Converting a NTSC 800 to PAL

[Gunstar]

As the title says. I purchased a NOS or refurbished 800 PAL CPU board, I don't recall which, from MyAtari, but it had all the latest versions of the main IC's on it; 6502C and XL/XE PAL model number GTIA & Antic (they all have Atari's genuine replacement part holo-stickers on them as does the board) on the board. I installed it when I was installing the Incognito board, and since the Incognito works with either PAL or NTSC systems, and the fact that the PAL CPU board had a PAL crystal on-board, I figured that would be enough for the conversion, but I still get a black and white only picture through my S-video-to-VGA converter that is both PAL/NTSC compatible (and works great with my 1200XL that I converted to PAL), so was that wishful thinking on my part? I know the 1200XL (any XL/XE) conversion for true PAL need both PAL GTIA and Antic and the extra circuitry on the PAL GTIA board (Dropcheck's), and it has a PAL crystal on it too. But the motherboard crystal must also be PAL. So I believe I have to also still replace the crystal on the NTSC 800 motherboard as well for the PAL color to work properly? I also think I might vaguely remember mention of a line that might need to be connected between the motherboard and a CPU pin to possibly? I can't seem to find anything on it in searches done in this forum or on a browser search engine.

 

In the mean time I had re-installed the NTSC CPU board and was just going to wait for the release of the Sophia 2 board. But I have decided I don't want to wait any longer, especially if I just need another PAL crystal, and a wire to convert to PAL now. I about to do some more upgrades to my 800 right now (connect Turbo Freezer 2011 to Incognito PBI for one), so I figure I might as well do the PAL conversion at the same time.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Gunstar

[+DrVenkman]

I can't speak to the work required for conversion per se, but PAL systems have two clock crystals - a main system clock and a separate PAL colorburst crystal. Without both of those, you won't have color. 

[Gunstar]

9 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I can't speak to the work required for conversion per se, but PAL systems have two clock crystals - a main system clock and a separate PAL colorburst crystal. Without both of those, you won't have color. 

Thanks, my guess is that the crystal on the CPU board is merely for the colorburst then, and I need to replace the motherboard crystal too, which I guessed would be the case all along, but didn't have one on hand and so tried without it, hoping against better judgment, that the crystal on the CPU board was somehow enough. That's probably all I needed to know, if I'm miss-remembering  about another wire to the CPU.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Gunstar

[+Spancho]

I converted this year a 400 to PAL.

I put in tf_hh SCCC card and 48/52KB memory upgrade.

The PAL crystal for the main board I got from tf_hh as well.

So that is actually all you need to change.

 

But since you are in the US it will make no sense to send just one crystal over the pont.

 

[flashjazzcat]

Deleted; wrong model.

Edited November 23, 2020 by flashjazzcat

[Mrarkus]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:25 PM, Gunstar said:

Thanks, my guess is that the crystal on the CPU board is merely for the colorburst then, and I need to replace the motherboard crystal too, which I guessed would be the case all along, but didn't have one on hand and so tried without it, hoping against better judgment, that the crystal on the CPU board was somehow enough. That's probably all I needed to know, if I'm miss-remembering  about another wire to the CPU.

 

Did you ever finish the conversion Gunstar? Curious of results.

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, Mrarkus said:

 

Did you ever finish the conversion Gunstar? Curious of results.

I've been waiting on a PAL crystal to arrive in the post. It was supposed to be here on Monday according to estimated delivery, but when I checked Monday it was somewhere in Texas, not too far from me here in Oklahoma, so since it didn't arrive today, I'm hoping for tomorrow. I haven't checked tracking again yet...

 

As soon as it arrives I'll install it, along with a Turbo Freezer that arrived about a month ago, though I'm waiting on a cable for the Incognito PBI too. Actually I'm also installing a real PBI port out the back of the 800 too, since the Turbo Freezer board and cartridge is too large to install in the memory card expansion area (or even just the cartridge directly connected to the Incognito PBI), and I don't want to install it internally elsewhere since I won't be able to access the cartridge without opening the case every time, so I'm back to my original plan of a PBI port out the back on the left side opposite to the PSU board since there is room on that side. Once upon a time I had the idea of using the hidden edge connector behind the CPU board and making a PBI adapter to connect to it, but decided it's just too much work and a convoluted idea anyway (I just liked the thought of making use of it).

