It’s okay to like the VCS.

[youxia]

What I find interesting is that while it's okay to pile up on VCS here (and rightly so), any attempt at a critical discussion about Amico results in a show of pitchforks & banhammers. Odd, that.

[jaybird3rd]

2 hours ago, youxia said:

What I find interesting is that while it's okay to pile up on VCS here (and rightly so), any attempt at a critical discussion about Amico results in a show of pitchforks & banhammers. Odd, that.

For all the complaining and caterwauling there has been about this, I'd love for someone to point to a real example of a legitimate, honest, good-faith effort to have a "critical discussion" about the Amico that "resulted in a show of pitchforks and banhammers."  There has been plenty of "critical discussion" in the main Amico Q&A thread, and there is an entire separate thread devoted to that very subject which has not been touched.  The instances when we've had to kick people out of those threads—and there really haven't been all that many—were not merely because they tried to bring "critical discussion," as they would insist, but because they couldn't do it without being total asshats about it.

 

(And no, that kind of behavior shouldn't be tolerated in the VCS threads either, in my opinion.  It seems that we might need to start cracking down again.)

[Mockduck]

The Amico threads have had their fair share of awful behavior as well, but the people being critical over there tend to be a bit less obsessed with making sure everyone else is miserable, too. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Mockduck

[digdugnate]

1 hour ago, Mockduck said:

The Amico threads have had their fair share of awful behavior as well, but the people being critical over there tend to be a bit less obsessed with making sure everyone else is miserable, too. 

that's because the threads get shut down quicker, duuuhhh.

[MrBeefy]

13 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

HEY! THESE GUYS DO OR DON'T THINK THE VCS IS STUPID! LET'S GO LYNCH 'EM! Pitchforks and torches!

 

Is that really how a couple goofball jokes and insults are interpreted? Let me set it up for anyone inflamed and angry about the VCS, one way or another:

 

Most really, really, REALLY don't care about the VCS. Is it ill produced by misanthropes? Probably. Is it overpriced computer gubbins? Probably.

 

Is it hilarious that the management of the project can't actually advertise and only makes things worse? Absolutely.

 

Will history care if you buy it? No, it's your money. Is it foolish? Maybe, but only you can be the judge of that in your life.

 

Should any of the statement above matter in the slightest? Absolutely not. Make your own choices and have fun with them.

 

If you really think a couple off-color jokes, genuine criticism, and goofball insults are such a big deal that it's having effect on your emotional and mental state, I'd recommend hitting the little 'Log Out' button on all internet activities for a while, because life's too short and you're taking everything too seriously, and I speak from personal experience saying that.

 

You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

 

IF YOU ONLY READ ONE PART OF THIS POST AND HAVE ONLY ONE TAKEAWAY, LET IT BE THIS:

 

I mean this from the cockles of my cold simian heart, too. Real talk: I left AA for a while (a while meaning seven years) because I started taking these Internet shenanigans too seriously, here and everywhere else, and it started impacting my life in very bad ways.

 

On the list of things to get angry about, different opinions about wonky electric beeps and boops should be, oh, #245937375057363 on the list in anyone's life.

 

If you're getting pissed about Atari, go outside. Take a walk. Live life. Eat chicken and waffles (trust me).

 

Don't slave at an electronic altar of old farts talking about dusty silicon. It's not worth it. It never is. There are far, far more important people in your life than faceless names within a perpetual digital nerd convention.

 

This should win post of the day.

[youxia]

On 12/20/2020 at 3:47 PM, jaybird3rd said:

For all the complaining and caterwauling there has been about this, I'd love for someone to point to a real example of a legitimate, honest, good-faith effort to have a "critical discussion" about the Amico that "resulted in a show of pitchforks and banhammers." 

Admittedly I did get it mixed up with the "Amico constructive criticism" thread, which is still going on, so I do retract my statement, at least partially.

 

Nevertheless, I did not personally see any "trolling" there, we were just disputing things with TT and Amico fans. Certainly it wasn't any worse then the Taco threads (and yes, I'm aware that Amico is on completely different level than VCS, so it does not deserve this kind of scorn).

