X was practically discontinued within a year and so if we wonder about the untapped JagPowa I wonder even more about what could the 32X do? (likely not much more lol).

The Jag appears to be superior in terms of raw power but as far as SW goes I personally remember more of the Sega Arcade ports than anything else. And yes the 32X was eclipsed by the Saturn but still it wasn't that wimpy:

 

 

And the 32X has a decent version of Mortal Kombat 2 that however possible to implement on the Jag never materialized.

[Goochman]

It so sad the Jag didnt get anything like VF or VR - those look great on the 32X and the Jag's efforts were not great.  World Tour Racing was decent but crippled by lower frame rates.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

The one game I regret not getting when I had a jag was Atari Karts.  I remember the local game store at the time had it for 50 bux used and I thought that was too much.. This was the mid 00's, so well before the used game bubble market we are currently in.  I wonder how much people are trying to sell it for now on ebay? 200? 300? 9000? 26,405 graded 8.6?

[+Stephen]

8 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

 

The Jag appears to be superior in terms of raw power but as far as SW goes I personally remember more of the Sega Arcade ports than anything else. And yes the 32X was eclipsed by the Saturn but still it wasn't that wimpy:

Now imagine Fight for Life next to Virtua Fighter, and Checkered Flag next to Virtua Racer.  It will paint a pretty clear picture of the Jag not being superior in terms of power.

[phoenixdownita]

11 hours ago, Stephen said:

Now imagine Fight for Life next to Virtua Fighter, and Checkered Flag next to Virtua Racer.  It will paint a pretty clear picture of the Jag not being superior in terms of power.

I wouldn't be so categorical, the teams that gave us VF and VR on 32X were far more experienced and likely had much better tools, I see enough in the Jag 3D production to tell me it could (even if it didn't have actual games).

[+wongojack]

On 4/22/2021 at 9:27 PM, jgkspsx said:

I'm surprised this poll is so lopsided in favor of the 32X here, of all places. I am a long-time 32X fan and only recently got a Jaguar. I think the Jaguar is the more compelling and worthwhile system, even if they are both my favorite misfits, and despite the weird similarities in their libraries (great mech games, great space shooters, hilariously inept dirtbike games, Pitfall, NBA Jam, Primal Rage, Doom). Here's my case.

 

 

Amazing post!  I don't know enough about these systems to vote, but I think that summary might be the best thing I've ever read about these 2.

 

This thread reminds me of a segment on the CU Podcast (aka Pat the NES Punk) that recently was shared on Youtube:  Good Games that Deserved a Better Console - YouTube

[+Stephen]

54 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I wouldn't be so categorical, the teams that gave us VF and VR on 32X were far more experienced and likely had much better tools, I see enough in the Jag 3D production to tell me it could (even it it didn't).

Every released game we got (which is where it counts) says otherwise.  Also, in 20 years of homebrew, the best we've seen is that the jag cam maybe squeek out 10,000 to 12,000 flat shaded polygons per second.  Sounds like a lot until you realize that means for an entire scene running at 60FPS, we get 200 triangles on the screen.  Not 200 triangles for each car - for an entire screen!

 

There is no mystical missing power that just needs a super talented wizard of a developer to get crazy awesome 3D running on the Jag.  Plain and simple the system cannot handle it.  It was a fun system for the time, I've had mine since 1994.  I've seen almost every argument and flame war at no less than a dozen sites.  It's plain to see exactly what the Jag can do as far as 3D because we've had a quarter of a century to see it.

[phoenixdownita]

6 hours ago, Stephen said:

Every released game we got (which is where it counts) says otherwise.  Also, in 20 years of homebrew, the best we've seen is that the jag cam maybe squeek out 10,000 to 12,000 flat shaded polygons per second.  Sounds like a lot until you realize that means for an entire scene running at 60FPS, we get 200 triangles on the screen.  Not 200 triangles for each car - for an entire screen!

 

There is no mystical missing power that just needs a super talented wizard of a developer to get crazy awesome 3D running on the Jag.  Plain and simple the system cannot handle it.  It was a fun system for the time, I've had mine since 1994.  I've seen almost every argument and flame war at no less than a dozen sites.  It's plain to see exactly what the Jag can do as far as 3D because we've had a quarter of a century to see it.

The 32X only had the 2 SH2 really and the Jag in between Tom and Jerry is likely a match imho.
The 32X VR does not run at 60FPS, more like 20 according to https://segaretro.org/Virtua_Racing_Deluxe but I cannot validate the claim, so according to math above that's about 600 triangles per screen which may be enough to "match" the visuals (not sure you mean 200 1px triangles, I have not looked at those stats in long time).

You are right in saying that there's no Jag game matching VR or VF but WTR with road texture off is hinting at the right direction imho, that's why I say I don't think the Jag is particularly gimped in 3D compared to the 32X (I have not programmed for either so maybe bandwidth is better on 32X? not sure).
You can see that VF for 32X has much lower polycount than Saturn and having the same dual SH2 CPUs (23Mhz on 32X and 28Mhz on Sat) tells you you need more than just raw CPU to pull off those visuals, but then again maybe Sega being Sega purposefully limited those ports.


Not flaming, no untapped power per se, just a belief that in 3D the Jag should be on par with the 32X or if you prefer the difference is likely a lot less than the games we have would lead us to believe, and we know for a fact the Jag can do Doom better than the 32X (at least the port the 32X got) but raycasting etc.....