 

Luckily the Turbo Freezer came with both XL and XE boards, so I don't have to make one from scratch, just modify the bottom half of the case and can mount the XE board in the 800 with it's pass-thru as my 800 port. I'll connect the ribbon cable coming from the Incognito to it. Then the Turbo Freezer XL board will plug into the PBI port and be on the exterior rear where I can easily access it. This will also allow me to use The Turbo Freezer still with my 1200XL too, on which I previously made a PBI port (hacked out of a poor condition 600XL board and case I use for salvage parts). There are plenty more pictures of my upgraded and modded 1200XL I posted here on Atari Age a while back, if you do a search, if you want to see better pictures of it, the picture below is all I could find, ATM, in my files, to post here quickly.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Gunstar

[Mrarkus]

8 hours ago, Gunstar said:

I've been waiting on a PAL crystal to arrive in the post. It was supposed to be here on Monday according to estimated delivery, but when I checked Monday it was somewhere in Texas, not too far from me here in Oklahoma, so since it didn't arrive today, I'm hoping for tomorrow. I haven't checked tracking again yet...

 

As soon as it arrives I'll install it, along with a Turbo Freezer that arrived about a month ago, though I'm waiting on a cable for the Incognito PBI too. Actually I'm also installing a real PBI port out the back of the 800 too, since the Turbo Freezer board and cartridge is too large to install in the memory card expansion area (or even just the cartridge directly connected to the Incognito PBI), and I don't want to install it internally elsewhere since I won't be able to access the cartridge without opening the case every time, so I'm back to my original plan of a PBI port out the back on the left side opposite to the PSU board since there is room on that side. Once upon a time I had the idea of using the hidden edge connector behind the CPU board and making a PBI adapter to connect to it, but decided it's just too much work and a convoluted idea anyway (I just liked the thought of making use of it).

 

Luckily the Turbo Freezer came with both XL and XE boards, so I don't have to make one from scratch, just modify the bottom half of the case and can mount the XE board in the 800 with it's pass-thru as my 800 port. I'll connect the ribbon cable coming from the Incognito to it. Then the Turbo Freezer XL board will plug into the PBI port and be on the exterior rear where I can easily access it. This will also allow me to use The Turbo Freezer still with my 1200XL too, on which I previously made a PBI port (hacked out of a poor condition 600XL board and case I use for salvage parts). There are plenty more pictures of my upgraded and modded 1200XL I posted here on Atari Age a while back, if you do a search, if you want to see better pictures of it, the picture below is all I could find, ATM, in my files, to post here quickly.

 

Yeah, checking tracking right now can be detrimental to your health I think  

 

That is definitely a sweet 1200XL, I have a couple I've worked on over the years, but my present passion is the 800. I have finalized my design to move all side ports and switches to the back, and add DVI and 3.5mm audio. Taking my sweet time as I want it to be perfect. For now I have decided not to do PBI, but stuff like Turbo Freezer is tempting... We shall see how phase one turns out, then I might be back for more! Just waiting on my SCCC card, and hopefully can get a Sophia 2 soon.

[Gunstar]

@Mrarkus good luck on moving the side ports and switches, I had a lot of fun doing that with my 800 and love not having cables out the side of my 800 anymore (besides power switch and input). I'll be installing a Sophia 2 as well, I haven't decided yet where on the rear it will go exactly, probably above the PSU board on the right, since above the PBI would cause issues with the cable getting in the way of the Turbo Freezer cart, since it will be sticking up right there.

