Clone Jaguar console - maybe one day?

[Shawn]

If there was a new jaguar console that could retail for $150 to $200 (tops) and still be worth while for those making it, I believe it would do well. It would need to come with at least one controller, AC and AV but it would sell in that price range. $150 would move like hot cakes. Buying up NOS 3 button controllers to go with it would work well, one of those new 6 button controllers would be even better. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Shawn

[+madman]

24 minutes ago, Shawn said:

If there was a new jaguar console that could retail for $150 to $200 (tops) and still be worth while for those making it, I believe it would do well. It would need to come with at least one controller, AC and AV but it would sell in that price range. $150 would move like hot cakes. Buying up NOS 3 button controllers to go with it would work well, one of those new 6 button controllers would be even better. 

So one of the biggest failed consoles that struggled to sell when it was current is now suddenly going to sell like hotcakes some 25+ years later? 

[Koopa64]

3 hours ago, madman said:

So one of the biggest failed consoles that struggled to sell when it was current is now suddenly going to sell like hotcakes some 25+ years later? 

It's not like it has any expectations to meet or any real competition to speak of anymore.

[Pete5125]

We do understand we live in a world that I can get a handheld clone system with 400 or more neo geo/ps1/90s arcade/nes/snes etc. For $69 or less.

 

I do believe you could sell some jag clones if you got the price down but it would also need games to come with it,

 

I Could see an Atgames type system that had 2600 games and 20 or so jag games, with a Jag controller doing good at the 50 buck price point.

[Zerosquare]

14 hours ago, bhall408 said:

Had that also included the the Jaguar firmware/bios? (jagboot) Or just that development for Jaguar was then considered "open"?

You don't need the boot ROM to run games anyways. The only thing it does is initialize the hardware, check the cartridge's digital signature and display the boot animation.

[roots.genoa]

I guess it has already been discussed (I admit I didn't read the 5 pages), but a FPGA system would be probably more accurate given the current state of Jaguar software-based emulation.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think a company like Analogue would release a Jaguar clone, at least not now when there are still more popular systems to clone like the NeoGeo. And if they had to tackle 32-bit systems, which would require more powerful FPGA chips, they'd probably do the PlayStation first anyway. Even the Saturn would be more rewarding even though it would be a tough challenge, maybe harder than the Jaguar.

 

That being said, if they could come up with a system featuring a 2600/7800 cartridge port as well, since Kev already created cores for them, it would probably make it more economically viable I guess. They could call it the "Analogue At" or something. And I'm sure it would "sell like hotcakes" - well, not like Switch hotcakes but like Analogue Pocket hotcakes who sold out in less than ten minutes.

[Bill Loguidice]

5 hours ago, Pete5125 said:

 

I Could see an Atgames type system that had 2600 games and 20 or so jag games, with a Jag controller doing good at the 50 buck price point.

It's not something any mainstream company like AtGames, Arcade1Up, etc., would bother with. No one outside the community cares about the Jaguar, so it's not a selling point. Jaguar emulation is not optimized for that type of hardware. Atari only has a small handful of Jaguar games left in its IP library (and it's the games that typically move product, not platforms). The controller requirements add additional cost. And the market for plug and plays, which goes up and down at retail, is in a very down period, so there's now even less of an appetite for ultra niche systems in the space (arcade-style and virtual pinball stuff is all the craze now and what's selling).

 

Again, the Jaguar is one of the worst selling consoles with one of the worst public reputations of all time. It's not a target for anything outside of homebrew/hobby level stuff, which, fortunately for those who care, is thriving.

 

But the way, this is not restricted to the Jaguar. Being in the position I'm in, I've had pitches given to me for all kinds of plug and plays over the years, including Vectrex, Astrocade, Odyssey2, 3DO, etc. There's a reason why you only see the usual Atari 2600, NES, SNES, Genesis, Neo Geo, and arcade stuff. Those are guaranteed sellers with the broadest range of people who remember those platforms, and, most importantly, remember the games (which again, is even more important, and have plenty well-known titles available to license).

 

There are occasional outliers like ColecoVision, Intellivision, TG-16/PC Engine, etc., that get made and released, but those tend to have other factors in their favor in addition to having sold more systems and have more nostalgia than platforms like the ones mentioned.

[+bhall408]

7 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

You don't need the boot ROM to run games anyways. The only thing it does is initialize the hardware, check the cartridge's digital signature and display the boot animation.

Great - that is basically the same as the 7800 then, and close to the Lynx... For the 7800, CPUWIZ had created a mini BIOS that did just that. 5200 also has an alternate/non-Atari boot ROM available from Altirra. Does a similar one exist for Jaguar? Or someone interested in partnering on one? If so, we may give Jaguar a go for Argon. The various existing code bases seem to get to 90 or 95% compatibility. At the very least, we could flag the incompatible titles in an initial pass.

[Zerosquare]

The BJL ROM is free and can boot games:

 

[Shawn]

On 12/26/2020 at 7:47 PM, madman said:

So one of the biggest failed consoles that struggled to sell when it was current is now suddenly going to sell like hotcakes some 25+ years later? 

 

What I should have said is that the lower the price point the more sales I could see happening. 

