Is there MBX emulation?

[Pheonix]

Is there an emulator that emulates the MBX system?

 

[+arcadeshopper]

Is there an emulator that emulates the MBX system?
 

Nope

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[jrhodes]

I have pestered @Tursi about this before.

Maybe once he completes his overhaul of Classic99 for the 4.0 release?

Would be nice to have it as an option in MAME too.

[pixelpedant]

I just don't know how well it could be implemented really usefully.  Keeping in mind that the defining features of the MBX are:

 

- Voice input by the player. 

- A 64 key keypad with game-specific overlays. 

- An esoteric analogue joystick design with a rotation axis and four buttons. 

 

Even if there were no impediment of any kind to an accurate simulation, it seems like it's still just a pretty problematic system to use via any simulation. 

 

Given the centrality of analogue voice command input and two additional rather odd physical input devices to the equation. 

 

I guess what I'm asking myself is "what do you get, if you simulate a support system for a collection of esoteric input devices, minus the esoteric input devices?"  

 

I feel like not much.  But it might be handy for testing MBX development projects or experiments.  If those were ever to happen (given the worldwide realistic potential player base of probably about a dozen people). 

 

 

[Pheonix]

Mainly for testing and programming purposes.  At least, that's why I would like it.  Can't, yet, really emulate the F18A either (that I've found, at least.)  As an, admittedly amateur, programmer, I'd like to be able to program for those devices (at least as an option,) and test on my main PC before transferring to real HW for final testing.  But that's just me

[pixelpedant]

JS99er.net and Classic99 both emulate the F18A.  So development for F18A is already supported by relevant tools. 

[Pheonix]

JS99er.net was a big help   I don't yet have one myself.  Been sitting here anticipating the MK2 for a while now.  He had stopped production of the MK1 when I was ready to get one

 

I don't think I'm ever likely to have an MBX system, though.  Would love to dig into programming it, but just don't have access for testing/learning purposes.  From what I've read, I really like the system, and I wish there had been more support for it in the past.

 

[+mizapf]

I have a MBX system here, yet never tested, and I do not have any schematics or dumps. I agree with @pixelpedant, it is questionable what I could reasonably emulate in MAME, at least with justifiable efforts (and prospect of being useful). I still have so many open sites in MAME that I currently don't want to promise anything.

[Omega-TI]

3 hours ago, Pheonix said:

I don't think I'm ever likely to have an MBX system, though.

 

I know "I'll^*" never own one, because out of the box it has too many strikes against it to have any appeal to "me".  

 

Strike one   --  It's big and would take up too much desk area to keep hooked up.  (I simply don't have the room).  

Strike two   --  There is very little available for it.  (Which means it would get little to no use at all).

Strike three --  They sell for too damn much.  (The cost to benefit ratio sucks).

 

So.... YER OUT! 

 

^*I acknowledge some people like to collect for the sake of collecting and have plenty of money to throw around, I'm not one of them.

[+OLD CS1]

The MBX is a neat device, indeed.  It could have been more than what was realized in its short life-span.  It makes an interesting conversation piece and display at events like VCF, except that I have never had any questions or discussions about it.  Perhaps because my MBX display is lacking.

 

Nonetheless, for a practical matter it falls short.  The size, as noted, is a bit cumbersome, though I expect that when adding an arcade expansion onto a desktop console which, by design, already occupies much of the available desktop space.  I find its speech is inferior to that of the Speech Synthesizer, additionally frustrated by the fact speech is not piped through the TI's audio.

 

Speech recognition is nearly useless in environments with background noise, which makes it impossible to demonstrate at events, and it seems to fall over when presented with excited exclamations.  The user tends to introduce errors, as well, by speaking with deliberate and exaggerated enunciation during the sampling phase and casually during game play.  Sampling the user's input multiple times helps to overcome this.

 

The controller and keypad is not terrible but add too little to game play as most of the games play just fine without the expansion.  The games alone are of excellent quality.  SuperFly is an example of great play without and enhanced play with.