 

I had thought about the SCCC card, but I'm not sure what use I have for it since the Sopia 2 will be used most of the time for video output; I won't even be using my S-video port I installed much anymore with the DVI out. I thought about installing the Sophia 2 in my 1200XL instead, since I modded the 800's video with a resister change to the luminance and S-video out is pretty amazing now, but I've plans for a VBXE and Rapidus for my 1200XL, so that idea had no legs.

 

I upgraded the 1200XL's video with the Supervideo 2.1 mod years ago too, and it's got an incredible S-video out as well, but VBXE and Sophia 2 will obsolete the video upgrades I've done on both. I do like the idea of both machines being different beasts with the 800 having the new Sophia 2 GTIA graphic modes, and the 1200XL having the new VBXE graphic modes and Rapidus. I'm still keeping the 32-in-1 OS in the 1200XL since there are compatibility issues with U1MB and the Rapidus anyway, and I already have 576K too on the 1200XL thanks to the Syscheck XL I have plugged into the 1200XL PBI, and Incognito on my 800 is pretty much the same as U1MB+Side 2. I figure why have two Atari's upgraded to be essentially the same machine, it seems redundant to me and this way I get to experience two very different yet compatible machines that I can use for different projects and uses.

 

My 1200XL was already converted to PAL with Dropcheck GTIA board, but once I've converted the 800 to PAL I'll revert the 1200XL back to NTSC so I still have the best of both PAL and NTSC machines. I'm restoring and upgrading a 1200XL for a pal who lives in the U.K. anyway, so this way I have the GTIA PAL board to put in his 1200XL so he has no issues using it in PAL land.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Gunstar

[mimo]

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

 

 

 I do like the idea of both machines being different beasts with the 800 having the new Sophia 2 GTIA graphic modes, and the 1200XL having the new VBXE graphic modes and Rapidus.

You may want to read through this thread before doing that 

 

[Gunstar]

47 minutes ago, mimo said:

You may want to read through this thread before doing that 

 

I already have, which is EXACTLY why I said My 1200Xl WILL NOT be getting the U1MB...maybe you should re-read what I just wrote above again? No one says they have any issues with VBXE/Rapidus  alone, only when the U1MB is in the mix too. But thanks for looking out for me.😉

Edited December 9, 2020 by Gunstar

[mimo]

5 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I already have, which is EXACTLY why I said My 1200Xl WILL NOT be getting the U1MB...maybe you should re-read what I just wrote above again?

Maybe I should, that or not try to help someone out when I have been in A+E with my poorly daughter for 2 nights.
That thread also shows issues with VBXE and Rapidus, or did I read that wrong too?

Edited December 9, 2020 by mimo

[Gunstar]

11 minutes ago, mimo said:

Maybe I should, that or not try to help someone out when I have been in A+E with my poorly daughter for 2 nights.
That thread also shows issues with VBXE and Rapidus, or did I read that wrong too?

I might have missed that bit, but all the issues seem to be centered around resets, and I have no issue power-cycling the machine, I've done it for decades without issue, and only just started using cold resets instead of power-cycling since I installed the Incognito in my 800. It's all a non-issue for me.

[Mrarkus]

@Gunstar If I looked at it rationally, I'd probably have a hard time justifying the SCCC card with Sophia 2 installed as well, however it's just fun to have all the "new" stuff I got a NOS MB and power board from B & C so the SCCC, especially with UAV built-in, completes it. Having said that, my main 800 has a really good stock S-Video output on my Dell 2001FP monitor. Much better than the other two 800s, and comparable to my SV 2.1 1200XL. Only UAV-equipped 800XL looks better, and not by much. Fun with aging electronics and LCD screens!

 

My end-game is to have both NTSC and PAL 800s set up. The only long-term issue with this is the darn keyboard. I spend a lot of time actually using it, and sooner or later we will be out of working keyboards for the 800s. Really wish somebody came up with a nice drop-in replacement. 

