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marko1301

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Ive been tinkering with computers since my original Atari 400 with which I introduced many "30 yr old" kids to the joys of computing if not to programming then playing star raiders and eastern front. I moved on as we do to various other machines over the years including this current Mac and a few windoze machines. I always wanted to get to grips with assembler as that seemed such a pure and powerful way to communicate with hardware. I guess the closest I ever got was with industrial PLC coding which I did for long enough. That was a raw and bit banging approach to control. I flitted between industrial control and 3D graphics which (using Maya) I was creating upto the dreaded pandemic. (Hope this isn't sounding like a CV)

I never left Atari 8 bit completely and have enjoyed star raiders on many emulators. I also took to grappling with 6502 assembler again using the W65C02SXB board for starters but recently picked up the WUDSN IDE and this seems the best of both worlds. The great work by phaeron with the Altirra emulator and Peter's tutorials etc have made the experience fun - but I haven't got serious yet.

My point is I guess is that surely Atari have missed a trick by trying to compete with Sony/Xbox/Nintendo with another games console when surely they should have re-created an 8 bit (65C02 maybe) device with emulated POKEY and GTIA/Antic etc. With Easy access to storage and HDMI hookup to any old monitor and a USB port or two the machine would be current and capable of introducing generations to a more simple and slower architecture. They could hammer in an assembler listing from a magazine if they wanted given there are still heaps of code snippets in the old 80's magazines and really understand how these devices work. I think for sure its not just us nostalgia junkies looking to relive our youth. Just look at the work of makers and Arduino. That stuff is pretty raw.

Anyway just my little rant at Atari probably going to drop the ball again. Do we need another console? Thanks for listening.

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4 minutes ago, marko1301 said:

Ive been tinkering with computers since my original Atari 400 with which I introduced many "30 yr old" kids to the joys of computing if not to programming then playing star raiders and eastern front. I moved on as we do to various other machines over the years including this current Mac and a few windoze machines. I always wanted to get to grips with assembler as that seemed such a pure and powerful way to communicate with hardware. I guess the closest I ever got was with industrial PLC coding which I did for long enough. That was a raw and bit banging approach to control. I flitted between industrial control and 3D graphics which (using Maya) I was creating upto the dreaded pandemic. (Hope this isn't sounding like a CV)

I never left Atari 8 bit completely and have enjoyed star raiders on many emulators. I also took to grappling with 6502 assembler again using the W65C02SXB board for starters but recently picked up the WUDSN IDE and this seems the best of both worlds. The great work by phaeron with the Altirra emulator and Peter's tutorials etc have made the experience fun - but I haven't got serious yet.

My point is I guess is that surely Atari have missed a trick by trying to compete with Sony/Xbox/Nintendo with another games console when surely they should have re-created an 8 bit (65C02 maybe) device with emulated POKEY and GTIA/Antic etc. With Easy access to storage and HDMI hookup to any old monitor and a USB port or two the machine would be current and capable of introducing generations to a more simple and slower architecture. They could hammer in an assembler listing from a magazine if they wanted given there are still heaps of code snippets in the old 80's magazines and really understand how these devices work. I think for sure its not just us nostalgia junkies looking to relive our youth. Just look at the work of makers and Arduino. That stuff is pretty raw.

Anyway just my little rant at Atari probably going to drop the ball again. Do we need another console? Thanks for listening.

'Atari' isn't Atari anymore, sadly. It's just a brand name you can pay to use on your product at this point.

That said, I agree. A hackable retrocomputer with polished, easy to use programming interface that teaches programming/hardware/hacking at the assembly level is certainly something that would sell these days. But I doubt a remade Atari would, as the 6502 isn't anywhere near as used as something like the ARM processor is these days, which is why things like the Raspberry PI sell so well.

I'd certainly buy one though!

