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Class316

re discovering and re loving Emulation

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Here's a photo of my directories. Nothing like feeling like a rich man's child with tons of downloads!

 

Fun fact: 2020 is the year I finally played CD-i

 

emus.jpg

 

 

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On 12/3/2020 at 5:26 AM, Keatah said:

Can we get an essay on the topic?

 

How I Got All Of My ROMs by x=usr(1536).

 

I had an emulator.  It was a good emulator that could play many games.  But I did not have ROMs for my emulator.  So I could not play any games on my emulator.

 

Then I found a website that had ROMs for my emulator.  I downloaded ROMs for my emulator from that website.  So I could play some games on my emulator.  They had a lot of ROMs for my emulator.

 

I could not figure out how to make my ROMs work with my emulator.  It was hard.  I asked people on the forums how to make my ROMs work with my emulator and they told me how to do it.  So I did and my emulator worked.

 

Now my emulator works with the ROMs I downloaded.  It is fun to play the ROMs my emulator supports.  I can not play the ROMs my emulator does not support, so they are not fun.  But I like the ones that I can play.

 

Now I want to tell everyone about my ROMs and emulators.  ROMs and emulators make me feel complete.  Here is a picture of the ROMs and emulators I have.  They are special because nobody else can download ROMs and emulators like I can.

 

My cat's name is Mork and he likes to pee on the carpet.

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On 12/3/2020 at 2:22 AM, Class316 said:

Here's a photo of my directories. Nothing like feeling like a rich man's child with tons of downloads!

 

Fun fact: 2020 is the year I finally played CD-i

 

emus.jpg

 

 

Emulation is good stuff.  It has been fun playing lots of Dreamcast titles new and old to me.

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I wonder if CDI emulation is that good, I had one for real in the day and the hate chucked at the Zelda 2 style titles and Hotel Mario is largely unfair.  They're not Nintendo first party great, but they are good games, while Zelda's Adventure is a bug ridden mistake that deserves every bit of flack.

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On 2/5/2021 at 10:50 PM, Tanooki said:

I wonder if CDI emulation is that good, I had one for real in the day and the hate chucked at the Zelda 2 style titles and Hotel Mario is largely unfair.  They're not Nintendo first party great, but they are good games, while Zelda's Adventure is a bug ridden mistake that deserves every bit of flack.

CD-I emulation isn't. MAME is the only choice and it is far from complete. Not many games run, but Hotel Mario is one of the games that runs perfectly on MAME. Also you have to get them in CHD to run them (as you do for all CD based systems on MAME).

 

The angry video game nerd has a 2 part video on the CD-I. And among other things he talks about the Zelda games and Hotel Mario. I'm amazed Nintendo allowed these to happen. 

 

I (thankfully) didn't have one back in the day but I would read about it in magazines. Today it is fascinating to watch videos on how much of a failed system it is. So many things about it are just a joke. The bad controller. The bad games. The way they heavily secured the watch battery in the system. To name some things. 

Edited by Class316
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7 hours ago, Class316 said:

CD-I emulation isn't. MAME is the only choice and it is far from complete. Not many games run, but Hotel Mario is one of the games that runs perfectly on MAME. Also you have to get them in CHD to run them (as you do for all CD based systems on MAME).

 

The angry video game nerd has a 2 part video on the CD-I. And among other things he talks about the Zelda games and Hotel Mario. I'm amazed Nintendo allowed these to happen. 

 

I (thankfully) didn't have one back in the day but I would read about it in magazines. Today it is fascinating to watch videos on how much of a failed system it is. So many things about it are just a joke. The bad controller. The bad games. The way they heavily secured the watch battery in the system. To name some things. 

I guess it's one of those I am old enough to have been there for the story situation, but Nintendo had to allow it due to a clause in their SNES-CD to never be deal with Philips after they found out Sony tried to bait and switch defraud them out of any profit on CD games with their original add-on.  Philips in the deal was given the rights in some terms to have Nintendo property put on their system, but the deal also said nothing about Nintendo making them, not really sure even what controls they had or if it was that vague of a deal it was just IP in name and 'try and stick to the format' type logic.  Those 4 Nintendo games weren't made in the least bit by them, Philips did it or hired some developer to handle it.  At least 3 of the 4 aren't horrendous.