[Gunstar]

4 hours ago, Mrarkus said:

@Gunstar If I looked at it rationally, I'd probably have a hard time justifying the SCCC card with Sophia 2 installed as well, however it's just fun to have all the "new" stuff I got a NOS MB and power board from B & C so the SCCC, especially with UAV built-in, completes it. Having said that, my main 800 has a really good stock S-Video output on my Dell 2001FP monitor. Much better than the other two 800s, and comparable to my SV 2.1 1200XL. Only UAV-equipped 800XL looks better, and not by much. Fun with aging electronics and LCD screens!

 

My end-game is to have both NTSC and PAL 800s set up. The only long-term issue with this is the darn keyboard. I spend a lot of time actually using it, and sooner or later we will be out of working keyboards for the 800s. Really wish somebody came up with a nice drop-in replacement. 

I understand. I wasn't trying to knock your using both SCCC and Sophia 2. I myself was strongly thinking of getting a SCCC board myself, since, IIRC, like the Sophia 2, has the ability to output in either NTSC or PAL, but since I had already improved the video out with a luminance resister mod, and IIRC, the PAL CPU board was cheaper. I payed $20 for it from MyAtari (B & C) and included all the chips (spare IC's) I decided to get it instead.

 

I also just recently purchased both a MB and PSU board as spares, I found them for dirt cheap on eBay, a miracle in itself. I could not believe the incredible buy-it-now prices and instantly purchased them. They both work great and look like NOS equipment.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atari-800-Main-Board-Motherboard-POKEY-CHIP-NOT-INCLUDED-1/174434476217?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atari-800-Parts-Power-Board/174451658668?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

I agree about the keyboards. I have the Hi-tek keyboard in my 800 and I actually found a Hi-tek brand AT keyboard from 1982 on eBay that I purchased for $17 + $9 for shipping, that is on the way, in hopes that it uses the same type of wings, and plungers as the Atari one, I've no idea if it does, but since it was so cheap I thought it was worth taking the chance to have so many spare parts, since MyAtari  only has the Stackpole type left for sale, for $100 and it's the worst of all for breaking and MyAtari warns they are sold as-is and may already have cracked plungers.  It should arrive within the next week, and I'll see.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-HI-TEK-Clicky-AT-Keyboard-RT101-NEC-Technologies-Tested/402390804119?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

 

 

The PAL crystal did arrive today, and I just finished installing it and re-assembling my 800 enough to test it. And I now have a working PAL 800 with excellent S-video out to use until I finally get the 800 version of Sophia 2. The image on-screen in real life is sharper than the picture I took, by the way.

 

As a matter of fact, my wanting a Sophia 2 has absolutely nothing to do with the DVI output, I'm perfectly happy with my 800's S-video which feeds into an Ambery video-to-VGA upscaler/converter (the image below is VGA). The only reason I want it is the upgraded GTIA replacement with the new graphic modes.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

With my spare MB and PSU, and the NTSC CPU board I just removed, plus the OS and memory boards removed when I installed the Incognito, I can actually assemble an entire 800, less keyboard and case, for an absolute fraction of what they sell for now on eBay these days!

[Dmitry]

Hey you all, I thought you might find this interesting, as you know from that link, I have an Atari 1200XL, with Rapidus, U1MB and VBXE, in fact I had two systems like that since 2016.  Neither worked right.

 

And, as it happens, I've written to various folks that do a lot of installs about this subject over the years, ...FJC, Lotharek, etc.

 

Just so I don't confuse what they said, I'll quote FJC from his website: "Earlier this year, I was informed (by Lotharek) that the U1MB/Rapidus compatibility problems (which have blighted many installations for over four years) have been confirmed to be caused by the Rapidus accelerator itself."  

 

 And, I was told by another vendor, they won't guarantee the install the Rapidus by itself, even in a 130XE.  They'll try it.  But if it doesn't work, then it won't be installed.  That's without even the u1mb!

And as for the u1mb in a 1200xl - even by itself that is hit and miss.