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3 hours ago, marko1301 said:

 

I never left Atari 8 bit completely and have enjoyed star raiders on many emulators. I also took to grappling with 6502 assembler again using the W65C02SXB board for starters but recently picked up the WUDSN IDE and this seems the best of both worlds. The great work by phaeron with the Altirra emulator and Peter's tutorials etc have made the experience fun - but I haven't got serious yet.

My point is I guess is that surely Atari have missed a trick by trying to compete with Sony/Xbox/Nintendo with another games console when surely they should have re-created an 8 bit (65C02 maybe) device with emulated POKEY and GTIA/Antic etc. With Easy access to storage and HDMI hookup to any old monitor and a USB port or two the machine would be current and capable of introducing generations to a more simple and slower architecture. They could hammer in an assembler listing from a magazine if they wanted given there are still heaps of code snippets in the old 80's magazines and really understand how these devices work. I think for sure its not just us nostalgia junkies looking to relive our youth. Just look at the work of makers and Arduino. That stuff is pretty raw.

Anyway just my little rant at Atari probably going to drop the ball again. Do we need another console? Thanks for listening.

They are not going up against Sony, Xbox, Nintendo,  they would be foolish to try.   They are going after a market niche focused around retrobrand consoles.

 

But their "console" will be a fully fledged  open PC capable of running emulators for virtually all Atari systems of the past.   Assuming they get it shipped of course.  You could definately put the atari800 or altirra emulator on it and make it the kind of system you are dreaming about.

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5 minutes ago, marko1301 said:

Thanks for the heads up zzip. I saw a couple of reviews that appeared to be comparing to the latest releases from Micro$oft and $ony - Badly of course. The machine appeared to be trying to run current titles - I guess badly - I dunno, didn't wait till the end. 

Yeah Sony sold over 100 million PS4's,  so just imagine the volume discounts they get from AMD.

 

The Atari VCS is also AMD based, but it will probably sell in the tens of thousands at best, so they simple aren't going to be able to build a machine that competes on price and features with Sony and Microsoft.    It can play current games as long as they don't make heavy use of 3D.

 

But they did announce early on that it would be open and users can install their own stuff on it.   If I buy one, it would be as a way to bring all my emulators and retrogames to my TV.   I don't really trust the current iteration of Atari to support this thing with a ton of compelling games.   But it would be cool to play all my old Atari games on a an Atari device in 2020.

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17 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah Sony sold over 100 million PS4's,  so just imagine the volume discounts they get from AMD.

 

The Atari VCS is also AMD based, but it will probably sell in the tens of thousands at best, so they simple aren't going to be able to build a machine that competes on price and features with Sony and Microsoft.    It can play current games as long as they don't make heavy use of 3D.

 

But they did announce early on that it would be open and users can install their own stuff on it.   If I buy one, it would be as a way to bring all my emulators and retrogames to my TV.   I don't really trust the current iteration of Atari to support this thing with a ton of compelling games.   But it would be cool to play all my old Atari games on a an Atari device in 2020.

Yep, this is how I have been looking at the new VCS; I don't care about any "modern console" side of it, if it succeeds with new innovative games, fine, but when I buy one it will be used as a set-top box in the family room for playing their classic vault games and emulation, and family room internet surfing and streaming video. Of course I'll be waiting until either it's out for a year or two and the price drops a couple hundred dollars, or more likely, it's a complete failure and six months later I can get this new PC/smartbox for an incredible bargain-bin price and since it's a PC, doesn't need support from Atari. I wasn't interested in the new VCS in the slightest until they announced it would also be a PC with a sandbox mode, that changed everything for me. The same feature that all the nay-Sayers pooh-poohed and laughed at.

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1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

I wasn't interested in the new VCS in the slightest until they announced it would also be a PC with a sandbox mode, that changed everything for me. The same feature that all the nay-Sayers pooh-poohed and laughed at

As one of these naysayers I'd say that we did not laugh at the "feature" itself but the ridiculous concept of paying +300USD for an already-outdated Linux SoC PC when there's a heap of cheaper and better alternatives.

