Do diehard Sega fans still hold a grudge on Sony?

[Hydro Thunder]

I probably will have more to say on the subject, but for now, just dropping this here

[KevinMos3]

I still begrudge sony because of Dreamcast days, and Lik Sang, and Bleemcast, and other dirty practices they engaged in to squash others. 

 

Playstation 1 and 2 are the only two systems I enjoy NOT collecting legit games for.  I was given a PS1 and a PS One, and bought another PS1 for $1 that I modded.  Picked up a modded PS2 for dirt cheap a few years ago.  Haven't touched a PS3 or 4.

[Hydro Thunder]

On 2/2/2021 at 6:06 PM, KevinMos3 said:

I still begrudge sony because of Dreamcast days, and Lik Sang, and Bleemcast, and other dirty practices they engaged in to squash others. 

 

Playstation 1 and 2 are the only two systems I enjoy NOT collecting legit games for.  I was given a PS1 and a PS One, and bought another PS1 for $1 that I modded.  Picked up a modded PS2 for dirt cheap a few years ago.  Haven't touched a PS3 or 4.

Agree 1000% with this.  The Bleemcast thing was painfully horrible.  If Sega had done that to some little company, I might not be the Sega / Atari guy I am today.  Still not at all down with Sega quashing SORR (ridiculous, hire the guys, license it, anything but just shutting it down like that), but that's nothing like Lik Sang, Bleemcast, the awful quality control of the first batch of Ps2s, the ads making it sound so much more powerful than it was, all garbage moves.

Not to mention that business with some Sony music cds containing rootkits.  It's kind of amazing that it didn't make bigger news / bigger punishments than it did.

[sn8k]

The only grudge I hold is with Sega themselves.

 

Instead of bringing over the japanese games that western gamers were begging for.......... sega of japan just assumes we dont want to play any of those games and that they are strictly for Japan no matter how vehemently the people cried out to get those games.

 

Sega of japan thinking they know their eastern and western audiences to the point of ignoring them and anything they asked for was a slap in the face.

 

Or how a new disc format is born. Yet the fucking goofs couldnt implement the security system that was planned from the beginning.

 

Millions and Millions of Dreamcasts shipped with zero security measures in place. This is great for the gamer. Bad for the people you expect to keep releasing games. If you cant make money on your game and 98% of people are just gonna download and burn it....whats the point anymore?

 

Sega knew damn well DVD's were the next logical step. But chooses to back their proprietary media format they forgot to protect like idiots.

 

I dont blame Sony for any of the missteps Sega took themselves. They got cocky, arrogant and couldnt give a fuck less what  you wanted.

 

It wasn't Sony's fault Sega of America and Sega of Japan were constantly at eachothers throats self sabotaging the other. Not knowing the others fate would eventually affect their own.

 

Now pay the ultimate price........total console death.

[BawesomeBurf]

Sony may have closed the lid on Sega, but Sega built the casket, laid in it, and then called Sony to tell them that they were ready. 

[+GoldLeader]

1 hour ago, BawesomeBurf said:

Sony may have closed the lid on Sega, but Sega built the casket, laid in it, and then called Sony to tell them that they were ready. 

^ T H I S ! 

 

OK This guy knows what's up!!!!

 

 

Best comment I've read lately.  

[spacecadet]

I hold a grudge against the public, not against Sony *or* Sega. Neither company did anything wrong. The public just made the wrong choice. It happens. Just look at pretty much any modern pop music for another couple hundred examples.

 

Nowadays a lot of people are discovering how good the Dreamcast really was. Too bad they didn't notice it at the time, but that's neither Sony's nor Sega's fault. The truth was out there even at the time.

[Hwlngmad]

On 4/11/2021 at 12:56 AM, BawesomeBurf said:

Sony may have closed the lid on Sega, but Sega built the casket, laid in it, and then called Sony to tell them that they were ready. 

Pretty much nails it imo.  Can't blame Sony for Sega's massive amount of mistakes (turning down Silicon Graphics and Sony themselves for the console after the Genesis) and ineptitude (early Saturn launch).

[+GoldLeader]

On 4/11/2021 at 2:13 AM, spacecadet said:

I hold a grudge against the public, not against Sony *or* Sega. Neither company did anything wrong. The public just made the wrong choice. It happens. Just look at pretty much any modern pop music for another couple hundred examples.

