Is the Apple II closer to a home computer or a hobby computer?

[Mr SQL]

On 11/15/2020 at 4:50 AM, bluejay said:

This was brought up by a status update from @Keatah. Is the Apple II closer to home computers from Commodore, Atari, Tandy, etc. or hobby computers like the Altair and IMSAI?

I think Apple was closer to the hobby computers like the Altair and so was the Tandy Color Computer as opposed to their original TRS-80:

 

imo what made it a hobby computer was the precipitated inclination (which Apple certainly did right) and the ability to open the machine with enough space to hobby; Atari 400 and 800 qualify like the Color Computer, but not the VIC-20 or C64 or the 600/800XL form factor modeled after the 1977 TRS-80 "computer is [crammed] in the keyboard" hot seller design (folks were getting wary of hobby computers). 

 

[Hwlngmad]

Looking at the II's history, for me the Apple II went from a hobbyist computer for the home with the OG II to a home computer for hobbyists with the IIe Platinum as the computer slowly morphed and changed over time.  However, if I had to classify the Apple II, I would say it was a hobbyist home computer.  Fair enough?  Of course, opinions may vary, but just the way I see it.

[potatohead]

Personally, I always considered the Apple ][ series of computers more like workstations.  And that represented how I personally used the machines.  It's why I still have one.  (well two, but I don't run the GS much, unless I want to play GS games)

 

For example, a lot of 8 bit development for other machines and game consoles was done on Apple 2 machines.  Fast and big storage, 80 column display, co-processor cards, big RAM all were easily had, though doing so wasn't cheap.  Workstations generally aren't cheap, and for similar reasons.

 

The slots also meant robust interfacing.  One could make anything from an EEPROM programmer, to a full on emulator, slot it into the Apple and end up with a nice, fast, robust dev environment.

 

Similar things were done in the sciences, industrial automation, to name a couple.

 

And that all overlapped with the PC when it arrived too.

 

The rest boils down to configuration.  A home user might prioritize sound and a game controller, maybe two screens over bigger storage, or a ton of RAM.  

 

Business user might buy the RAM and storage, maybe an accelerator card.

 

I didn't pick either poll option.

Edited November 24, 2020 by potatohead

[wierd_w]

It has probably already been said, but the Apple II was created in the same vein as the Apple 1:

 

As close to "A real computer" (eg, a domestic version of a mainframe with a single seat) as one could get, on a home-owner's budget.

 

To attain that, a hyper-optimized architecture was created that got the very most bang possible, for as little buck spent.  To make it look swanky, Jobs gave it an iconic exterior; but all the things that make an apple II an apple II, came from Woz-- everything from the novel design of the floppy controller to the shared video and system memory. Cost savings while retaining as much high performance and reliability as possible, was the over-arching design philosophy.

 

It was meant to be a real computer, at a bargain price.  That's what it was.

[Keatah]

A lot in the Apple II's design requires 100% exclusive attention from the 6502.

 

This includes sound/clicks generated by the speaker. It's why complex music and sounds either slow a game or stop it completely.

 

Disk access, spindle and stepper motor control, latching in and transferring read/write data.

 

Any software clocks (BBS hacks really).

 

Someone correct me If I'm wrong, but the same circuit that tickles the speaker also generates the tones for cassette operations. Early digitized music sounded identical if played through the cassette port or the speaker.

 

[mutterminder]

When the Apple II was introduced in 1977,  I would argue that all "Microcomputers" as we called them then, were hobbyist computers.  Up to that point we had various single board microcomputers, or microprocessor trainers. We also had S-100 based micros, these were very expandable, but not cheap, and not easy to use for anything practical.  These early micros were most assuredly hobbyist computers. Of the so called "holy trinity" of micro computers introduced in 1977 (the Radio Shack TRS-80, the Commodore Pet 2001, and the Apple II), the Apple II was the most flexible for the microcomputer hobbyist, though it was also the most expensive of the three.  Still by comparison, the Apple II was less expensive to get into than an S-100 system.