[MrBeefy]

26 minutes ago, youxia said:

Admittedly I did get it mixed up with the "Amico constructive criticism" thread, which is still going on, so I do retract my statement, at least partially.

 

Nevertheless, I did not personally see any "trolling" there, we were just disputing things with TT and Amico fans. Certainly it wasn't any worse then the Taco threads (and yes, I'm aware that Amico is on completely different level than VCS, so it does not deserve this kind of scorn).

There's a pretty good list of "Beefy curated" games list in that thread. Great cheap fun to be had. I think the VCS should have looked at Nintendo's eshop scene and maybe tried to go in that direction.

 

I don't think the VCS would put a dent in the Switches indie scene, but at least it would have a better identity than the "un-console".

 

Not sure if I mentioned it in that thread but I beat Mana Spark recently. Has a Night Stalkerish dungeon crawl feel. DLC adds co-op and character. For game and DLC I spent $4. There's a great affordable indie scene that someone other than Switch could potentially capitalize on.

[jaybird3rd]

3 hours ago, youxia said:

Nevertheless, I did not personally see any "trolling" there, we were just disputing things with TT and Amico fans. Certainly it wasn't any worse then the Taco threads (and yes, I'm aware that Amico is on completely different level than VCS, so it does not deserve this kind of scorn).

I wouldn't exactly consider that thread to be "honest" or "in good faith."  The trolling is still there—it's subtle and sneaky, but there just the same.  The point is, we're getting tired of this kind of behavior, whether the VCS or the Amico is the target.

[+Random Terrain]

14 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

. . . cockles . . .

 

My eyes immediately zoomed in on that word, then I got distracted by a giant orange with legs that someone created from thin air by saying the word "abracadabra." After chasing the orange for about 17 minutes, I'm much too tired to read the rest of of your post.

 

By the way, what is a VCS?

[mr_me]

19 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

How have you been enjoying yours so far?

 

If I had one, the first game I would play would be the Firetruck arcade game. Baby Beef really liked it the last time he watched me play it.

Firetruck is a nice two player co-op game.  Do you play using an analog stick?  The arcade machine uses a spinner steering wheel; it's okay with an analog stick.  I wonder how it is with the new twist joystick; same thing with all the other arcade steering wheel games.

[mr_me]

7 hours ago, youxia said:

What I find interesting is that while it's okay to pile up on VCS here (and rightly so), any attempt at a critical discussion about Amico results in a show of pitchforks & banhammers. Odd, that.

There's been lots of posts about amico graphics looking bad; you shouldn't be discouraged from making a critical amico thread here.

[MrBeefy]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

Firetruck is a nice two player co-op game.  Do you play using an analog stick?  The arcade machine uses a spinner steering wheel; it's okay with an analog stick.  I wonder how it is with the new twist joystick; same thing with all the other arcade steering wheel games.

Analogue stick. I'm curious about it's performance with those and things like Stella.

[justclaws]

Did everybody see this new video which summarises the features and marketing?
It's very clear that the VCS is aimed at a totally different demographic to the Intellivision Amico.
 

 

[+Random Terrain]

7 minutes ago, justclaws said:

Did everybody see this new video which summarises the features and marketing?
It's very clear that the VCS is aimed at a totally different demographic to the Intellivision Amico.
 

 

 

So it's kind of like a continuation of the Atari promise in a way?

 

randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories-cheating.html

[AlecRob]

21 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

It's also OK to not play the victim card because others don't care for it or the company behind it, and to reply to criticism in a level-headed manner because it's likely to garner a lot more respect from the opposition than having emotional outbursts in their direction due to disagreement with their position(s).

 

Not aiming that comment at you specifically, @AlecRob, but mentioning it because it takes at least two to tango.