 

All these Atari folks are super careful and ethical, I really appreciate that.  Lotharek is very up front about Rapidus issues.   FJC is a class act.   I'm very impressed with the communication, but it is a pity about rapidus.  Honestly, nobody has dinged the VBXE at all - or the combination of the two.  It's basically been 1200XL doesn't always work with u1mb, and rapidus may not work anywhere and definitely don't put rapidus/u1mb in a 1200xl! doh!

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Dmitry

[+DrVenkman]

2 hours ago, Dmitry said:

And as for the u1mb in a 1200xl - even by itself that is hit and miss.

Not at all. The only thing "hit or miss" is people attempting the installation without knowing there's more to a 1200XL install than other machines.
 

1) The stock 1200XL has two OS ROMs, a high ROM and a low. You have to mod the board to accept a single 16K OS ROM through a single socket. That means rearranging several jumpers on the 1200XL motherboard and running a single wire under the board from a pin on SALLY to one of those jumper locations. All of this is set out here in the first half of the second paragraph. 
2) A sizable number of 1200XL's do not have 28-pin OS sockets; if the installer is working with one like that, he or she will need to replace the existing socket or at the very least clean out the empty through holes and install some female SIP headers for the U1MB OS ROM ribbon cable. 

3) The bus of the 1200XL might have more capacitance or noise than other A8 machines; if the owner has stability or reset issues, then replacing the 74LS08 chip with a faster 74F08 will definitely help clean up and improve the buffered Pih2 signal, which is what the entire Atari system uses to coordinate bus activity. If that's not enough and if the system has some issues with Reset, soldering a 100pf ceramic cap between Reset and Ground on the U1MB should clear that up.

 

None of this work is complicated nor expensive; the 74F08 chip is literally 52 cents. The 100pf cap is even cheaper - literally pennies at most. It just takes soldering skill to do the work, and the knowledge/experience with the 1200XL to know the extra steps that may be necessary for any given install. 

 

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, Dmitry said:

Hey you all, I thought you might find this interesting, as you know from that link, I have an Atari 1200XL, with Rapidus, U1MB and VBXE, in fact I had two systems like that since 2016.  Neither worked right.

 

And, as it happens, I've written to various folks that do a lot of installs about this subject over the years, ...FJC, Lotharek, etc.

 

Just so I don't confuse what they said, I'll quote FJC from his website: "Earlier this year, I was informed (by Lotharek) that the U1MB/Rapidus compatibility problems (which have blighted many installations for over four years) have been confirmed to be caused by the Rapidus accelerator itself."  

 

 And, I was told by another vendor, they won't guarantee the install the Rapidus by itself, even in a 130XE.  They'll try it.  But if it doesn't work, then it won't be installed.  That's without even the u1mb!

And as for the u1mb in a 1200xl - even by itself that is hit and miss.

 

All these Atari folks are super careful and ethical, I really appreciate that.  Lotharek is very up front about Rapidus issues.   FJC is a class act.   I'm very impressed with the communication, but it is a pity about rapidus.  Honestly, nobody has dinged the VBXE at all - or the combination of the two.  It's basically been 1200XL doesn't always work with u1mb, and rapidus may not work anywhere and definitely don't put rapidus/u1mb in a 1200xl! doh!

 

 

 

 

There's a capacitor on the reset line of the U1MB which as far as I know fixes it on all machines, 1200XL included.  I've never heard of VBXE causing a problem in any machine.  The only upgrade of the three which is still faulty is the Rapidus.  To be fully transparent there is a hardware bug with U1MB and Incognito that affects so far, 2 out of every other single piece of software released in the history of the 8-bit machines.  Other than that, it's a rock solid upgrade.  I have 4 U1MBs and was on the bets team for Incognito so I have multiple of them.

[Dmitry]

Ah, look people have strong feelings on this, i get that.

 

I wasn't trying to offer my own opinion on u1mb general reliability in a 1200xl, I only have my own experience and it always was with a rapidus, which we now know isn't a workable combination.  I don't have any experience installing anything, of course.