As I said I like some of the 32X games more due to being big Sega Arcade properties and being ported very decently on the platform. Unfortunately I do not like playing many of the Jag 3D games, but even on the 32X if you remove VF and VR not sure what I'll use as a comparand.

[+jgkspsx]

I mean, if we're going to compare similar games, let's do some comparisons more fair to the Jaguar too:

 

Mech game:

Iron Soldier 2:
 

 

vs Metal Head:

 

 

The 32X game looks almost PS1 like in its textures (and the way they warp), but it's all right angles and the draw distance is ultra short. The destructible scenery is a lot more impressive on the Jag.

 

And in three dimensions, there's Skyhammer on the Jag: 

 

 

Which looks a lot more competitive with the PS1 or Saturn, and positively blows away many of their early games.

 

Space combat:

 

Stellar Assault for the 32X:

 

 

Vs the very unfinished Spacewar 2000:

 

 

The Jag game is much smoother.

 

How about Darxide? Lots of textured polygons and it runs really fast: 

 

 

But again the Jag is much smoother: 

 

 

And maybe this last one isn't fair, but Arena tank battler:

 

I-War for the Jag:

 

 

vs. T-MEK (which really is more fairly compared to BattleWheels on the Lynx ?)

 

 

[phoenixdownita]

3 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

I mean, if we're going to compare similar games, let's do some comparisons more fair to the Jaguar too:

 

Mech game:

Iron Soldier 2:
 

 

vs Metal Head:

 

 

The 32X game looks almost PS1 like in its textures (and the way they warp), but it's all right angles and the draw distance is ultra short. The destructible scenery is a lot more impressive on the Jag.

 

And in three dimensions, there's Skyhammer on the Jag: 

 

 

Which looks a lot more competitive with the PS1 or Saturn, and positively blows away many of their early games.

 

Space combat:

 

Stellar Assault for the 32X:

 

 

Vs the very unfinished Spacewar 2000:

 

 

The Jag game is much smoother.

 

How about Darxide? Lots of textured polygons and it runs really fast: 

 

 

But again the Jag is much smoother: 

 

 

And maybe this last one isn't fair, but Arena tank battler:

 

I-War for the Jag:

 

 

vs. T-MEK (which really is more fairly compared to BattleWheels on the Lynx ?)

 

 

IS2 is a Dec 30, 1997 game .... it does show the Jag can do smooth mostly flat shaded 3D games, but let's be honest here it's totally irrelevant, but you could play MetalHead in Feb of 1995 (almost 3y earlier) if you really wanted to.

So yeah the Jaguar was on-par/maybe-better/slightly-worse than the 32X but for both the timing was just not right and both had too little too late, the 32X pretty much was dead in mid 1995 ... 

 

The sad part on the Jag is that there's not very much in the direction of killer app (even if for a little it had the best console ports of Doom and Wolf3D and of course AvP was talked a lot about but it just wasn't enough of a system seller, same for Tempest 2000, awesome game if you knew what it was in the Arcades almost 15y earlier), while on the 32X VirtuaRacing is kind of such a thing imho, on 32X it came out in Dec 1994 (2 weeks after the Jag Checkered Flag to be clear), the Saturn version won't be around until Nov 95 in NA

I am not trying to argue both sides, they are both footnotes in the history of videogames, the 32X should never have been made imho, and the Jag was a case of being a little early and also too rushed plus a little ill-advised imho. Both 32X and Jag were better than the 16bits they were supposed to compete against, they were both worse than the Saturn and PS1, maybe "on par" with the 3DO (not that I care) but that one had a nice Need For Speed (still at 700US$ it was way too expensive even with that killer app) and a nice Road Rash (the 1994 version).

 

People wanted 3D textured gfx and the 32X seems to be doing somewhat "better" at that from your examples but it was no match for what was coming, c'mon in Japan the Saturn launched 5 days before the 32X ... enough said about that really.

PS: tonight I tried to go over some of the Jag 3D games and man what a sorry bunch, I did manage to place 1st on CF linear patch on the Arctic Run race (there are penguins!!!!) on a 5 lap single race (my first win, awesome) ... and yes the framerate kills it but I'll play more of it 'cause I am a glutton for punishment, thank you CJ.

Wrt the Jag 3D games I tried there was SpaceWar 2000, ClubDrive, PhaseZero (demo), Fight for Life (holy mother ...), Supercross 3D (lol... I want my GD money back) and even Missile Command 3D (it's its own thing but I would not have paid for it bitd or today) and of course Checkered Flags + CJ Linear Patch (I am a sucker for 3D racing games, no karts though).

 

Wrt framerate let's just remember that PS1 Ridge Racer (a launch title for PS1) was 30fps so I wouldn't over index on the 60fps even if yes those games look smoother etc....etc....

[Reaperman]

9 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

Wrt framerate let's just remember that PS1 Ridge Racer (a launch title for PS1) was 30fps so I wouldn't over index on the 60fps even if yes those games look smoother etc....etc....

Yeah, I haven't counted but I doubt even the Virtua Racing arcade machine was 60fps. I was surprised when I found out rush 2049 cabs, which are 5+ years newer, were still locked at 30fps (without cheat codes, and even with, that just unlocks framerate).  Speaking of ridge racer on ps1, that bonus disc that came with r4, featuring the first ridge racer at 60fps--that is a thing of wonder.  Bravo to those guys!

Edited April 29, 2021 by Reaperman