New Member - Is there a replacement for stackpole-style 800 keyboards?

[Krenath]

I'm new to this forum, so pardon me if I'm asking a question whose answer is out there.  I've done a good bit of searching and haven't seen it if it is.

Has anyone created a new replacement for Stackpole-style 800 keyboards?  Or a PCB file I could download and have made?

I've just recently dug up my old 800 from 1983 as well as a 130XE, 1050 drive, 410 tape recorder, XM301 modem, XEP-80, and even an ICD PR:Connection. 

I'd like to get some or all of these up and running, but time has taken its toll on some of the components, and the keyboard for the 800, while complete, has keys that stick down and broken corners on a lot of the square key posts.

I'm thinking about creating a drop-in replacement PCB to fit in the original location and replace the old keyswitches with modern Cherry-style switches. 
Aside from measurements and layout, this shouldn't be all that difficult. 
While not a perfect match, it's possible to get custom keycaps printed in brown and tan so it even looks the part.

But if someone's already created it, I'd love to just buy one or download the PCB Gerber files and go. 
 

[gilsaluki]

I believe B&C Computervisions (MyAtari on Ebay) has some NOS 800 KBs.  Not cheap, but may save you time and hassle.

[+slx]

10 minutes ago, gilsaluki said:

I believe B&C Computervisions (MyAtari on Ebay) has some NOS 800 KBs.  Not cheap, but may save you time and hassle.

They are sold with a caution that keys still may fall out because the plungers have become brittle with age. What we'd need are newly made plungers but these seem to be beyond current household 3D printing technology.

[Krenath]

I've ordered a NOS 800 keyboard (And an old Commodore 1702 so I have something to view video on).

But for exactly the point that slx mentioned above, I think I'm stuck on the idea of a drop-in upgrade keyboard.  The plungers on my keyboard were fine when I last used it and just existing on a shelf for 30+ years since I last used it, they've gotten...icky.  I expect the NOS keyboard to have similar issues.  If it's something I can remedy by slapping together a design in EasyEDA and having a few printed up, well, it wouldn't have all the age-related stress issues.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Krenath

[Stormbringer]

17 minutes ago, Krenath said:

This would be a dream come true.. I've seen people do it for other systems and since then have drooled at the thought. Might even be able to print a converter for the cherry switches to use original key-caps?

 

[Krenath]

Quote

This would be a dream come true.. I've seen people do it for other systems and since then have drooled at the thought. Might even be able to print a converter for the cherry switches to use original key-caps?

I've compared my original 800 keycaps to the Cherry ones in my current PC keyboard.  The square part that fits into the original plunger is about the same width but thicker front-to-back than the CHerry plunger so just making an insert with a plus-shaped hole doesn't look like it would work.  It would have to hold the original key up much higher to make room for the adaptor.  Getting the Atari key to fit directly on a Cherry keycap would require cutting up the original keycap and I think that would be tragic. 

It would be far easier to have original style key labels printed on new keycaps. 

But just think how many original keycaps would then be available to those wishing to restore their original boards!

[+ZuluGula]

I have second 800 that I got couple years ago for a reasonable price. Electrically it works fine, the case is yellowed and it has one crack in the back, but the stackpole keyboard is bad and it's missing the Control key. And I have big dilemma what to do with it. NOS keyboard from myatari is expensive. I could put a TransKey in it and try to sell it this way. The only option for this computer would be a parts machine for 1088XEL, but I have a hard time to dismantle it. 

[Krenath]

I'm not sure that my approach would be cheaper than a NOS keyboard.  I'll have to check. 

As far as parts go, the PC board would be cheap, but you'd then need to get all the hardware, which I haven't yet priced out:

• 57 Cherry keyswitches
• Custom keycaps,
  • 51 x 1U wide,
  • 4x 1.5U,
  • 1x 2U
    • plus its stabilizer bar and mounts
  • and 1 spacebar 9U wide
    • plus its stabilizer bar and mounts
• Ribbon cable
• Ribbon cable connector

Then you'd solder it all up, mount it, and go.

While it might not be cheaper, it would definitely be more durable due to lack of age.
 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Krenath

[Stormbringer]

I personally think it would be worth it. I have two 800's, one with a dead keyboard and one I'm sure will die. I'd have no problem spending the money for a solution that would resolve the issue

[+DrVenkman]

I think this is a VERY worthy idea. You can have custom keycaps made in various colors and layouts; no need for any kind of hack-y adhesive labels or anything like that.

 

The hard part, aside from biting the bullet on the cost, would be assembly. I've found far more retro-enthusiasts who are NOT handy with a screwdriver or soldering iron than are. 

[Krenath]

Here's a fun thought:  

It might be possible to add two F keys to either side of a more modern-sized spacebar and still fit in the original space.

1.  The majority of the key matrix is the same between the 800 and 800xl and 1200xl.

2.  The 800's spacebar is *really* wide.

3.  The key matrix has space for five unused key combinations, four of which are used on the 1200xl for the F keys.  No idea what the fifth does..
4.  Another possibility would be to add an extra key and an internal header to allow wiring up the disk-change key for the Incognito mod.