 

Shame CDi emulation is that poor you have to result to the bloated MAME dumpster fire.  I guess I just won't bother, that program turned me off its bs years ago before it turned into a monstrously bloated download.  The CDi wasn't a bad machine, but if you went into it just as a video games only platform it had a better part of a year give or take before it was being thrown under the bus by greedy zealots at EGM and other me-too up and comings latched on and dragged it through the dirt.  It wasn't bad, it just wasn't a gaming device, and never intended it to be yet you wouldn't know that from the popular lies spread at the time some still cling onto now.  It was primarily about multimedia in respect to playing music CDs which were new at the time, and also the attempt at DV (Digitial Video CDs) which they made 100s of and all the popular movie studios got on board with it too thinking the same, until DVD crushed it.  The 'bad controller' was never meant to be one, it was a standard remote with a thumb stick to navigate menus with the on screen pointer arrow, they had a couple real controllers and they're actually excellent clones of gravis products.  And the games, somewhere around 25-33% of them are actually very good, even some into an excellent category.  There was a heap of crap, that's true, but there was enough to keep a normal early 90s gamer more than satisfied as we weren't into this whole instant gratification, freemium/cheap mobile download games, instant download of a 1000 roms society we have now.  You are right, the battery was bs, not exclusively though, Sega did much the same as late as the Dreamcast so they weren't alone.

 

Oh and some of those 'turds' they got PC ports that actually did fairly well. Chaos Control, Burn Cycle, Lil Divil, and a few others, not to mention Dragon's Lair 1, 2 and Space Ace had the best ports on that format for a decent stretch as the PC versions were terrible with really garbage level video codec output too.

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5 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I guess it's one of those I am old enough to have been there for the story situation, but Nintendo had to allow it due to a clause in their SNES-CD to never be deal with Philips after they found out Sony tried to bait and switch defraud them out of any profit on CD games with their original add-on.  Philips in the deal was given the rights in some terms to have Nintendo property put on their system, but the deal also said nothing about Nintendo making them, not really sure even what controls they had or if it was that vague of a deal it was just IP in name and 'try and stick to the format' type logic.  Those 4 Nintendo games weren't made in the least bit by them, Philips did it or hired some developer to handle it.  At least 3 of the 4 aren't horrendous.

 

Shame CDi emulation is that poor you have to result to the bloated MAME dumpster fire.  I guess I just won't bother, that program turned me off its bs years ago before it turned into a monstrously bloated download.  The CDi wasn't a bad machine, but if you went into it just as a video games only platform it had a better part of a year give or take before it was being thrown under the bus by greedy zealots at EGM and other me-too up and comings latched on and dragged it through the dirt.  It wasn't bad, it just wasn't a gaming device, and never intended it to be yet you wouldn't know that from the popular lies spread at the time some still cling onto now.  It was primarily about multimedia in respect to playing music CDs which were new at the time, and also the attempt at DV (Digitial Video CDs) which they made 100s of and all the popular movie studios got on board with it too thinking the same, until DVD crushed it.  The 'bad controller' was never meant to be one, it was a standard remote with a thumb stick to navigate menus with the on screen pointer arrow, they had a couple real controllers and they're actually excellent clones of gravis products.  And the games, somewhere around 25-33% of them are actually very good, even some into an excellent category.  There was a heap of crap, that's true, but there was enough to keep a normal early 90s gamer more than satisfied as we weren't into this whole instant gratification, freemium/cheap mobile download games, instant download of a 1000 roms society we have now.  You are right, the battery was bs, not exclusively though, Sega did much the same as late as the Dreamcast so they weren't alone.

 

Oh and some of those 'turds' they got PC ports that actually did fairly well. Chaos Control, Burn Cycle, Lil Divil, and a few others, not to mention Dragon's Lair 1, 2 and Space Ace had the best ports on that format for a decent stretch as the PC versions were terrible with really garbage level video codec output too.

