Simon Carter Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Hi, I've been an A8 owner for the best part of 35 years, owning a 65XE and 800XL. I recently picked them both up from my father's and after getting a replacement mylar for the XE (and hopefully working magic with a load of M3 washers ?), will be restoring that to full functionality. On to the XL... I fired it up about 3 months ago, and it went straight self test, lots of dead RAM, irritating but not the end of the world. It's a Rev. D, unsocketed version. I left it alone whilst the real world got in the way, and then fired it up again yesterday. Or at least tried to... This time it just goes to a black screen. It's being tested using the RF connection to a correctly tuned TV on channel 36. This works fine with the same cables on the XE, so I can't blame the TV, or indeed the cables. Now I have zero idea regarding troubleshooting such an issue, and I know with so little information for you guys, a diagnosis would be difficult, but maybe some pointers as to where to start looking. A visual inspection of the board shows nothing to my uneducated eyes, but I can provide photos if necessary. I have just fished a dead spider out of the bottom metal tray, this I ascertained was alive in there at some point as it's tried build a homely web. Hoping this isn't a case of a literal bug in the system... Please bear in mind, my electronics skill does not exist, although, after years of reading Page 6 and Atari User, I know roughly where the main chips are. Please speak loudly and slowly... I also fully understand there may not be enough to go on here. In anticipation of your comments Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Well, given that you remember seeing memory test failures in it's previous life I think that would be a good place to start replacing the 8 DRAM chips in the 800XL... After that, we can see if symptoms change which might point to another IC. Unfortunately with an unsocketed system, you will definitely need to hone up your soldering (and desoldering) skills! There's lots of pins on those RAM chips that will have to be carefully taken care of to avoid lifting traces. Replace sockets on any you remove to avoid having to repeat that pain in the future. Practice on old PCB's if you have any... After that, having another 800XL on hand will definitely help with the troubleshooting process so you can swap parts one by one into a working system to determine if any are at fault - but since any swapping would mean desoldering, hopefully any symptoms after RAM replacement will help determine what to focus on next. Folks here on the forum can hopefully help with that! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickster Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 You might as well look for a place to send it off too or not another unit. If you have no experience removing chips, then you have a 100 percent chance of ruining the motherboard. Sorry to be a downer, but removing 8 chips is not a beginners project. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Simon Carter said: I fired it up about 3 months ago, and it went straight self test, lots of dead RAM, irritating but not the end of the world. I have a 130XE that had 44 out of 48 red RAM blocks in the OS diagnostic, my SYSCHECK 2.1 identified only 2 bad RAM chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) You may want to check out @flashjazzcat aka Jon on here, he's a uk repair superstar...Given you have no electronics it seems a bit silly asking you to change chips etc... Just have a pm with him and see how it goes...He's a lovely bloke.. PS, I have no affiliation with him, he's just been a star with helping me and many others if we get stuck...A very valued member of the forum... Edited December 20, 2020 by Mclaneinc 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almerian Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 If you have a go at repairing it, first check that your power supply is ok. Should be 5v dc under load. If you have the ingot type power supply, throw it away and get a new one https://atariage.com/forums/topic/293810-ingot-power-supply-garbage-can/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrbrevin Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 when powered on, check the 8x RAM chips for excessive heat. if the are 'MT' brand they are known to have a high failure rate. you can piggyback new RAM chips on top of the existing ones to help diagnose which one(s) has failed - be sure to align all the pins and the notch at the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Carter Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 Appreciate all the replies guys, I'm going to focus on getting the 65XE working first, just waiting on the washers. I'll take the advice regarding the lack of leccy skill, so I'll pick it up as a new hobby in the new year, rather than sending the unit off, I'll see whether I can resurrect it. If it goes well, I'll update you, if not, you'll never hear from me again ? Was going to try to pick up a working 1050/XC12 at some point but the new SIO storage options seem appealing. Many thanks Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 25 minutes ago, Simon Carter said: Appreciate all the replies guys, I'm going to focus on getting the 65XE working first, just waiting on the washers. I'll take the advice regarding the lack of leccy skill, so I'll pick it up as a new hobby in the new year, rather than sending the unit off, I'll see whether I can resurrect it. If it goes well, I'll update you, if not, you'll never hear from me again ? Was going to try to pick up a working 1050/XC12 at some point but the new SIO storage options seem appealing. Many thanks Si I started with pretty minimal soldering skills but I have managed to bring back at least half a dozen Atari Computers back from the dead as well as doing countless video and ram/os upgrades , built my own sdrive-max and sdrive-nuxx etc etc etc. I started with a dead 800xl that needed new ram, they are much better to cut your teeth on than an XE as the solder pads are much more forgiving. I have broken stuff on occasion but a parts machine is always a good thing to have Buy as good a soldering iron as you can, some solder with lead in it, flux, a decent solder sucker and some desoldering braid and you will be good to go. Plenty of people on here willing to guide you through what to do and how to do it. The latest sio devices are great, my fave is the AVG cart but Side3 and fujinet are also great choices Have fun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 On 12/20/2020 at 8:12 PM, mickster said: You might as well look for a place to send it off too or not another unit. If you have no experience removing chips, then you have a 100 percent chance of ruining the motherboard. Sorry to be a downer, but removing 8 chips is not a beginners project. I disagree, my first project was to replace all the RAM in an 800xl that I had bought from ebay (and told it was working). Got to start somewhere and it's broken anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinjinhawke Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 2 hours ago, mimo said: I disagree, my first project was to replace all the RAM in an 800xl that I had bought from ebay (and told it was working). Got to start somewhere and it's broken anyway. My first desoldering was my 130xe this fall. I removed all 8 of the right bank of RAM chips, put in sockets and new RAM. Computer is working fine daily and passes built in memory test and Sys-Check tests. I did break a ceramic capacitor while pulling out one chip but replacing that was a breeze. It is scary the first time but if it is already not working then it's an opportunity to learn something new. My soldering looks so inelegant but fortunately nobody sees that. I also have an 800xl that I want to buy an Ultimate 1mb for. Since that is already a functional machine I took it too someone with experience to socket the chips I will need to install the U1MB. Right now I have 3 items opened up and in my basement all waiting for parts to arrive. A Sears Intellivision with bad ram, an original Intellivision with unknown issue and an Atari 600XL with a bad keyboard connector and some other issue causing screen garbage and failure for SIO2SD devices to work. I have to at least try to get them running. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Horses for courses, I took to soldering straight away, I made mistakes as well...Over heating the tracks was my early mistake.. But I think the advice from Mickster is valid, a person not used to it can do a fair amount of damage that can be difficult to fix, bodging wires is never pretty.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Simon Carter said: Appreciate all the replies guys, I'm going to focus on getting the 65XE working first, just waiting on the washers. I'll take the advice regarding the lack of leccy skill, so I'll pick it up as a new hobby in the new year, rather than sending the unit off, I'll see whether I can resurrect it. If it goes well, I'll update you, if not, you'll never hear from me again ? Was going to try to pick up a working 1050/XC12 at some point but the new SIO storage options seem appealing. Many thanks Si The Fujinet is a new device that looks amazing, it has an SD card slot and can also connect to other sources via bluetooth/WIFI. https://atariage.com/forums/topic/306728-fujinet-hardware-discussion/ Edited December 23, 2020 by BillC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 13 hours ago, Mclaneinc said: Over heating the tracks was my early mistake.. I have found this useful when I want to break/cut a trace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Hey, that's a nice idea...Out of the box thinking.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsoft Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 The XLs do appear to be more resilient than the XEs to (de)soldering. If you do want to fix it yourself, I would suggest getting some cheap-as-free PC add-in boards from your local e-cycler (hopefully you have one nearby) and practicing desoldering (which is harder than soldering) on those. You might be a natural! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfollowell Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Something else that helped me was a cheap, relatively speaking, hot air rework station. It made all the difference in the world for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 What are your main uses of it Bob? I have a very cheap one that I have not needed to use as yet, my initial reason was for SMD's (forgot to get the solder paste though). I've seen FJC use them to remove broken up old sockets, always keen to learn of new things tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfollowell Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, bfollowell said: Something else that helped me was a cheap, relatively speaking, hot air rework station. It made all the difference in the world for me. Not sure if that was directed at me or not. The name is Byron, but Bob is far from the worst I've ever had to answer to! I use my rework station for any and all general desoldering. It just works much better and faster and it's much easier to use than a soldering iron, at least for me. I recently used it to remove every chip and old style socket on my partially socketed 800XL, so that I could replace the old sockets with better quality sockets and socket the chips that weren't. I may have been able to do all that with a soldering iron, but the thought of it makes me shudder. Edited December 23, 2020 by bfollowell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Yep sorry times 3, one for not making it clear, 2 for calling you Bob and 3 because I've done the same thing once before....Doh.. Hmm, I'd have to have a wee bit of practice and choose the best temperature (what do you use?) as I'be worried about returning to track lifting hell Thank you Bryon...(I've used virtual blu tack to hold the name in place now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfollowell Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Mclaneinc said: Yep sorry times 3, one for not making it clear, 2 for calling you Bob and 3 because I've done the same thing once before....Doh.. Hmm, I'd have to have a wee bit of practice and choose the best temperature (what do you use?) as I'be worried about returning to track lifting hell Thank you Bryon...(I've used virtual blu tack to hold the name in place now) No worries. If Bob is the worst name I answer to, I'm doing pretty good! After a little research, I seemed to find the range of 150 to 175C (302 to 347F) seems to be the most recommended range, but you have to play with it a little bit. I usually lean towards the higher end of that, depending on the size of the part and the solder joint I'm working on. The higher temperature melts the solder faster and lets me suck it away without leaving the heat in place longer and applying more heat than is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 My T12 iron is set to 450 degrees C 100 per cent of the time. The hot air is at 300-350 degrees C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 I keep my iron at 650F (343C) pretty much all the time. By using a decent flux and thin solder, I can still solder a 40-pin IC and have every part of it cool to the touch when done. Being quick and clean is key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 Huh. I guess I split the diff between Jon and Stephen. I like to use 63/37 flux at 750F or so (399C) most of the time. For desoldering, I usually use the Hakko FR-301. That thing is awesome and worth every penny. For vintage Atari stuff (two layer boards) I usually keep it set to about 1-1/2 on the "4-notch" scale it uses. For working on Mytek's modern 4-layer boards with power and ground planes, I bump it up to 2 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 Yeah - I have an older Hakko-808. I love it. Can drop 40 pin chips in under a minute, gravity makes them fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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