 

Nowadays a lot of people are discovering how good the Dreamcast really was. Too bad they didn't notice it at the time, but that's neither Sony's nor Sega's fault. The truth was out there even at the time.

 

I think one could argue there is plenty of blame to go around;  It was the public that bought PS2s,  although, like me, many of us bought Both systems, and early on due to rarity*, many people chose a Dreamcast because they could (find it on store shelves).  IMHO SEGA should have embraced that, advertised it, and rode the wave...

 

But (separate issue) it was and still is the public that has bad taste in music (OK Great example there LOL.)

 

But it was Not the public that pulled the plug on Dreamcast.  It was SEGA that decided, even though they had a fairly nice product going, to announce they were going to be "Content Only",  not hardware;  It was SEGA that said they would support the Dreamcast another Year, and then in 3 months there was nothing available for Dreamcast except a few crap titles in the  bargain bin.

 

My personal opinion here is that SEGA could have supported the Dreamcast a while longer, especially with some first party games, while also quietly working behind the scenes on titles for competing systems.  Why not release some titles on Both systems?

 

 

*This rarity, whether on purpose or due to certain shortages, drove the PlayStation 2 to legendary status.  It became a "Must Have" in the eyes of the gaming public, and not being able to find one only made people want it more.  I bought one on launch day, and yet still, to this day, I have an awe and reverence for it.  For the record, though, I was buying games for the Dreamcast and the PS2...Supporting both until SEGA unceremoniously killed the Dreamcast.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:32 AM, Austin said:

 

 

Not entirely. Sega was really turning things around with the Dreamcast, at least here in the States. That said, there are many factors that resulted in the discontinuation of the system. Yes, Sega's previous bad decisions was a factor, but another major one was the hype for the PS2. The hype was unreal, to ridiculously idiotic levels that honestly hasn't been experienced since with a new console launch. Hype so great that, despite there already being this amazing system on the market with a couple hundred games and online play, people still held off for the PS2, even if it meant waiting another six to eight months to obtain one. It was stupid.

☝️ Yes, this.

 

I recall sitting in English class in High School in either '99 or '00, and for some reason the PS2 vs. the DC came up. The PS2 hadn't been released yet, but there was a guy making the argument that the PS2 was far superior because he regurgitated the spin that "individual blades of grass will move in the wind thanks to the Emotion Engine." Not that such a thing makes games more fun or anything.

 

He also threw in that the PS2 was "definitely" getting FF7, which has long been an annoying thing that PS fanboys invented out of their dreams for every Sony system, even though nothing was announced on a remake until the PS4. 

 

I can also remember visiting a local game store around the time that the DC came out, and the sales guy behind the counter was pulling out all the stops to convince a customer that they should jump on the DC instead of waiting for the PS2 to come along. While I can't remember all the specifics of the argument, I do remember him saying "the Dreamcast is worth every penny!"

 

The Anti-DC hype train got so bad at one point that I even remember people saying that Bleemcast was going to save the DC since that played PS1 games better than the PS2 did, or something along those lines.

 

At least in my area, most people on the fence about it did prefer to wait for the PS2 since they figured it would live up to all of the hype, ridiculous or not.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Shaggy the Atarian

[roots.genoa]

Even my older sister who never cared about video games told me that players would "feel real emotions on the PS2". And a Titanic game was supposed to be released on it. ?‍♂️

I also remember a guy in my class mocking the Dreamcast because the PS2 would crush it - which would indeed happen, but he had no idea the Dreamcast was already available at the time.

 

Stop saying it's about the games. It's about marketing first and foremost.

 

Like I said earlier (edit: no, it was in another topic, the one about SEGA fans holding a grudge against Sony), to me the final nail in the coffin was the price war between the Saturn and the PlayStation in the US. SEGA couldn't afford to lower the price because of their past mistakes, clearly. Sony could and even though it seemed 'unfair' from the point of view of young gamers, at the end of the day, it's just business.

Edited April 16, 2021 by roots.genoa

[youxia]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

Stop saying it's about the games. It's about marketing first and foremost.