 

So basically it all boils down to having that Fuji logo on the box. Fair enough, I could understand paying premium for that, or waiting till it inevitably hits the bargain bins, if not for the fact that the modern "Atari" is a shameful and shambolic operation and should not be supported in any way. It's really not the same Atari y'all grew up with and have sentiment for.

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2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

it's a complete failure and six months later I can get this new PC/smartbox for an incredible bargain-bin price and since it's a PC, doesn't need support from Atari. I wasn't interested in the new VCS in the slightest until they announced it would also be a PC with a sandbox mode, that changed everything for me. The same feature that all the nay-Sayers pooh-poohed and laughed at.

Yeah that is it's only attractive feature to me.   I can't imagine why I'd want something completely closed like the Amico.   They naysayers will point out that you could build an ITX PC system and do the same thing,  but I looked and systems built on the same chipset run around the same price.   Well the Atari name is worth something, even if the current iteration of Atari kinda sucks.   And in 20 years, which is more likely to be a collector's item and hold its value better?  A generic itx PC, or an Atari VCS?   Most certainly the VCS.      The Jaguar was a failure, could be had on clearance for $50 by 1995, but now they are worth a lot more.

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On 10/29/2020 at 10:57 AM, Lord Thag said:

'Atari' isn't Atari anymore, sadly. It's just a brand name you can pay to use on your product at this point.

That said, I agree. A hackable retrocomputer with polished, easy to use programming interface that teaches programming/hardware/hacking at the assembly level is certainly something that would sell these days. But I doubt a remade Atari would, as the 6502 isn't anywhere near as used as something like the ARM processor is these days, which is why things like the Raspberry PI sell so well.

I'd certainly buy one though!

Wonder how much it costs to do that.  Like can I have an Atari line of Sex Toys made? 

 

On a more serious note, I believe there are a few different projects of creating 6502 based systems.  Though I would almost go for a 65816 based system, as they're 16bit versions of the 6502 for the most part.

3 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah that is it's only attractive feature to me.   I can't imagine why I'd want something completely closed like the Amico.   They naysayers will point out that you could build an ITX PC system and do the same thing,  but I looked and systems built on the same chipset run around the same price.   Well the Atari name is worth something, even if the current iteration of Atari kinda sucks.   And in 20 years, which is more likely to be a collector's item and hold its value better?  A generic itx PC, or an Atari VCS?   Most certainly the VCS.      The Jaguar was a failure, could be had on clearance for $50 by 1995, but now they are worth a lot more.

Yeah, the 'based on Linux' and being an open platform is what got me interested as well.  I mean to be honest, I don't care about 'we have streaming services!' at all!  And designing and making a small computer system is not an easy thing you can do with off the shelf parts, as heat becomes and issue.  There's a reason 'gamer' style PC computers have heatsinks that are bigger than most consoles could handle...

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1 hour ago, leech said:

Yeah, the 'based on Linux' and being an open platform is what got me interested as well.  I mean to be honest, I don't care about 'we have streaming services!' at all!  And designing and making a small computer system is not an easy thing you can do with off the shelf parts, as heat becomes and issue.  There's a reason 'gamer' style PC computers have heatsinks that are bigger than most consoles could handle...

Not just that, but the user interface has to be designed for living room use.   Putting a PC with Windows on your TV will likely force you to use a keyboard or mouse at times, which isn't convenient for sofa use.   Steam "big picture mode" helps, but it isn't perfect.   It will be interesting to see what kind of interface the VCS has

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9 minutes ago, zzip said:

Not just that, but the user interface has to be designed for living room use.   Putting a PC with Windows on your TV will likely force you to use a keyboard or mouse at times, which isn't convenient for sofa use.   Steam "big picture mode" helps, but it isn't perfect.   It will be interesting to see what kind of interface the VCS has

Yeah, I figured I'd try out the GamerOS distribution, which seems to be a lot like SteamOS, but more generic and Arch based instead of Debian based (though I do love my Debian!).  If the standard interface has a way to use steam BPM, and the Steam Controller, it'll be a pretty sweet set up, swap between the Steam controller and the Xbox style Atari controller (as some games refuse to work well with the steam controller) would work out pretty well, I think.