Uh, from my experience, the proponents tend to be less emotionally charged than the folks who dislike the VCS.  Anti VCS people will immediately tell you to use another product/PC/rasp pi/whatever as soon as you try to talk about using the VCS for anything.  Frankly it gets overwhelming and makes me not want to discuss the console because i’m constantly bombarded with reasons why i’m supposed to not like it.  My patience eventually wears thin from the massive amount of pushback.  Call me a pussy or thin skinned if you like, i just think a lot of humans in this position would think the same way.  The VCS discord group and facebook are full of people who left atariage because they were utterly exhausted from the negativity surrounding the VCS.    People here act like being open-minded about the VCS is unthinkable and stupid.

   
 

I don’t mind if someone dislikes a product, but damn, we should respect each others decision to buy or not buy something.  I don’t troll people for not buying the VCS.   People seem so fuckin proud of the fact that they dislike the VCS. Like they suddenly have a superiority complex because they aren’t “foolish enough” to buy a “scam” console.  

Edited December 21, 2020 by AlecRob

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 minute ago, AlecRob said:

Uh, from my experience, the proponents tend to be less emotionally charged than the folks who dislike the VCS.

 

With the exception of the IGG comments page, Facebook group, subreddits, and comments made here on AA...  I'd say you're right.

 

1 minute ago, AlecRob said:

Anti VCS people will immediately tell you to use another product/PC/rasp pi/whatever as soon as you try to talk about using the VCS for anything.

 Frankly it gets overwhelming and makes me not want to discuss the console because i’m constantly bombarded with reasons why i’m supposed to not like it.  My patience eventually wears thin from the massive amount of pushback.

 

Serious question: when were you personally ever berated?  Sure, there were times where there was back-and-forth where you were defending your position, and that's fine.  But I'm honestly having a hard time remembering a situation - here or in the taco thread - where anyone just jumped on you out of the blue for being a proponent of the system.  You absolutely did receive replies to your posts, and by and large they were not supportive of the system - but, again, I can't recall any of them being aimed at you personally rather than at the company behind the VCS or the device itself.

 

1 minute ago, AlecRob said:

Call me a pussy or thin skinned if you like, i just think a lot of humans in this position would think the same way.  The VCS discord group and facebook are full of people who left atariage because they were utterly exhausted from the negativity surrounding the VCS.

 

Actually, I wouldn't call you a pussy or thin-skinned; you've stuck around through three years of commentary on the system that's contrary to your own points of view.  However, nobody can help someone else's emotional reasons for going elsewhere.

 

Disagreement is a part of life.  I don't particularly care that anyone happens to like the VCS; that's their prerogative.  However, in no way does that prevent me from commenting on the device or the company behind it; similarly, others can comment on it as they may see fit.  But to expect total harmony and accord on the subject is unrealistic.

 

1 minute ago, AlecRob said:

People here act like being open-minded about the VCS is unthinkable and stupid.    

 

Allow me to point out the corollary to this: people here have been open-minded about the VCS, and have come to different conclusions than ones that you or others may hold.  That's not close-mindedness: that's looking at the available evidence, analysing it, and reaching a conclusion.

 

Also, language counts for a lot.  When phrases like, "unthinkable and stupid" are slung at a group of people who are also being called closed-minded, that doesn't exactly engender a lot of good will with the other side.  Like I said: it takes at least two to tango.

[Atarick]

I suspect within, say, 3 months, as unboxing videos grow and more preorders are filled, and as more people mod or hack the hell out of this thing, that we'll see a "meet in the middle" equilibrium reached in the forum. It's clear the VCS won't kill people in their sleep as a few YouTube personalities seemed to suggest, and it's also clear this wasn't the greatest effort it could have been to truly revolutionalize the market (or gain the trust of Atari loyalists and modern gamers). Whenever I get my hands on one of these I'll keep an open mind. The games don't look awful, there's just not enough of them and they are available everywhere. To me the true test is what Atari does next. People have this thing, and they are hungry for games. A competent company would begin updating based on backer feedback and designing games or apps optimized for the platform to keep buzz alive. 

 

We'll see what they do.

[zzip]

On 12/19/2020 at 8:46 PM, godslabrat said:

By the same logic, it is okay not to like it.