But console marketing is about games, a huge part of it at least

 

Like it or not, PS2 held the promise of continuing the juggernaut franchises from PSX, and judging by the quality of these, most likely adding some new ones (which is what duly happened). Dreamcast had some quality games at the beginning, but even the arcade hits such as Soul Calibur or past-glory mascots could not compete with the likes of FF, Gran Turismo or Metal Gear, even if these weren't available yet - the former belonged to another era. That's why waiting even a long time wasn't such a big deal for those who couldn't afford to have multiple systems.

 

I did get Dreamcast first, because I was obsessed with Jet Set Radio & Shenmue, but sold it not long after and got the you-know-what.

[roots.genoa]

1 hour ago, youxia said:

But console marketing is about games, a huge part of it at least

Of course. You need games to market the system... but you need marketing to sell the games as well.
I just meant I find annoying when people say system X will eventually beat system Y because it has "better games"; that's subjective anyway, especially since the mainstream audience doesn't like the same games as hardcore gamers.

[IntelliMission]

FUN FACT: When I finally decided to bought a next generation console in 2003, the Dreamcast wasn't available anymore!

 

The PS2 was the only option because it had the games I wanted to play in single player (GTA, Metal Gear) and multiplayer (Pro Evolution Soccer/Winning Eleven). I finally didn't finish any of the Metal Gear games, but instead I enjoyed Ico, Shadow of the Colossus or Katamari Damacy or TimeSplitters 2, so I can't complain.

 

And even if all those games had been available for the Xbox or GameCube, their controllers just didn't feel right to me compared to the Dual Shock 2 (even if, in 2010, I decided to drop it in favor of the Dual Shock 1, much more robust).

 

I fantasized for some weeks with buying the Dreamcast in 2000 because of the exciting non-pixelated (or blurred) textures), but in the end (as I said in the previous page) I realized the PS1 was enough (especially considering I didn't have a job!).

 

[Hwlngmad]

Also, and I know that this might not be a popular opinion, but as much as I love the Dreamcast, I can honestly say (objectively) that the PS2 was the better system with PS1 backwards compatibility, offering even more powerful hardware, and being a DVD player.  It was just the right kind of system at the right kind of time.

[IntelliMission]

I believe the PS2 was the first major home console to feature backwards compatibility with the previous generation (with the Game Boy Color perhaps being the first console in 1998).

 

Ironically, I didn't use the feature at all in the PS2 era days, and I only started taking good advantage of it after 2010.

[Austin]

16 hours ago, Hwlngmad said:

Also, and I know that this might not be a popular opinion, but as much as I love the Dreamcast, I can honestly say (objectively) that the PS2 was the better system with PS1 backwards compatibility, offering even more powerful hardware, and being a DVD player.  It was just the right kind of system at the right kind of time.

Backwards compatibility was nice for sure, but IMO, the PS2's library was lackluster that first year it was out, especially in comparison to the DC's library at the time. There were some good games no doubt, but the Dreamcast already had way more to choose from with way more variety. It wasn't until some heavy hitters like Devil May Cry, Gran Turismo 3, Twisted Metal Black and Grand Theft Auto III hit that the PS2 really started to come into its own. Obviously it would go on to be a smash success with arguably one of the greatest lineups ever, but that first year wasn't great, especially for users that already had access to the Dreamcast's excellent library.

  

15 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

I believe the PS2 was the first major home console to feature backwards compatibility with the previous generation (with the Game Boy Color perhaps being the first console in 1998).

It wasn't quite the first to do so without requiring an adapter (i.e., look at the Atari 7800 with 2600 compatibility). That said, it was definitely a big deal at the time. While I like keeping a PS1 around and use it occasionally, I mostly use my PS2 for those games these days. It's just too convenient!