 

Yes the SNES CD deal is quite a story in itself. They exited the Sony deal (which as you said wasn't a bad decision at the time) and did nothing with Phillips. The only results were those notoriously bad games. 

 

Ironic that Sony was basically looking to deal with both Nintendo and Sega to enter the video game market and went on to basically crush both of them. N64 only sold 20 million units worldwide. PS2 crushed Gamecube, and Sega exited the hardware business.

 

Hotel Mario is a pretty bad game IMO but is somewhat playable. Replace the Nintendo characters by generic characters no one would ever think about that game. The Zelda games all have issues that make you wonder how they were ever made (as shown by the Angry Video Game Nerd vids).

 

True it was marketed more as a multimedia device but didn't even do that very well. They wanted to convince you that the $700 device would replace a PC. Didn't work out too well. 

 

And it's true they had superior ports of those Laserdisc games. But those are lame games to begin with. They are not true games and they simply require you to press the right button at the right time. Could watch a youtube video and press buttons yourself the experience wouldn't be much different. 3DO had much better games than CD-I and that is also a failed system. 

 

Tetris, which is seen as one of the better CD-I games (which also runs perfectly on MAME) is missing lots of options and you can only flip blocks one side. AND it's missing sound effects (I initially thought that was an emulation issue). AND you gotta press a button (now down) to quickly bring down blocks). It's like, how could you not get Tetris right? The original Gameboy version is a better game.

 

MAME is fantastic emulator. Just not my first choice for console emulation. I agree using CHDs is lame for disc based systems. My Neo Geo roms work on both MAME and Final Burn Neo. Not so with Neo Geo CDs, as MAME uses CHDs and Final Burn Neo uses cue/bin. Very lame. CHDs fine for Arcade games like Killer Instinct though. 

Edited by Class316
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2 hours ago, Class316 said:

MAME is fantastic emulator. Just not my first choice for console emulation. I agree using CHDs is lame for disc based systems. My Neo Geo roms work on both MAME and Final Burn Neo. Not so with Neo Geo CDs, as MAME uses CHDs and Final Burn Neo uses cue/bin. Very lame. CHDs fine for Arcade games like Killer Instinct though. 

 

The problem is that without the CHD format, dealing with the increasingly-larger amounts of data that need to be streamed from disk to the emulator would be next to impossible - at least, in any sort of usable way.  I see the point you're making about CD data vs. HDD data, but having a single container for multiple media types cuts down on potential points of failure, the manpower needed to maintain that section of the code, and bloat (everyone's favourite gripe about MAME).

 

Wait until laserdisc redumps with vblank data baked in start appearing: the need for a compressed streaming format that can be decompressed on the fly will show up exactly where the shortcomings in formats such as bin/cue and ISO are.

 

(Note: I'm not married to CHD as a format, but it does solve a number of problems that other formats don't - and for MAME specifically, that's a good thing.)

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20 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

The problem is that without the CHD format, dealing with the increasingly-larger amounts of data that need to be streamed from disk to the emulator would be next to impossible - at least, in any sort of usable way.  I see the point you're making about CD data vs. HDD data, but having a single container for multiple media types cuts down on potential points of failure, the manpower needed to maintain that section of the code, and bloat (everyone's favourite gripe about MAME).

 

Wait until laserdisc redumps with vblank data baked in start appearing: the need for a compressed streaming format that can be decompressed on the fly will show up exactly where the shortcomings in formats such as bin/cue and ISO are.

 

(Note: I'm not married to CHD as a format, but it does solve a number of problems that other formats don't - and for MAME specifically, that's a good thing.)

 

That makes sense. 

 

 

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I have loved and used emulation in various formats pretty much since I started using computers, if I recall my first experience was emulating C64 on my Commodore AMIGA. Then when 16 bit emulators for Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis appeared it seemed magical to play all those classics on PC. But now original PlayStation, Dreamcast, Wii are incredible running at higher resolutions then the original consoles could output natively is really cool imho. I have pretty much every popular console, computer, handheld (minus perhaps the current and last couple generations) but most of my collection is in storage at any given time it is a hassle pulling them out to play a game here and there so emulation is a great quick fix that is very convenient. 