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5 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah that is it's only attractive feature to me.   I can't imagine why I'd want something completely closed like the Amico.   They naysayers will point out that you could build an ITX PC system and do the same thing,  but I looked and systems built on the same chipset run around the same price.   Well the Atari name is worth something, even if the current iteration of Atari kinda sucks.   And in 20 years, which is more likely to be a collector's item and hold its value better?  A generic itx PC, or an Atari VCS?   Most certainly the VCS.      The Jaguar was a failure, could be had on clearance for $50 by 1995, but now they are worth a lot more.

Just thought about the collectibles of Atari.  How much will their Hotels be worth in 30 years?  Haha

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On 10/30/2020 at 5:14 PM, leech said:

Yeah, I figured I'd try out the GamerOS distribution, which seems to be a lot like SteamOS, but more generic and Arch based instead of Debian based (though I do love my Debian!).  If the standard interface has a way to use steam BPM, and the Steam Controller, it'll be a pretty sweet set up, swap between the Steam controller and the Xbox style Atari controller (as some games refuse to work well with the steam controller) would work out pretty well, I think.

I've tried SteamOS itself it was very picky about how your system was partitioned, and it was bare-bones outside what Steam needed.   Nice effort but needed work,  I'll take a look at gamerOS.

 

On 10/30/2020 at 6:08 PM, leech said:

Just thought about the collectibles of Atari.  How much will their Hotels be worth in 30 years?  Haha

It will probably change names by then.   I've seen Demolition Man, so I know it will be the Taco Bell Hotel!  

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On 10/29/2020 at 11:57 AM, Lord Thag said:

'Atari' isn't Atari anymore, sadly. It's just a brand name you can pay to use on your product at this point.

That said, I agree. A hackable retrocomputer with polished, easy to use programming interface that teaches programming/hardware/hacking at the assembly level is certainly something that would sell these days. But I doubt a remade Atari would, as the 6502 isn't anywhere near as used as something like the ARM processor is these days, which is why things like the Raspberry PI sell so well.

I'd certainly buy one though!

Yeah...I like having a vibrant community of retro people, but this stuff that keeps coming out as "Atari" in the last 20 years or so is annoying. Also..I know I'm a grumpy old man, but i really only enjoy sharing the old 8 bit days with people who were actually there..not retro-chasers. 

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8 minutes ago, Max_Chatsworth said:

Yeah...I like having a vibrant community of retro people, but this stuff that keeps coming out as "Atari" in the last 20 years or so is annoying. Also..I know I'm a grumpy old man, but i really only enjoy sharing the old 8 bit days with people who were actually there..not retro-chasers. 

I hear ya.  It is like a hipster thing for 20 somethings to think 40 year old computers are cool. 

Drives the prices up for us old farts who want to relive the 'glory' days.  I just bought two more 800xls because of keyboard variations.  I must have a bad case of retroidis....

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10 minutes ago, leech said:

I hear ya.  It is like a hipster thing for 20 somethings to think 40 year old computers are cool. 

Drives the prices up for us old farts who want to relive the 'glory' days.  I just bought two more 800xls because of keyboard variations.  I must have a bad case of retroidis....

You bought 2 800XL's because you wanted to sell one to an Atari age friend who has been looking for one at a decent price?! :)

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8 minutes ago, Max_Chatsworth said:

You bought 2 800XL's because you wanted to sell one to an Atari age friend who has been looking for one at a decent price?! :)

I needed an AWC and ALPS one to see which one I should put a U1MB, Rapidus and VBXE in to use as my main machine.  Also, I may need more FujiNets for when I need to play MIDI maze with my friends!

Kind of looks like most 800xls are floating around ~200.

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I finally got into assembler enough to do a game 4 years ago in it.  I can only imagine that with practice one's coding style improves, but nevertheless to merely create any game in assembler, I didn't find too daunting.

