_The Doctor__ Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, drac030 said: Note that I am not the reseller nor the designer. Their e-mail addresses are, I think, either known or easy to find, so I am sort-of unsure what is the use of directing the complaints at me. I am not their boss nor their father and not even their mother-in-law. If they are reproducible, please tell me, how do I reproduce them. For now, if what you call "bugs" occur on your system, but not on mine, Beetle's (?) or several others, then it seems to me as most likely that the ultimate cause of any bad behaviour must lie in the computer itself - in some of them, that is. So the question is: what I have to break in my 65XE to reproduce the bad behaviour. Thanks in advance. it's not just tf_hh, that's the point... talk to FJC also, or scan the forums, including this thread even... anecdotes abound, something is as they say afoot. The problem is they both are frustrated as are all the others and it still appears there aren't any answers for these folks. Others who expressed their experience and issues publicly as well as privately did not get the issues resolved either. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: anecdotes abound I am not interested in anecdotes. I am asking a concrete question: if this is, as stated, "reproducible", so how do I reproduce that, or in other words, how do I break my computer to see the behaviour @tf_hh observes in his. Edited March 2, 2021 by drac030 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) I read the weird issue and then somewhere in the explanation mentions of reset are in there, seems a commonality, so I'd guess pressing reset with different devices installed alongside it and each thing initiating their own form of reset might be the place to start looking. Sort of like when people have a make and model of car, and they all have the same base but with different options. All come to the dealership and say, it works fine except when I press this button weirdness happens. Slightly different weird things all centered around that button. Eventually someone in the service department or back at the factory and engineering will figure on checking what that button is up to in the grand scheme of why the cars are getting a bad rap and fix it. Just because half the cars don't exhibit the behavior or they don't press the button doesn't mean you ignore the problem, that much is certain. Does the reset fix it? Does the reset mess it up? Is a reset handled differently when issued from software versus hardware or from another piece of harware, is it initiated by the motherboard, the add on board, or the speeder? There are many way to trigger the issue. The end user normally doesn't have a clue. That's why the guys who designed and built it need to take a look. It's a decent mystery, maybe if some one want to solve it they could see if the effect is cumulative, each thing loading down the reset line or some other signal weakening it until is acts up. The non cooperative equipment being sent to whoever might help. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: I'd guess pressing reset with different devices installed alongside it and each thing initiating there own form of reset might be the place to start looking Certainly, but first your system must show the behaviour so that you could try to look for its (the behaviour's) cause. Mine does not - reset always works fine, I even have demonstrated that on a video - so I am asking for the third time, what do I do that it exhibits the (or any bad) behaviour. I naively hoped that @tf_hh will find the cause, he does not want to waste his time, that is okay, but he also said that the issue he experienced is reproducible. So the question is what do I do to reproduce it, if it is reproducible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) my good response dissipated so as happens on AA from time to time so I retyped it... no nearly as well as my first but it conveys the thought... I'd suggest people who want the problem fixed may want to send the problematic items all to whoever is willing to track it down. I still suspect it's like a few things over the years that only work on the very best above spec machines and fails on most others that are in spec but weaker as a whole. SO it doesn't need to be broken, it's in spec but the speeder demands perfection which is above spec. The tipping point is on the edge of a knife... Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: SO it doesn't need to be broken, it's in spec but the speeder demands perfection which is above spec. This is a question of wording only, the thing I am asking is what do I do to reproduce on my machine the behaviour @tf_hh observes in his. Whether this is named "breaking my machine" or "lowering its perfectly high specs" to the level required to reproduce the reproducible. This will also reveal, by the way, what the "specs" specifically are (mind you, this is not some mysterious magic, but a 40-year old digital machine, and we now have diagnostic tools which were not available in the past). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) I'd have the problem bundle complete with power supply shipping to someone who has a logic analyzer/scope and observer what differs between you perfectly working machine and their wonkey machine maybe.... I suspect you still have the tools or access to the tools then if they aren't the same you can nail it down right there.. If it's all the same... well then it's label the parts and swap them time. The you will find the one or two that matter. You might then modify the circuit to allow them to work or leave a note to folks that they need a certain level and spec chip like the PIA issue for eprom burners and the XEP80 at full speed etc... just some thoughts, taking the cars for test drives with the scanners attached so to speak after all if it's reproducible on each vehicle in a slightly different way... temperature, time, what running etc. can be involved. best to leave it with the tech. talking might give ideas. hands on with the weird car is better. The tech trying to reproduce it on a good car won't be very helpfu. After coming up with a solution to confirm the fix, checking it out on the good car, by reproducing the problem and fixing just confirms the fix is great across the board. The fix might only apply to a certain options group if it breaks in the base good car Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Yup, I can have access to logic analyzer and oscilloscope, I think. And @tf_hh, I think, has these at home. Thus no sending machines is necessary. I just need the information, how to reproduce the behaviour. I.e. what exactly to do to a well working Atari so that it "lowers its specs" down to the level of being a non-working Atari. The process of doing such things to any equipment must have a shorter name, I think. The point is somewhere else: it was stated here that the issue tf_hh experienced was reproducible. Words have meaning: "issue reproducible" means that the circumstances (not "causes") which have to be met to trigger the issue are known. So I am asking what they are. If the issue can be repeated on one system, but the exact circumstances are not known and it cannot be formulated into a prescription what to do on another system to see it, then such an issue is not reproducible, just recurrent. We see this countless of times in software development: A: it does not work, B: it works for me, case suspended until A provides more information. If on my system everything works well, then I cannot know, what to look for, because whenever I look everything will be up to the specs. This is the one who observes the behaviour, who has an opportunity (or misfortune if you prefer) to gather any possible information. But of course this needs his cooperation. I cannot say for sure, but I guess that the behaviour of the reseller and designer described may be caused by vagueness of the "anecdotes" - there apparently are no real reports, just "it does not work, see here is the video", but nobody can diagnose anything looking at a video. It can only be answered "but it works here, see the video". And so we have a video vs a video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) That's not true in the least because there is a chance the numbers will be close enough, but not perfect to replicate the issue. Side by side comparison is often needed when prototyping. You are using the same method by the same person with the same test equipment. You might need that kind of precise comparison. If it made it out of the factory and it wasn't caught, the same holds true... the production units needs to be compared side by side. You may discover the issue in the direct comparison. If not, you have both and can isolate the behavior by checking the behavior of the working machines chips vs the weird machines chips. It's a hands on what you have to do moment. Talking just leads in circles. There is hope if you don't want the stuff sent to you though, it occurs to me... since you probably have a fully socketed right on down to the support chips computer... maybe keep all of your working with it parts to the side and plop in complete other parts, you could get lucky and reproduce it that way. You might find an hct chip works and an ls chip or f chip won't... or like I said all PIA's are in spec but not equal. I think you know pretty much know this though. In all the years you've kind of suggested this very same line of reasoning at one point or another. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 You are complicating simple thing. First, it is not necessary to do blind changes to the hardware if the issue is, as said, reproducible, because a reproducible issue has known circumstances. So I am waiting for the prescription how to reproduce the issue. If this fails, it will then be time to try some other approach. In any case, I have nothing to compare because NOONE HERE has a non-working Rapidus system. I know some but they do not have issues. This is why the chance of cooperation from tf_hh seemed so important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) Are we being impossible for the sake of being impossible? Everything in the world of troubleshooting and problems is not perfectly reproducible in the way you are now demanding. Sending you the non perfect equipment as suggested would alleviate the no one here has a non working widget issue. But that doesn't appear to be wanted. So it's just a pointless thing to say. Maybe a re-read of what I said and what you said could help. Perhaps the idea is to tire of the back and forth until it goes away. No one seems to want to look directly at the 'weird' machines with rapidus issue. Some good repair men, tech people, and even engineers (yes builders and makers of things)... do not have working examples to compare and make the weird ones work. Maybe someone should send them working units to see where it's all gone wrong... you see they don't have any. NO ONE THERE with the weird units has a working rapidus system. They have nothing to compare. I suggest everyone with weird stuff get together on this and maybe send a care package out so all the things can be seen and dealt with. Here's hoping the best. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: NO ONE THERE with the weird units has a working rapidus system. That would be perfect. If there are plenty of non-working Rapidus systems THERE, then perhaps there is also at least one man who is able to provide information what is wrong with his system so that the issue can be reproduced on a machine which has so far been working (aka "what to break in a good machine to make it bad"). This is not a question of swapping chips and doing other blind changes. This is a question of employing logic analyzer and seeing what signals/timings are not up to the specs (which are known and 65xx bus is no magic), so that there can be some direction for a further search. It was written there that the reset signal generates "some weird spikes". Fine, so where these come from? This is where we stopped and later it was stated that the issue was reproducible. So what do I do to reproduce these "spikes" on my 65XE, the question is (because they apparently do not occur here, so it is unlikely that the Rapidus board alone generates them - it must be something in that computer which triggers them). Anyway, no matter how many pages of this theoreticizing we generate, I am just waiting for the prescription to reproduce the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) enough already, a working machine is a working machine, if it works with everything except rapidus... then what? Now I know why @flashjazzcat and @tf_hh walk away from this. No point since only a select few have non broken Atari's to put them in evidently. It was before you insisted on how to do it without having both working and not working machines in the same place. That the idea to swap chips came about. Then maybe you might discern some differences. You insisted on replicating the 'broken' machine... and in fact asked how to break your 65xe to do it. I gave you a way to do the quote unquote breaking of the machine and a way to put it back as is. If people new exactly why it was not working and could tell you, then wtf would they need to tell you anything at all as they would just fix it themselves. pointless. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said: a working machine is a working machine, if it works with everything except rapidus... then what? Then it means that it is broken and just adding the board has revealed this. There are plenty of examples of "working machines" which "work with everything" except when a PBI HDD is inserted. Then what? Then it is the Atari which has apparently skewed, weak or otherwise bad phi2 signal, or some other problem, which is less or more latent as long you only use SIO. Then that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: If people new exactly why it was not working and could tell you, then wtf would they need to tell you anything at all as they would just fix it themselves I am just relying on the statement that the issue is reproducible. What "reproducible" means I already explained above. This does not mean that the causes are known, this means though that the circumstances necessary to reproduce the issue are known. So if they are known, I am curious what they are, because one may THEN try to find causes relying on that information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 bullshit re read the post. I know you are better than this. If the machine is in spec and only certain machines with slightly better than spec components will work with the add on, then the add on speeder is at fault or it needs to identify what better spec components to use. You aren't reading the posts, you are skimming them and purposely taking them out of context. You seem to only want to defend rapidus rather than make it so everyone can use it. Just call everything broken that doesn't work with it. Classic. Forget it, I'd rather let it die slowly now with only a handful of perfect people and machines able to use it. As everyones machines are broken, as is our logic. I get it... we don't deserve to have rapidus. Very nice. Another speeder that will only be used by a handful of people and the moans about why Atari people don't upgrade their machines to stuff like this now makes perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: You seem to only want to defend rapidus rather than make it so everyone can use it. Just call everything broken that doesn't work with it. No, I just asked tf_hh what are the circumstances necessary to reproduce the issue. Why? Because I want to reproduce it here. Why? Because I am curious. That is all. And of course that a broken machine may seemingly work until you add an extension board or insert something into PBI or CART/ECI. As I said, there are plenty examples of this, it was notorious actually when HDDs started to become popular. Edited March 2, 2021 by drac030 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 clearly it's reproducible on each persons machine... they describe it, they make a video, watch it happen. play the video back. why you can see it happen as many times as you like. You don't need a perfect reproduction of the exact spot the tire wobbles, you just need to know the tire wobble, now a good tech will say, hmmm is it the balance of the tire, a defect in the belts within the tire, bent rim, ball joint .... whatever he will check all of it and fix it... he won't insist the the customer identify the broken part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) an in spec machine isn't broken and you know it. The need to use other parts superior to the in spec parts for an add on should be clearly identified. Or the add on needs to be changed. PERIOD. tiresome. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said: clearly it's reproducible on each persons machine So what is the problem? If it is reproducible on each person's machine, then I also want to reproduce it on my machine, then I will be able to bring it for professional inspection and possibly find out what was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) No you don't because if you had the in spec parts that fail with the rapidus you say they are broken. So you aren't being honest. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Just now, _The Doctor__ said: an in spec machine isn't broken and you know it. But if a machine breaks after you insert a HDD, then you discover that the cause was the phi2 being too weak, then it was not in specs from the beginning. If an Atari seemingly works then it does not mean that it is in specs too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Just now, _The Doctor__ said: No you don't because if you had the in spec parts that fail with the rapidus you say they are broken Sorry, but if you know better what I WOULD say better than myself then I am certainly not needed in this discussion. Good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 You are insulting, if it's in spec.. it's in spec... Now you are being ridiculous. oh well if you put a hdd on an out of spec machine... that's you saying it's already out of spec. stop it, I had great respect for you... and now you are trying to make that respect diminish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, drac030 said: Sorry, but if you know better what I WOULD say better than myself then I am certainly not needed in this discussion. Good night. Exactly what you are doing to others. You never had an interest in helping out in the first place did you? You are the one who said exactly what you now quoted as an out to the whole thing. Thanks for nothing. Run around in circles until the words are right to get offended, after you insult an offend. It is what it is. I will side with everyone else on this one... rapidus is not worth the trouble. Don't buy one. Don't support it. It's not worth the trouble or the attitude of those who you will share company with if you do. You will not miss out on a thing without one. Edited March 2, 2021 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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