 

As a user, I go mostly to the most well known Atari technicians with decades of experience - like yourselves, I'm not saying they have more important views, not at all.  I'm just saying like yourselves they have this tremendous wealth of experience, and so I seek out their opinions.  I thought it might be valuable to share because what they told me was quite the surprise in some ways, but nevertheless, at this point I will say I've shared a third hand opinion, not my own.  Objection sustained, I withdraw the comment.

 

Of course, this isn't a survey of Atari dealers lol, I just have a borked Atari and have been pricing repairs....I can't wait to get it fixed.  

I do understand why people like the u1mb, I don't. But, for the right use case it's a well supported piece of kit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Dmitry

[Gunstar]

My situation is unique to most 1200XL owners who may want to install U1MB/VBXE/Rapidus combinations. Currently, my 1200XL was first upgraded to 600XL/800XL compatibility, as @DrVenkman mentioned, to the 16K 28-pin rom and internal Basic, and this upgrade also requires upgrading the MMU to XL/XE MMU. Second, all 74LSxx IC's and other IC's have been upgraded to more modern, faster versions, though I used 74HC series in my case, which have been working wonderfully for stability and PHI2 timing. Precision sockets on many key IC's. I make sure my PSU supplies ample amperage to handle all upgrades. I've done a DIY PBI buss upgrade, and I use a Syscheck XL for my extended memory and additional alternate OS's and this board actually helps with PHI2 stability on the buss as it has it's own PHI2 signal. I then use Dropcheck's Super SDX cartridge with RTC and MyIDE II piggy-backed for HDD and much more, it has full PBI compatibility/abilities too.

 

I did have some initial issues when I first upgraded all of this, but it turned out to be a bad, but mostly working MMU that I replaced and it's been rock-solid for me in every way since. I've had IC's and basic components fail over the years that needed replacing, but that's normal for any vintage machine, but zero stability issues as long as all components are in working order.

 

I still intend to install a Rapidus in it first, and I'll see how that works with my ad-hock upgraded system, which has all worked like a charm with each other except a couple of occasions that were issues with GAL chips failing and replacements solved the issues. I never intended or intend to use U1MB/SIDE2 in it, I have the equivalent of that with my Incognito 800 now anyway. Just VBXE and Rapidus. If Rapidus works well enough for me, and I ad a VBXE and issues arise, I'll remove the VBXE and sell it and either stick with just the GTIA there, or get a Sophia 2 and see if it gets along with the Rapidus. If Rapidus, is too unstable I'll remove it, and maybe just go with VBXE upgrade, but I'd rather have Rapidus over VBXE if it's stable enough for me in my system (I don't mind power-cycling if resets and cold resets screw things up).

 

I appreciate the warnings and heads-up from people. but I do have an associates degree in electronics (which I went to school for solely to be able to fix and maintain and upgrade electronics as a hobby), the right tools and equipment and 25 years of both hobby and restore/refurbish and reselling I did for a few years a decade ago for extra income on all kinds of electronics, computers and consoles. DIY mods and upgrades and maintenance on Atari 8-bits, ST's, Jaguar, 2600, 7800 and other vintage brand consoles and computers. And I can figure out issues and fix them myself, I don't have to rely on others to install, troubleshoot, diagnose, repair. So it's no big deal to me, if I have to reverse an upgrade because of compatibility issue with other upgrades, etc.

 

This isn't to say I never need help, advice, etc. I don't know everything about the engineering design of computers, or much at all with machines I have no experience working on before, like my 800, and so I didn't know for sure if I need a main board PAL crystal too or if the CPU board one was enough, even thought I suspected not from my knowledge and experience, or if might be more to it, like, for example, when I converted my 1200XL to PAL with Dropcheck's board, there was also a wire that runs from the board to the CPU, and I didn't know if something similar might still be needed on an 800, which I found out from the great people here, I did not. I knew other NTSC Atari's needed two crystals for PAL conversion from experience, but the 800 is a much different beast with it's buss and interchangeable cards, that I'm not 100% familiar with yet. My 1200XL I know inside and out, upside and down, and like the back of my hand.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Gunstar