Frankly, as it turned out, in hindsight, the tedious part was dealing with charactersets and displaylists - the same tediousness that really was part of any language, including Atari Basic.  

 

I do write the game logic elsewhere and then port it into assembler -  simply because I find that it makes the assembly task less arduous, the last thing I want to do is sit down with a completely blank canvas and just start typing in assembly, oh the typing involved.  Godspeed to those that like that, I don't.

 

Even back in the day there were those that recommended coding in BASIC and porting key components into assembly for speed.  Which had merit, it gave someone a chance to develop the game and then dip their toe into assembler.  I wrote in C and assembler, but kept porting every last piece into assembler until there was no C left at all.   

 

For me the Atari programming bogs down on planning out the graphics.  And it really doesn't matter if you are using Action, Basic, or assembly, you are going to have to create your display list, your charactersets and whatnot. Which is probably why various tools focus on that.  They help, but I still find it tedious.

 

Anyway, I find this post timely, as my son who is 12 is writing some games in lua on the PC, and we ported my old game, Fire Balloon.  And I'm now going to take it back to Atari 8-bit.

 

My thought on teaching from the Atari basis, is that - yes, he would grasp a great understanding of how computers really work by using a simplified platform and programming in assembler.  However, he's quite happy programming in Lua, and I'm going with that.  If he wants to get into Assembler, we'll go that way, but I suspect he'll be OK programming on the higher level language and focusing his future efforts on things like 3d.

 

But I do want him to have that feel of having "home computer" for whatever reason, so I bought him the Raspberry Pi 400 which was just released.  It's an old school keyboard based computer that hooks to a tv, how great is that!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, leech said:

I have to say that Pi 400 has some of that awesome feeling of the old all in one wedge computers.  Wonder if they will release a Pi 800 with 8gb of ram.

I find it highly impractical. Having all the cables in the keyboard, especially when it's this light, is not good. Pi 4 in separate box and standalone BT keyboard seem better in every aspect. I like the exposed header, it would make good education device.

 

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2 minutes ago, R0ger said:

I find it highly impractical. Having all the cables in the keyboard, especially when it's this light, is not good. Pi 4 in separate box and standalone BT keyboard seem better in every aspect. I like the exposed header, it would make good education device.

 

See, my thinking is  the opposite.  The problem in my mind with the MiSTer and Raspberry Pi 4 is the layout of the ports.  They're both essentially cube like, with ports on every side with no real layout that works with anything outside of mounting them to the back of a screen to try to get things out of the way.  The Pi 400 works just like the olden days where you had some cables out the back and you could at least tie them up, or have them put neatly out of the way.

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9 hours ago, leech said:

See, my thinking is  the opposite.  The problem in my mind with the MiSTer and Raspberry Pi 4 is the layout of the ports.  They're both essentially cube like, with ports on every side with no real layout that works with anything outside of mounting them to the back of a screen to try to get things out of the way.  The Pi 400 works just like the olden days where you had some cables out the back and you could at least tie them up, or have them put neatly out of the way.

You have boxes for Pi with ports moved all to one side. You can do whatever you want with the ports. My issue with 400 is I move the keyboard around. Or even stow it away. It was not possible with 8bits, but it would be preferable for me even then. It is possible now. Why go back ? Keyboard with 2 cables, one of which is thick HDMI, and second one must not be pulled otherwise the machine will turn off ? No thanks, that's retro too much :-D

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12 hours ago, leech said:

See, my thinking is  the opposite.  The problem in my mind with the MiSTer and Raspberry Pi 4 is the layout of the ports.  They're both essentially cube like, with ports on every side with no real layout that works with anything outside of mounting them to the back of a screen to try to get things out of the way.  The Pi 400 works just like the olden days where you had some cables out the back and you could at least tie them up, or have them put neatly out of the way.

This was always one of my big issues with the Pi's.   Cables on all sides!  Impossible to have on on your desk and make it look tidy.  The 400 looks promising in that regard.   Does it still lack a power button though?

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