Of course it is, and nobody is forcing you to buy one.  

 

What's generally cool about Atariage is how it welcomes users of all systems without the hardware flame wars generally.  But for some reason when it comes to the Atari VCS, every thread is dragged down into a hate-fest.  On an Atari site no less.

 

Why?  People who want one are still going to buy one,  people who don't won't.   Let people spend their money as they see fit and discuss it in peace.

 

I have no interest in buying an Amico, so I simply stay out of those threads,  it's easy!  

[zzip]

14 hours ago, AlecRob said:

 Anti VCS people will immediately tell you to use another product/PC/rasp pi/whatever as soon as you try to talk about using the VCS for anything.

Yeah, on one hand they'll tell you it's too weak to play modern games, then they'll tell you to buy a Pi which is much weaker, and doesn't even have the option to play Steam games.   ?

 

The VCS being on AMD hardware has the ability to play thousands of games natively or via emulation.   Many modern games WILL work despite what they try to tell you.   Not every new game is a 3D powerhouse.    If you want to play the ones that are, then the console you want is a PS5 or Xbox Series X. 

[+Random Terrain]

Maybe they can adjust the words in the video below to fit the new product and use it in a commercial:

 

youtu.be/mPIeu_tq-HE

 

[youxia]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:48 PM, zzip said:

What's generally cool about Atariage is how it welcomes users of all systems without the hardware flame wars generally.  But for some reason when it comes to the Atari VCS, every thread is dragged down into a hate-fest.  On an Atari site no less.

 

Why?  People who want one are still going to buy one,  people who don't won't.   Let people spend their money as they see fit and discuss it in peace.

There are numerous valid reasons for which VCS, and especially its makers, has been receiving severe criticism. And criticising things for valid reasons is not "hating" but a very useful part of social discourse. Furtheremore, VCS is a part of modern gaming scene, with roots in the retro one, and that's something I have interest in and like to discuss regardless of whether I want to buy a device or not.

 

Of course, one could argue that things have spun out of control, what with the constant taco-slingin' and all that jazz. But this is an inversely proportional function of this site's Atari fans passion contrasted with modern Atari's borderline-farcical incompetence.

 

That said, I think the criticism should be contained to one thread, similarly to Amico.

 

 

[zzip]

36 minutes ago, youxia said:

There are numerous valid reasons for which VCS, and especially its makers, has been receiving severe criticism. And criticising things for valid reasons is not "hating" but a very useful part of social discourse.

Criticism is one thing, but too often the line has been crossed.   There's constant attempts for making people feel bad for backing it/buying it, or even just being interested in seeing how it goes.   Full disclosure I have not bought one, but always said I might if it turned out to not be vaporware.  I was constantly told that it either was a scam that would never come out and I was stupid for falling for it,  or I should by X, Y or Z instead.

 

41 minutes ago, youxia said:

Of course, one could argue that things have spun out of control, what with the constant taco-slingin' and all that jazz. But this is an inversely proportional function of this site's Atari fans passion contrasted with modern Atari's borderline-farcical incompetence.

 

That said, I think the criticism should be contained to one thread, similarly to Amico.

Yes it has spun out of control.  Atari VCS pages often went for hundreds of pages of mostly comments by the anti-VCS camp.

 

A criticism thread would be a good idea.

[+x=usr(1536)]

28 minutes ago, zzip said:

Criticism is one thing, but too often the line has been crossed.   There's constant attempts for making people feel bad for backing it/buying it, or even just being interested in seeing how it goes.

 

@zzip, the following comment is not directed at you in particular.  However, as the point has been raised numerous times by multiple people, I am going to ask the following question:

 

Can you point to specific examples of this happening?

 

I'm not going to go so far as to suggest that all interactions (on both sides) have been sunbeams and unicorns, but in general the focus from the opposing camp has - by and large - been centred around Fauxtari's incompetence and the VCS' likelihood of being seen through to completion and/or hardware specs.  On occasions where someone received a jab, to the best of my recollection it was typically because they had decided to make a jab of their own and were receiving in the way that they had given.