[Songbird]

23 hours ago, bhall408 said:

Great - that is basically the same as the 7800 then, and close to the Lynx... For the 7800, CPUWIZ had created a mini BIOS that did just that. 5200 also has an alternate/non-Atari boot ROM available from Altirra. Does a similar one exist for Jaguar? Or someone interested in partnering on one? If so, we may give Jaguar a go for Argon. The various existing code bases seem to get to 90 or 95% compatibility. At the very least, we could flag the incompatible titles in an initial pass.

@bhall408 Pretty sure all you need for a Jaguar "mini-BIOS" is to get the address stored at $404 in the header and boot the 68K code from the specified address. For most games, it's simply a $802000 boot address, but some games override this so best to check the header and boot from there.

 

It's more complicated if you want to run a Jaguar CD game, of course.

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Songbird

[+bhall408]

1 hour ago, Songbird said:

Pretty sure all you need for a Jaguar "mini-BIOS" is to get the address stored at $404 in the header and boot the 68K code from the specified address. For most games, it's simply a $802000 boot address, but some games override this so best to check the header and boot from there.

 

Good to have that confirmed, as it was implied. I do wonder what chip/register setup may be needed before you jump into the game code, but we can experiment with that.

1 hour ago, Songbird said:

It's more complicated if you want to run a Jaguar CD game, of course.

We'd just be looking to do carts initially. I think there will already be *plenty* of work to do getting the carts to run better than they do. Last time I'd tried Jaguar emulators on Android, the experience was pretty poor, although it gave hope that it is possible with enough effort.

 

[Agent X]

On 12/25/2020 at 12:41 PM, Bill Loguidice said:

I remember we had the same small handful of generally underwhelming initial titles (Trevor McFur, Raiden, etc.) available for the longest time in the store (I want to say a year+). Both the public and magazines were generally incredibly skeptical of the Jaguar (creating a feedback loop), and, frankly, with good reason.

I recall there were several magazines that were very enthusiastic about the Jaguar prior to and shortly after its release. Many of them quickly soured after the first few games came out, and the long drought began.

 

Many of the early games were very good. Cybermorph and Tempest 2000 both got excellent reviews at the time, and even Raiden was (at that time) far and away the best version of the game. The problem was that after the first four games (Cybermorph, Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy, Raiden, and Evolution: Dino Dues) were released, it was three months until the next game came out (Tempest 2000), then nearly four months until the next game came out (Wolfenstein 3D). T2K and Wolfenstein 3D were both excellent, in my opinion, but no matter what you thought of the game quality, almost everyone could agree that only 6 games after 8 months on the market was poor form.

 

The next wave of games included Alien vs. Predator and Doom, both of which were highly regarded...but also included Checkered Flag and Club Drive, which were delayed and delayed for months, only to turn out very disappointing. Both Checkered Flag and Club Drive also had the misfortune of releasing about the same time as The Need for Speed on 3DO, which led to numerous side-by-side comparisons portraying the Jaguar in a very negative light.

 

On 12/27/2020 at 6:26 AM, Pete5125 said:

I Could see an Atgames type system that had 2600 games and 20 or so jag games, with a Jag controller doing good at the 50 buck price point.

 

On 12/27/2020 at 12:27 PM, Bill Loguidice said:

It's not something any mainstream company like AtGames, Arcade1Up, etc., would bother with. No one outside the community cares about the Jaguar, so it's not a selling point. Jaguar emulation is not optimized for that type of hardware. Atari only has a small handful of Jaguar games left in its IP library (and it's the games that typically move product, not platforms). The controller requirements add additional cost. And the market for plug and plays, which goes up and down at retail, is in a very down period, so there's now even less of an appetite for ultra niche systems in the space (arcade-style and virtual pinball stuff is all the craze now and what's selling).

I doubt that a self-contained "Jaguar clone" would sell on its own, for the reasons that Bill stated.

 

I do think that there would be a possibility for a smattering of Jaguar games to be incorporated into a broader "Atari" self-contained system, which would also include more popular games from the 2600 and arcades. This appears to be what Pete5125 was suggesting.

 

I understand that this isn't something that's likely to be produced in the foreseeable future, but I wouldn't write off the concept entirely. We're already starting to see new "multi-system" consoles like the Evercade, Polymega, and Analogue Pocket. There's a chance that someone could eventually produce a Jaguar emulator or FPGA recreation for such a device.

 

Going back to what Bill was saying, the IP library is the other obstacle. Even without late releases (after the JTS merger in 1996) and homebrews, I think there are enough good Jaguar games to put in a game compilation. But, a lot of the system's best games are difficult to license. How much would it cost to get the rights to Alien vs. Predator or NBA Jam Tournament Edition? What about third-party owned IPs like Rayman, Cannon Fodder, and Flashback? Or CD games like Vid Grid and Primal Rage?

 

To sum it all up: I think the best solution to (re)introduce Jaguar games to the world would be to follow what they're doing with the Evercade: license a few key titles, and include them in a compilation. They did a good job of mixing some good 7800 games alongside well-known 2600 games in two of their "Atari collections", and even managed to put together two Lynx compilation cartridges (something I'd wanted to see for years). I think a lot of people who have never played Jaguar games would like to try a few of them, if they're affordably priced and/or paired up with other more familiar games that they already know and love.