 

I am not convinced we needed the MBX expansion as it exists.  While I see the idea of the overlays, and they are especially helpful for children's education games, the keypad is otherwise unnecessary as a full keyboard is already available.  The headset misses an opportunity by not sending audio to the player's ear.  I imagine the enhanced joystick could have seen more use had the product life been longer.

 

To the point of emulation, much of the benefits offered by the MBX would be impractical to emulate, though not impossible.  Interaction with the user would be the most difficult.  For instance, with only a single keyboard on the host machine, said keyboard would have to switch modes between the TI and MBX keyboards.  Then there is how to produce the inputs equal to that of the enhanced joystick, though I admittedly lack knowledge in the area of PC game controllers.

 

It came to mind while typing that beyond the existing arcade and educational applications, a CRPG could make use of the added functionality.  For instance, inventory or battle controls could be presented from the MBX keypad but, again, I see much of that duplicating TI keyboard functionality (although, perhaps more useful if the expansion can be more "remote," allowing the use to sit back away with the MBX in his lap.)  Speech recognition could be used instead of keyboard control for menus.  As well, consider Infocom games or the like enhanced with speech recognition.

[Count9929A]

I used an MBX just once, at the italian TI-TREFF, and I was unable to use most of the features.

So I don't know much about it. Thanks fo the description, that I read with much curiosity. I am hit by the following:

1 hour ago, OLD CS1 said:

  The headset misses an opportunity by not sending audio to the player's ear. 

 

What does it mean? What's the purpose of the headset if it does not send audio?

 

[Asmusr]

Is it using the TI's VDP? If yes, how does that work?

[Omega-TI]

11 minutes ago, Count9929A said:

I used an MBX just once, at the italian TI-TREFF, and I was unable to use most of the features.

So I don't know much about it. Thanks fo the description, that I read with much curiosity. I am hit by the following:

 

What does it mean? What's the purpose of the headset if it does not send audio?

 

 

Jump to 10:03 

 

[pixelpedant]

3 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

I find its speech is inferior to that of the Speech Synthesizer, additionally frustrated by the fact speech is not piped through the TI's audio.

I find that there are actually practical benefits to this, though, in that it means the MBX speech comes out perfectly clear regardless of what the PSG is doing and is not interrupted by anything else the CPU gets busy with in the meantime. 

 

Whereas I find that 1) when the TI speech synthesizer pipes sound through the 9919 at the same time tone and/or noise is being generated, it tends to result in a pretty muddy output, and 2) games which feed the synthesizer custom LPC sometimes interrupt their LPC to handle other in-game events.

 

So as much as having a completely different computer with a completely separate sound system handle synth on the TI's behalf is a pretty bonkers solution, it does mitigate certain issues. 

[GDMike]

4 hours ago, Count9929A said:

I used an MBX just once, at the italian TI-TREFF, and I was unable to use most of the features.

So I don't know much about it. Thanks fo the description, that I read with much curiosity. I am hit by the following:

 

What does it mean? What's the purpose of the headset if it does not send audio?

 

This thing was rushed to market, it could have had all those bells and whistles later if it had been successful as an attachment to the TI. I believe it was a standalone system for a while before TI tried to revive it amongst itself.

[pixelpedant]

Well, it was initially developed as a Milton Bradley game console prototype (the Milton Bradley Gemini).  And when that project was abandoned in the prototype stage, it was reconceptualised as an add-on for Atari 2600, Atari Computers, Apple II and TI-99/4A.

 

The Atari deal fell through (they ended up releasing the joystick alone as a 2600 product) and Apple II never materialised, making a TI-99 version the only one to make it to production.  It was initially designed in black as the Milton Bradley Expander (demonstrated at Winter CES '83), but redesigned in beige in '83 to suit the new TI-99 colour scheme. 

 

TI announced its withdrawal from the computer market a couple weeks prior to the planned release of the MBX, however, and Milton Bradley cancelled it immediately.  So it never had a proper commercial release at all.  What stock had already been produced seems to have made it into the hands of TI mail order distributors and TI-focused computer shops in early 84 (and presumably due to low demand, stock remained available for quite some time). 