 

It was the efforts of these early hobbyists that gave the Apple II and other micros a broader appeal, and paved the way for the true home computer.  In the 70's most people had no idea what a computer in the home would be good for. By the early 80's,  spreadsheets, word processors, database applications, not to mention video and computer games had been created and people bought computers with these applications in mind.

[Keatah]

A lot of times I hear the word "sophistication" used in conversation and description of the Apple II. Not sure if that applies. I know elegant and clever do. But there wasn't enough organized complexity in the circuit design to earn the term.

 

5 hours ago, mutterminder said:

It was the efforts of these early hobbyists that gave the Apple II and other micros a broader appeal, and paved the way for the true home computer. 

I would argue marketing and authors had an even bigger push. Oh sure the hobbyists and engineers did the work, most definitely. But marketing and writers of Hollywood were huge unstoppable forces behind conjuring up all sorts of uses and applications. As the old saying goes, "science fiction becomes science fact". All one has to do is watch the popular shows like 2001 and StarTrek and god knows how many other like-minded productions - to see concepts and ideas.

 

 

[zzip]

11 hours ago, Keatah said:

Oh sure the hobbyists and engineers did the work, most definitely. But marketing and writers of Hollywood were huge unstoppable forces behind conjuring up all sorts of uses and applications.

Changing the grades on your report card, hacking into NORAD and nearly starting WWIII  :)

[bluejay]

Hold on, how do I close this poll?

[Keatah]

Pulled out my "Consumer's Guide to Personal Computing and Microcomputers (c) 1978. And the Apple II bare motherboard form is listed right along with single board hobby computers and microprocessor trainers. Described in the same way. Exhibiting the same features.

 

Elsewhere in the guide, the traditional form of the Apple II as we're accustomed to is described as a computer in a cabinet. And nowhere does it mention "home computer". It's about a year too early for the term to have become widely accepted.

 

In both descriptions emphasis seems placed on memory capacities, form factors, and especially I/O connectors for keyboard, cassette, and video. Video output was still rather new back then. They said the Apple II had a dedicated section on the motherboard which was useful for generating signals for a modulator/TV or monitor.

 

These are the kinds of books I wished we had in school, and not stories about fake men performing equally fake herculean tasks. Greek mythology. No kid is interested in that crap.

[Frozone212]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:26 PM, Keatah said:

Pulled out my "Consumer's Guide to Personal Computing and Microcomputers (c) 1978. And the Apple II bare motherboard form is listed right along with single board hobby computers and microprocessor trainers. Described in the same way. Exhibiting the same features.

 

Elsewhere in the guide, the traditional form of the Apple II as we're accustomed to is described as a computer in a cabinet. And nowhere does it mention "home computer". It's about a year too early for the term to have become widely accepted.

 

In both descriptions emphasis seems placed on memory capacities, form factors, and especially I/O connectors for keyboard, cassette, and video. Video output was still rather new back then. They said the Apple II had a dedicated section on the motherboard which was useful for generating signals for a modulator/TV or monitor.

 

These are the kinds of books I wished we had in school, and not stories about fake men performing equally fake herculean tasks. Greek mythology. No kid is interested in that crap.

Well, Mythological tales fascinate some and can be used as writing fodder for fanfiction so it's not a total loss. I made a fanfic about Troy being destroyed by the Heavens, Necromorphs, orcs and others. 

[JamesD]

The II series could probably be either, but...
The Apple II (original) is more hobby than personal
The II+ on were more home, but didn't eliminate the hobby aspect.  They just didn't require as much know how.
Machines like the IIc are pretty much personal since there are no slots and it's intended to be a closed system
 

[Baldrick]

The Apple II may have been both a hobbyist computer (esp the original II and II+) and a home computer.

 

BUT...

Visicalc, AppleWriter and later AppleWorks (which was the number one software package sold for a while) turned the Apple II into a bona-fide business computer for its time.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Baldrick