And, of course, I could just create board layouts for all the above ideas so if you're not into changing the extra keys you don't have to deal with them..

[Krenath]

Here's how the physical key layout is coming along.  They gray spaces are the potential optional keys if the 9-key-wide spacebar is reduced to a 4-key-wide.  I'll keep playing with it once I find the dimensions of the 9-key-wide spacebar to see if it's possible to make a single board with all the optional holes needed to make whichever versions one prefers...

 

Oh yeah.. I chose to use component layouts with backlight LEDs just in case someone wanted to implement them...  They could be used for backlights, disk activity lights, power lights, whatever.
 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Krenath

[Krenath]

Little bit more progress on the board layout and schematic. 
I need to make sure nothing is messed up with my schematic or layout, and find a component model for a 2U wide left shift key.

On the schematic, the dotted outlines are around the 1200XL keys that 800s don't have. 
Gray squares are row/column mappings that don't exist.
 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Krenath

[Krenath]

Now I just need to find a website that'll let me order custom-printed keycaps in a custom layout...

 

[+Spancho]

Have look into that post as well, as there are maybe some interesting links in for your project.

[The V-Man]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATARI-800-KEYBOARD-NEW/133181412981?hash=item1f023b1675:g:RNMAAOSwbV1dhS2R

 

Here is a listing of supposedly new Stackpole 800 keyboards.  They are not cheap, but there they are if you need one. Of course they were made in the 80s so even if new, I'm sure the plastic has still aged.

Edited November 19, 2020 by The V-Man

[Stormbringer]

Hows this coming along? I've finally gotten a new 800 mylar but its not working... Hate trying to fix these keyboards!

[Krenath]

I've gotten five boards made up and bought about 60 Cherry black keyswitches and gotten them soldered to one of the boards.  
I'm still trying to figure out what's best to cannibalize for the ribbon cable connector so I haven't mounted it into an 800 to test yet.  Hoping to do that this weekend.

I still haven't found a cost-effective solution to keycaps, so for the moment I've stolen standard keycaps off an old keyboard and I think I'll just use a label printer so I don't go insane trying to hit the character I want from memory.

It already feels better just fooling with it as is.  I really want to get this mounted because even my new-old-stock keyboard, a great improvement over my original, is already cracking in the corners of the keycap holders.
 

I have noticed that the distance from the coruit board to the tops of the new keys is about the same as the distance from the mounting holes on the old keyboard to the *bottoms* of the keys.  This might end up meaning that this first revision's keys don't stick up above the case of the 800.  That gave me some ideas, though, for making it into two boards:  One that mounts to the original mounting holes on the case and one that sits on top of that with spacers.  That would also give me room for other ideas, such as adding in a microcontroller that could potentially translate keypresses from modern keys to the appropriate output to the Atari. 

While I love the classic look and layout, I find I keep tripping over my fingers typing on it and can't affordably duplicate the keycaps.  But if I could add an onboard Arduino that could poll the key matrix and send a translated key...  I would no longer have to type shift-8 instead of shift-2 for an @ symbol and I could make dedicated arrow keys near the spacebar for cursor controls...

 

[Stormbringer]

Hole-y crap you ain't messing around! that looks amazing!

 

Could you somehow use an old IDE cable?

[Krenath]

That's one of the first things I thought about using, but I don't have an old-style one laying about right now. 

I do have a ribbon cable with individual female pin connectors that I could use for testing and maybe superglue them together into a single block so I'm not always connecting it one wire at a time.  

[+bob1200xl]

I think you can use a dual-row connector - just use half the wires. I could probably find a couple of IDE cables 'laying about'...

 

Bob

 

[Krenath]

Installed and wired using an IDE cable I finally found laying about.  Worked quite smoothly. I don't think I want to go back to wires soldered to the keyboard PCB ever again. I may add right-angle headers to my original keyboard pcb as well. 

The keys are very low in the case.  Almost flush with the case itself, which makes for an uncomfortable typing experience even though the keys individually feel fantastic.  
 

I am thinking the next revision to the board should be smaller to clear the case and use a separate backplate the shape of the current version PCB and standoffs to both strengthen and lift the keyboard to a normal typing height. 
 

Every key works as expected, so the key matrix is correct.  I did have to make and solder in jumper wires because the Cherry switches are usually used with diodes in modern keyboards to be able to sense more keypresses at once.  I think I'll do a little reading on that and see how the Atari may or may not benefit from the same. 

[+ZuluGula]

Yue could also try to source some toller key caps.

[_The Doctor__]

13.5 KAT , nice

[Krenath]

So I went to PimpMyKeyboard.com to order some brown SA keycaps.  They only had TBN brown for most of the keys, but only had TGH brown for the spacebar.  TGH would definitely be closer but still too light a color. 
$120 and three days later, I had a couple bags of brown keycaps to play with.

The SA keycaps are much taller than the generic ones I stole from another keyboard and so stand up and a much more comfortable height, though still lower than original.

Then I found a white-on-clear cartridge for my labelmaker so I can see what it looks like until I find a way to print on or laser-engrave the keycaps.  

It's definitely different and totally functional like this.

I may order some white keys and test to see if I can dye the plastic a better color with something like Rit fabric dye...