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Emulation's key strengths remain versatility, reliability, and convenience. Through those qualities it has gained widespread acceptance. With pervasive presence, everyone is either using it in some form or developing or curating. Thus there's always something new to discover and re-discover.

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1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Emulation's key strengths remain versatility, reliability, and convenience. Through those qualities it has gained widespread acceptance. With pervasive presence, everyone is either using it in some form or developing or curating. Thus there's always something new to discover and re-discover.

 

Don't forget, being completely free!

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1 hour ago, OldSchoolRetroGamer said:

I have loved and used emulation in various formats pretty much since I started using computers, if I recall my first experience was emulating C64 on my Commodore AMIGA. Then when 16 bit emulators for Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis appeared it seemed magical to play all those classics on PC. But now original PlayStation, Dreamcast, Wii are incredible running at higher resolutions then the original consoles could output natively is really cool imho. I have pretty much every popular console, computer, handheld (minus perhaps the current and last couple generations) but most of my collection is in storage at any given time it is a hassle pulling them out to play a game here and there so emulation is a great quick fix that is very convenient. 

Yes I remember when I first played Nintendo and Sega games on a PC. Seemed so magical. 

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What makes it even more magical is that emulation came on the scene in the mid-1990's. That was a time sufficiently distant from the late 1970's and early 1980's. 15-20 years distant. Time enough to build nostalgia and a longing for games you thought you'd never ever ever see again. Games lost to time. The early arcade stuff. The first console stuff.

 

All of it was beginning to show up on the PC. And PC was making great technological strides. Except for Pentium 4, what a lousy processor! There were several years where each month saw a significant amount of material being added. Even on a weekly basis sometime.

 

While the pace has slowed today. Refinement and versatility popularity are on the upswing. Everybody respects emulation now, both software and fpga simulation alike. And software emulators are gaining new features with ever-increasing attention to detail like wide-gamut HDR rendering - thanks to Windows 10 and continued evolution of the ubiquitous i-series microprocessors.

 

Having been at the forefront of emulation's early days was almost as exciting at bringing home the VCS from Venture or Turn-Style. Typical 1970's department stores for those not in the know.. And subsequently acquiring and exploring new cartridges. Almost.

Edited by Keatah
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@Class316I don't think we're going to agree that Hotel Mario is garbage.  Remove Mario, what do you have?  Basically elevator action and I like that game.  To me it was Hotel Elevator Action Mario so I put a lot of time on it clearing the stages and it was a good time.  I still think though Link Faces of Evil was better, a total wannabe Zelda II clone and it worked well, given you use the gravis pad clones, not that thumb stick remote meant for menu navigation.  The worst was the light gun games not having a gun but using the stick.  I had one, Escape from Cyber City and it was just ugly as you'd have to remember where to fire each time, and it one some screens randomized it which made things even nastier and I never did get close to finishing it.  I think with a gun I could have easily enough.


At least your Neo Geo games work with MAME, my legit dumps don't which really ticks me off, because those clowns at Retroarch follow the MAME build and if you don't match their fantasy of what's correct Retroarch ghosts the games from the menu entirely like you never loaded them to storage at all.  I probably would care less, but I have my real hardware, real copies of the games, real copies from SNK they gave dotemu too for that emulator bundle they have had out 5 years too.  None of it works, no good reason either other than some MAME wanker said so.

 

@Keatah above is totally right.  I was there, both on the legit stuff helping early authors out with testing, among other tidbits, and the seedy side too.  It was so exhilerating helping out, getting ROMs into peoples hands making pasofami junk work or creating the iNES header doc that still is referenced today for NES emulation builds.  It was a treasure each week or so, maybe daily, firing up a set of games if not dozens or more for a format comparing real hardware to the emulator on the PC next to the tv (or gameboy.)  One week you had color issues, or mode7 broken,or no audio...suddenly you get some bad beeps, a few good samples, special modes and chips taking off.  It was like living on the periphery helping out development teams make games work, sort of like how they tried to make them work the first go around on the original hardware years (or sadly months, days...) earlier.  I glance and update every few months for a while now, it's just sad, but the growth is just gone as it's about just copying, doing it yourself, refinement if not 100% accuracy refinement.