 

See this thread for further information and resources:

 

 

[Pheonix]

I'm wondering how hard it would be to modify one to:

 

1) Accept the audio out from the TI-99/4a to mix with internal audio

2) Add an audio out to take the mixed audio to the monitor/speakers normally

3) Add a tape port pass through, so constantly plugging/unplugging it won't be necessary

4) Add a disable switch and allow direct control port pass-through (with built in Atari Joystick adapter.)

5) Finally, add in true headset plug (with either a separate headphone jack, or using a 3-channel plug instead.)

 

Wouldn't mind a total re-creation either, considering the asking prices I've found so far.  There is apparently a fairly active programming community, and with something like this available, I could see people writing some awesome software for it

[GDMike]

Basically, using a pi to emulate it, there. The speaker/headphones fix is in.

Just need the rest. Lol

[pixelpedant]

Following up on an earlier point about the fate of the Gemini and its transformation into an add-on for other systems, here is the only other manifestation of the project which made it to production in some form: the Milton Bradley HD2000 Heavy Duty Joystick (ultimately marketed as the Space Age Joystick, by Atari):

 

[+acadiel]

The system ought to be easy to emulate once we get a few things and understand a few things:

 

• There's an 8K ROM in the thing that has some data (speech rom, or code for the 6809 CPU)
• How does the 6809 get code to execute?  (I mean - this is a Coco computer level CPU in the MBX acting in embedded fashion)
• Understanding the protocols that are going across the cassette and joystick ports.  I think the cassette ports is where the communication takes places.
• How are the 8x8 touch pad keypresses get registered and communicated?

The chips in the MBX include:

• GI GP1000 - Speech Recognition and Synthesis
• MM52664MBX/N - 8K 24 pin ROM
• ADC0809CCN - Analog to Digital Converter
• HM6116 - Two RAM chips
• HD68A09 - 6809 CPU (also runs the Coco!)
• HD68A21 - Peripheral interface adapter
• Assorted 74LS chips and a LM324 and some other LM chips
• One chip that I can't read - a 14 pin one

 

[pixelpedant]

1 hour ago, acadiel said:

• Understanding the protocols that are going across the cassette and joystick ports.  I think the cassette ports is where the communication takes places.

I believe it's actually the reverse.  The cassette port's just used as a ground. 

 

Reflecting this, it is labeled the "ground plug" in the MBX manual while the joystick port is the "communications plug".  And the manual states that if the cassette port does not resemble the (DE-9) ground plug provided, the ground plug is unnecessary, and grounding will be accomplished through the joystick port.  I'm guessing this was predictive of use with the TI-99/8. 

 

Barry Boone's notes from his MBX diagnostic utilities state

 

The MBX is communicated with via the joystick port.  Basically, you issue commands to the MBX in the form of a send queue, and wait for responses from the receive queue.  An interrupt routine (the 60Hz interrupt) is used to manage communications to/from the unit.

 

[+acadiel]

10 minutes ago, pixelpedant said:

I believe it's actually the reverse.  The cassette port's just used as a ground. 

 

Reflecting this, it is labeled the "ground plug" in the MBX manual while the joystick port is the "communications plug".  And the manual states that if the cassette port does not resemble the (DE-9) ground plug provided, the ground plug is unnecessary, and grounding will be accomplished through the joystick port.  I'm guessing this was predictive of use with the TI-99/8. 

 

Barry Boone's notes from his MBX diagnostic utilities state

 

The MBX is communicated with via the joystick port.  Basically, you issue commands to the MBX in the form of a send queue, and wait for responses from the receive queue.  An interrupt routine (the 60Hz interrupt) is used to manage communications to/from the unit.

 

Ah, that makes sense.  I'll be taking out my MBX soon and trying to pinout the ROM (address/data lines, Vcc, GND, OE/CE, etc.) so that I can try dumping it.

[+Ksarul]

On 12/16/2020 at 5:05 AM, pixelpedant said:

Following up on an earlier point about the fate of the Gemini and its transformation into an add-on for other systems, here is the only other manifestation of the project which made it to production in some form: the Milton Bradley HD2000 Heavy Duty Joystick (ultimately marketed as the Space Age Joystick, by Atari):

 

I actually bought one of these about ten years ago because of its similarity to the MBX joysticks--and didn't know the background for its existence until now. Many thanks!