Edited April 17, 2021 by Austin

[vrocko]

I was always a big Sega fan. I've got all their systems. I have all the Playstation systems so far except the PS5 and Sony has games that are just as entertaining as Nintendo, Sega or Microsoft. I like Sega and always have. I kind of held a grudge when the PS2 out sold the Dreamcast and the Dreamcast eventually went by the wayside, all though the homebrew community has really kept it going, but now I just purchase systems for the games I want and don't really care if it's Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. One thing that bugs me though is the Sony fanboys. They think everything else is lame or can't match up to their beloved PS systems. I also don't like what I've been hearing about Sony lately. Sounds as though they are going through a business philosophy change. They don't seem to care about the games as much as they used to and are focusing on BIG titles more and indy titles less and less. They don't seem to care about preserving their past either. Digital or hard copies may be unusable if what I understand about the PS3, PS4 and even PS5 is true and Sony doesn't make any changes to their older and current systems. They may change due to a lot of gamer backlash they've been receiving lately but time will tell. All in all I just want to play games and enjoy the systems I have. We all have our favorites so really, now that I think about it, does it matter what other people say about the system you support?  I mean I love my Dreamcast and I don't care what they say about. I still enjoy it and play games on it. Heck I can even buy new games for it! Sony fanboys can sit and spin for all I care. Besides if you don't try something new how do you know if you like it or not? 

[zetastrike]

Much like Atari in the late 80s/early 90s, Sega did a lot to deserve their place atop the ash heap.

 

I think two of the biggest problems they created for themselves aren't brought up very often.

 

Starting around 1993, SoA went on a tear of releasing tons of western developed garbage with a lot of marketing dollars behind them while at the same time de-emphasizing Japanese software.  Idk if their line of thought was "Americans want American made games!" or whatever, but you can't deny that Japan was making the best console games in that generation.  Say what you want about Nintendo (I don't like them at all) but they didn't put out garbage with their own name on it.  You can only burn consumers so many times before they don't trust you anymore.

 

The biggest issue that bit them was that they didn't learn how to adapt their IPs to the changing expectations of the market.  Through the entire lifespan of the Saturn, Sega kept putting out bare bones arcade conversions that added little to nothing as far as additional content.  Devs like Namco and their peers learned really quickly that players wanted and expected longer, more fleshed out experiences for their $50.  Look at how the Ridge Racer series progressed on the PS1 vs Sega's racing games, or Tekken vs Sega's 3D fighters.  In 1998, Sega released Manx TT Superbike on the Saturn.  It had TWO tracks and all you did was race against the clock.  That's a demo by any sane metrics but it was a full retail game.

[vrocko]

13 hours ago, zetastrike said:

Much like Atari in the late 80s/early 90s, Sega did a lot to deserve their place atop the ash heap.

 

I think two of the biggest problems they created for themselves aren't brought up very often.

 

Starting around 1993, SoA went on a tear of releasing tons of western developed garbage with a lot of marketing dollars behind them while at the same time de-emphasizing Japanese software.  Idk if their line of thought was "Americans want American made games!" or whatever, but you can't deny that Japan was making the best console games in that generation.  Say what you want about Nintendo (I don't like them at all) but they didn't put out garbage with their own name on it.  You can only burn consumers so many times before they don't trust you anymore.

 

The biggest issue that bit them was that they didn't learn how to adapt their IPs to the changing expectations of the market.  Through the entire lifespan of the Saturn, Sega kept putting out bare bones arcade conversions that added little to nothing as far as additional content.  Devs like Namco and their peers learned really quickly that players wanted and expected longer, more fleshed out experiences for their $50.  Look at how the Ridge Racer series progressed on the PS1 vs Sega's racing games, or Tekken vs Sega's 3D fighters.  In 1998, Sega released Manx TT Superbike on the Saturn.  It had TWO tracks and all you did was race against the clock.  That's a demo by any sane metrics but it was a full retail game.

Oh I agree Sega didn't follow up on a LOT of it's games and some of them were just not up to par as to what gamers wanted. More time on the games, more content, more tracks, more characters. The transition from the Genesis/MegaDrive to the Saturn was not so hot either. First the Sega CD, then the 32X along with the Saturn was confusing and just didn't make any sense to me or to other gamers I'm sure. I like some of the 32X games but then the Saturn came out and I was like well will this do better than the 32X or should I hang on to the 32X and wait for the Saturn to get more games? Will Saturn play 32X games? Why do you have two similar systems out at the same time in the first place? Also the fact that the Saturn started out as a 2D system instead of 3D then was changed to do 3D, with the advent of the Sony Playstation, made it more difficult for developers to program for so they avoided it all together. It almost seemed the 3D portion of the Saturn was an afterthought. Oh Sony's doing 3D games we better do it too! Sega did good, I thought with the Master System and the Genesis but then forgot to take that left turn at Albuquerque, to quote Bugs Bunny, and got lost. Dreamcast was a good system and easy to deal with but it was too little, too late. You already burned your bridges with the player base and they moved on to something bigger and better. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by vrocko

[roots.genoa]

It's ironic the 32X was mostly supported by SEGA of America since the Saturn was sold at a loss in the United States - well, mostly because of Sony's price war -, so it was confusing indeed to have the 32X competing with the Saturn.