Edited by Tanooki
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3 hours ago, Keatah said:

What makes it even more magical is that emulation came on the scene in the mid-1990's. That was a time sufficiently distant from the late 1970's and early 1980's. 15-20 years distant. Time enough to build nostalgia and a longing for games you thought you'd never ever ever see again. Games lost to time. The early arcade stuff. The first console stuff.

 

All of it was beginning to show up on the PC. And PC was making great technological strides. Except for Pentium 4, what a lousy processor! There were several years where each month saw a significant amount of material being added. Even on a weekly basis sometime.

 

While the pace has slowed today. Refinement and versatility popularity are on the upswing. Everybody respects emulation now, both software and fpga simulation alike. And software emulators are gaining new features with ever-increasing attention to detail like wide-gamut HDR rendering - thanks to Windows 10 and continued evolution of the ubiquitous i-series microprocessors.

 

Having been at the forefront of emulation's early days was almost as exciting at bringing home the VCS from Venture or Turn-Style. Typical 1970's department stores for those not in the know.. And subsequently acquiring and exploring new cartridges. Almost.

Yea Windows 10 works great but is for life now. No more new OS updates from Microsoft like the old days though. How times have changed. 
 

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

@Class316I don't think we're going to agree that Hotel Mario is garbage.  Remove Mario, what do you have?  Basically elevator action and I like that game.  To me it was Hotel Elevator Action Mario so I put a lot of time on it clearing the stages and it was a good time.  I still think though Link Faces of Evil was better, a total wannabe Zelda II clone and it worked well, given you use the gravis pad clones, not that thumb stick remote meant for menu navigation.  The worst was the light gun games not having a gun but using the stick.  I had one, Escape from Cyber City and it was just ugly as you'd have to remember where to fire each time, and it one some screens randomized it which made things even nastier and I never did get close to finishing it.  I think with a gun I could have easily enough.


At least your Neo Geo games work with MAME, my legit dumps don't which really ticks me off, because those clowns at Retroarch follow the MAME build and if you don't match their fantasy of what's correct Retroarch ghosts the games from the menu entirely like you never loaded them to storage at all.  I probably would care less, but I have my real hardware, real copies of the games, real copies from SNK they gave dotemu too for that emulator bundle they have had out 5 years too.  None of it works, no good reason either other than some MAME wanker said so.

I download the full set of MAME roms and they work on both Final Burn Neo and on MAME. But I use Final Burn Neo to play Neo Geo. 

Edited by Class316

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That's good, I just refuse to download that horridly huge double digit GB total set for MAME, seems ridiculous to as I'd never touch more than probably a 100 of them so I use what I have that I know is correct even if they blow it off, so I ended up using Final Burn as well.  Far better and more friendly program anyway.

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5 hours ago, Tanooki said:

At least your Neo Geo games work with MAME, my legit dumps don't which really ticks me off, because those clowns at Retroarch follow the MAME build and if you don't match their fantasy of what's correct Retroarch ghosts the games from the menu entirely like you never loaded them to storage at all.  I probably would care less, but I have my real hardware, real copies of the games, real copies from SNK they gave dotemu too for that emulator bundle they have had out 5 years too.  None of it works, no good reason either other than some MAME wanker said so.

If your bundle is the one from Humble Bundle, you have to go to Humble Bundle's website and download the games directly from them. The Steam versions of the games all have encryption on the files, so they won't work in other emulators.

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17 hours ago, Keatah said:

What makes it even more magical is that emulation came on the scene in the mid-1990's. That was a time sufficiently distant from the late 1970's and early 1980's. 15-20 years distant. Time enough to build nostalgia and a longing for games you thought you'd never ever ever see again. Games lost to time. The early arcade stuff. The first console stuff.