 

Neither the pro- nor contra-VCS sides have a moral high ground here.  To reiterate: the IGG comments, Facebook page, subreddits, and also comments on AA bear that out.

 

28 minutes ago, zzip said:

Full disclosure I have not bought one, but always said I might if it turned out to not be vaporware.  I was constantly told that it either was a scam that would never come out and I was stupid for falling for it,  or I should by X, Y or Z instead.

 

Help me understand: you entered a discussion predominantly consisting of people who held a viewpoint contrary to your own, and are surprised that they didn't agree with you or change their points of view?

 

It seems like one facet of all of this that keeps being overlooked is that it makes no difference what you (or anyone else) may spend your money on.  If you really want a VCS, great, go buy one.  Buy twelve, or twenty, or seven hundred and sixty eight or howevermany it takes to make you happy.  Doing so is your prerogative, and you certainly can exercise it.  However, doing so doesn't invalidate many of the points that were raised as part of the device's development process, with the possible exception of the 'will it ship?' question.

 

And yes, I will publically state that I am glad to see that the systems are shipping; there's no reason to want to see backers get screwed out of their money regardless of my opinion of the device or company behind it.  But that doesn't change the fact that for a very, very long part of the development process, Fauxtari's ability to execute on manufacturing and delivery was looking like it had an extremely poor prognosis.

 

28 minutes ago, zzip said:

Yes it has spun out of control.  Atari VCS pages often went for hundreds of pages of mostly comments by the anti-VCS camp.

 

See also the IGG comments, Facebook page, subreddits, and also comments on AA for the corollary to that.  Like I said: nobody has a moral high ground on this one.

 

28 minutes ago, zzip said:

A criticism thread would be a good idea.

 

Can't say I've really been following the Amico saga, so have no first-hand idea how well their criticism thread has worked out for them, but from what i hear it's done some good.  Either way, couldn't hurt to start one.

[zzip]

12 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Help me understand: you entered a discussion predominantly consisting of people who held a viewpoint contrary to your own, and are surprised that they didn't agree with you or change their points of view?

I entered threads that were ostensibly about an upcoming product.   Not a debate forum.   Typically such discussions are filled with people who are interested in such products as well.   So it's really bizarre to enter a thread filled with people against the product even existing and challenge anyone who dare say they like the idea.   But yet every thread devolved into this and carried on for years.

 

18 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

However, doing so doesn't invalidate many of the points that were raised as part of the device's development process, with the possible exception of the 'will it ship?' question.

The only thing that really matters is whether it ships.   Development is messy, especially at a small cash-strapped company.   When the ST was announced they showed prototypes that were held together by tape and could barely boot.   There was skepticism in the press on whether the ST would make it to manufacturing because Atari was a mess at the time.  However most Atari fans are not aware of that fact because development wasn't under a microscope like it was with this, and we didn't have the internet to dwell on every little step and misstep like we do now. 

 

For every "shady" thing that people say happen during the development of VCS,  I can point to a similar shady thing done by the so-called "real" Atari in the past.   So most of the criticisms I've seen amount to pointless internet drama.   A lot of times the criticisms were by people whose real beefs are against the idea of 'crowdfunding' and 'viral marketing' and would rather go back to the old ways of doing things.  But lots of products use crowdfunding and viral marketing tactics, so I never saw them as criticisms against the VCS specifically.

 

Only thing I judge them on is if they ship the product (yes), and if it does what they claimed (seems to, waiting to see more reviews)

 

 

[justclaws]

It IS OK to like the VCS.
The developer of Guntech posted a video of his game, but his daughter also posted her own video.
Now, surely, if anybody is feeling a bit negative, watching this video should make you feel happier.

Of course, ALL games should be play-tested by kids. Such happiness on the darkest of days. ? 
My 4 kids are not so young, but my son is studying IT, programming games with C# and Unity.

Do you remember when YOU were so excited to play a game on a new Atari?
What a great game!

* I am not connected to the Atari company, Guntech project, or the developer.