 

But in Europe (at least in France), the Saturn was incredibly expensive at launch (around $500), so my brother and I got it later, with Panzer Dragon Zwei and Alien Trilogy. The 32X could seem expensive as well for what it was, but it's easier to see that in retrospect; at the time, for a SEGA fan, it made sense because it cost as much as most new consoles until then (around $200). And being able to play games like Virtua Fighter and Star Wars Arcade on a Genesis was incredible.

[Sir Guntz]

On 4/5/2021 at 6:35 AM, sn8k said:

Or how a new disc format is born. Yet the fucking goofs couldnt implement the security system that was planned from the beginning.

 

That's actually not true. The GD-ROM was in fact very secure, it had security and encryption checks. Even for CD-ROM bootable media, there were security checks in place. The problem is the Karaoke MIL-CD bootable format had a flaw in how the executable binary "1st_read.bin" was normally supposed to be scrambled, hackers figured out how that scrambling worked. Once the Utopia boot disc was released, the floodgates opened for hacking Dreamcast games to boot using the MIL-CD format instead. The Dreamcast was very well secured for its day, even using a custom disc format, but had a fatal flaw in supporting a bootable CD format that ended up being exploitable.

 

People are quick to forget how tough the security was on the Saturn. Sure, modchips eventually became available, but they were far more complicated than PS1 modchips and it took over 20 years before someone finally cracked the security of the Saturn disc drive. The Saturn did not support anything like MIL-CD, the only boot option was regular old CD-ROM which was very well secured. The DC went a step further by utilizing a custom disc format that you couldn't even writable discs for. The DC was an evolution of the Saturn in security, but only for the GD-ROM format it seems.

 

This video explains it better.

 

 

 

22 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

It's ironic the 32X was mostly supported by SEGA of America since the Saturn was sold at a loss in the United States - well, mostly because of Sony's price war -, so it was confusing indeed to have the 32X competing with the Saturn.

 

But in Europe (at least in France), the Saturn was incredibly expensive at launch (around $500), so my brother and I got it later, with Panzer Dragon Zwei and Alien Trilogy. The 32X could seem expensive as well for what it was, but it's easier to see that in retrospect; at the time, for a SEGA fan, it made sense because it cost as much as most new consoles until then (around $200). And being able to play games like Virtua Fighter and Star Wars Arcade on a Genesis was incredible.

 

The 32X launched several months before the Saturn in the USA. The 32X being mostly supported by SOA had nothing to do with the Saturn being sold at a loss. By the time the Saturn launched, SOA was in the process of dumping the 32X.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sir Guntz

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Sir Guntz said:

The 32X being mostly supported by SOA had nothing to do with the Saturn being sold at a loss.

No, but that's not what I was trying to say. I meant that since the Saturn was a lot cheaper in the USA, the 32X felt more redundant there, even if it was released several months before.

[Sir Guntz]

7 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

No, but that's not what I was trying to say. I meant that since the Saturn was a lot cheaper in the USA, the 32X felt more redundant there, even if it was released several months before.

A lot cheaper? Cheaper than what? The Saturn launched in the USA at $399. Are you aware of Sony's 1995 PlayStation E3 presentation? Steve Race stepped up to the podium and said simply "$299" and walked off.

 

The 32X launched in November 1994 at $160. How is $399 for a Saturn in May a lot cheaper?

Edited May 8, 2021 by Sir Guntz

[Steven Pendleton]

6 hours ago, Sir Guntz said:

A lot cheaper? Cheaper than what? The Saturn launched in the USA at $399. Are you aware of Sony's 1995 PlayStation E3 presentation? Steve Race stepped up to the podium and said simply "$299" and walked off.

 

The 32X launched in November 1994 at $160. How is $399 for a Saturn in May a lot cheaper?

Saturn was cheaper in the USA than it was in France.