I remember using emulators in the 80s, but they were usually commercial affairs, and incomplete.

 

I think what really sparked the emulation scene in the 90s was the mainstreaming of the internet.  Suddenly you could easily collaborate with other emulator authors in other parts of the world,  you could push out updates weekly or daily.  Also the hardware was now fast enough to emulate the old systems at 100% speed or close to it.

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14 hours ago, Asaki said:

If your bundle is the one from Humble Bundle, you have to go to Humble Bundle's website and download the games directly from them. The Steam versions of the games all have encryption on the files, so they won't work in other emulators.

Yup they were, got them the day they debuted it. While the emulator isn't so great clearly, the ROM sets supplied by SNK from the boards themselves are in convenient basic ZIP files.  It's the only copy I bothered with, ignored them both on GoG and Steam due to the whole lock n' key stuff.  Probably the only legit way to actually own the MVS version of Ironclad since SNK supplied it. :D

Edited by Tanooki

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6 hours ago, zzip said:

I remember using emulators in the 80s, but they were usually commercial affairs, and incomplete.

Most all of my computing in the 80's was done on the Apple II, gaming, word processing, bbs'ing, print shopp'ing, programming, all that! (And Amiga for some graphics..) But emulating stuff wasn't in there - unless you count CP/M with a Z-80 card.. The Apple II just wasn't powerful enough.

 

Sure I had stints with the Atari 400/800, C64, and other micros. But I could really only pay full attention to one machine. Two absolute tops.

 

I recall my first try at emulating something was running 8088 PC software on the 68000 Amiga. It was a lousy failure-filled experience. First I got thrown out of the computer store for trying to make a copy of the Amiga Transformer. And later when I *did* get a copy I couldn't get the fuck'n thing to work for a long while. And when I did, it sucked and ran like 500 kHz something or other. I think I got MS-DOS to boot and that was it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulation_on_the_Amiga#Amiga_Transformer

 

I wouldn't revisit emulation till I got a hold of Microsoft Arcade and 2600 Activision ActionPacks. MSArcade wasn't really an emulator, but Windows 3.1 rewrites of BattleZone, Tempest, MissileCommand, Centipede, and Asteroids. In any case I was slapphappy to have it. And the ActionPacks taught me about ROMZ as we discoverlearned that there were multiple parts to this puzzle, executable and game-data. It was thrilling to get a rom from another game like Combat or Outlaw to run. Not everything ran, and I had to learn about bankswitching to match up roms that would work.

 

Then PCAE, Z26, MAME, DASARCADE, SPARCADE, COLEMDOS, and more, came along. And the scene took off.

 

6 hours ago, zzip said:

I think what really sparked the emulation scene in the 90s was the mainstreaming of the internet.  Suddenly you could easily collaborate with other emulator authors in other parts of the world,  you could push out updates weekly or daily.

That's true. At the time we didn't think anything of it. Newsgroups and newsletters. That was all for exotic professional programmers. Educators and professors working in BIG science labs like in the beginning of 2010: Odyssey Two. Absolutely not for us arcade junkies and school dropouts!

 

6 hours ago, zzip said:

 Also the hardware was now fast enough to emulate the old systems at 100% speed or close to it.

That's right.

 

I didn't think about CPU power & emulators together in one thought train. I was just happy to afford a 486, and then a Pentium II/III. Just happy to have seen the scene explode as it did. Wasn't concerned about CPU power for emulators till well into 2015.

 

In today's state of affairs most emulators can fit inside the L2/L3 caches. Or the upcoming on-board HBM. Theoretically of course.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tanooki said:

While the emulator isn't so great clearly, the ROM sets supplied by SNK from the boards themselves are in convenient basic ZIP files.  It's the only copy I bothered with, ignored them both on GoG and Steam due to the whole lock n' key stuff.

Weird. I threw them on my PocketGo and they ran just fine.

...except for the "less lag" hack of Metal Slug 2.

...and I can't figure out how to change the dip switches so Metal Slug has red blood...

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