Pre-order period for “The Sorrow of Gadhlan’ Thur” (Kai Magazine) for Intellivision begins.

[Kai_Magazine]

55 minutes ago, Black_Tiger said:

Even if it came down to a rom release I'd still like to buy the boxed materials.

 

My priority is always playing these games but I still really appreciate everything that comes with a physical release.

 

Whether it's a dedicated cart or LTO Flash plugged in your console, you have the same experience with the box, manual and overlays.

 

Even an empty labeled cart would be nice to include if rom only releases become necessary until a pcb solution is found.

 

At that point game boards or full carts could be sold to complete boxed games.

Thank you very much ^_^

Regarding the empty labeled cart, the issue is that the only cart shell manufacturer that I know of is the same who manufactures the boards: Joe from Left Turn Only.

So the only way to get cart shells nowadays (AFAIK) is to buy old Intellivision games, open them, extract the board and label, clean them, etc.

To destroy so many Intellivision original games is something that I would like to avoid if at all possible.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Kai_Magazine

[Kai_Magazine]

25 minutes ago, cmadruga said:

I think in addition to the rom, making the box/manual/overlay available to ship ahead of the cart sounds good.  Folks could choose what they prefer and their selection would count toward the pre-order deposit already made.

 

I’m not concerned about not seeing the cartridges, it’s just a matter of time.

Sure thing!

[+cmart604]

I’m definitely fine with paying for the ROM separately and would buy the box and materials as well although I’m pretty sure the boards will become available at some point. 

[Kai_Magazine]

Exelent! Thank you, but you don't need to buy them or pay them separately, you already paid for them ^_^

I would send it to you guys and in case of eventually having to refund the pre-orders, I would refund the difference (perhaps is what you meant, but I am a bit off today, sorry).

 

Let's wait and see 1 or 2 days what the other involved people have to say (regarding rom price, box and contents, etc) and we will make it happen.

[Morpheus]

I’m with Wolfy and Madruga: let’s make all things so as to avoid any losses on Kai Magazine side!??

[Kai_Magazine]

Really, really thank you very much, guys! ?

[Rev]

I would suggest waiting and selling/sending the CIB when its finally ready for those willing to wait. 
 

But in meantime offer the ROM separate at a nice price. Not part of the CIB.
 

Lets compare with modern consoles. When you purchase a physical game in the store, like Switch, you would still need to purchase it digitally in the store.  But also at full price!  
 

A new physical switch game costs 60.00 usd (sometimes less)

 

The same Switch game in the digital nintendo store would still cost 60.00 usd. 
 

But in the intellivision homebrew world, a physical game ranges from 60.00 -70.00 usd. But the roms are sold for 10.00 - 20.00 usd. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Rev

[Kai_Magazine]

On any other situation I would fully agree with that, but in this situation where a lot of people has been patiently waiting to play this game for 10 months, and they should be able to play it, making them pay again after they paid 10 months ago is something that I simply cannot do.

Anyway this situation would be an exception and it should not constitute a precedent for other releases/publishers. I fully understand what you are saying. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Kai_Magazine

[+cmadruga]

55 minutes ago, Kai_Magazine said:

 

Let's wait and see 1 or 2 days what the other involved people have to say (regarding rom price, box and contents, etc) and we will make it happen.

Good approach, let’s give time for people to chime in.

 

It will be all right! ?

 

[+stupus]

I would say make 1 last attempt to get an answer from Joe as to some timeline for the shells/pcbs. If he cant give 1 or even reply then offer all the preorders the option to get the rom/box/overlays/manual/cart label now.

And then hope at some time in the future the carts can be sent seperate with those accepting the deal knowing they would have to pay seperate shipping on the cart later or have it sent with another future purchase.

If the carts can never be made (seems unlikely) then those accepting this deal could either offer to just forgive the portion for the cart or be compensated at a later date in some way. Maybe offer another game rom, or poster or some other special item to make up the amount for the cart.

I would be happy with this option now even though I would certainly hope for a full game sometime in the future when its possible

 

thanks!

[Morpheus]

2 hours ago, Kai_Magazine said:

So the only way to get cart shells nowadays (AFAIK) is to buy old Intellivision games, open them, extract the board and label, clean them, etc.

You forgot this…

[+sixersfan105]

3 hours ago, Kai_Magazine said:

the issue is that the only cart shell manufacturer that I know of is the same who manufactures the boards: Joe from Left Turn Only.

So the only way to get cart shells nowadays (AFAIK) is to buy old Intellivision games, open them, extract the board and label, clean them, etc.

To destroy so many Intellivision original games is something that I would like to avoid if at all possible.

I'm not all that familiar with what the various INTV homebrew developers are doing these days in terms of sourcing cart shells and boards, but if many other Intellivision games continue to get released, it must be that there are other suppliers out there, right? Or is it that this particular game requires a special board that only Joe/LTO produces? Excuse my ignorance but just curious. You are well within your rights to move on to a different supplier at this point. 

[Kai_Magazine]

Yes, this was discussed earlier on this post, but there are many pages so let me summarize:

Yes, this game requires Joe/LTO carts, no other manufacturer can produce them.

This game is twice as big (in capacity) as any other board can hold, so it cannot be adapted to smaller capacity boards, it was designed for Joe's carts capacity.

Regarding other developers or other projects designed for regular size carts, the cart shells are still a problem as well, since Joe is the only cart shell manufacturer, so only those publishers who recycle original classic intellivision cart shells and use regular capacity boards can move forward, which are not many AFAIK.

As stated in previous posts, I did contact other cart manufacturers. All of them had regular capacity boards, only some offered the possibility of a save-game feature, and none of them offered cartridge shells since they bought them from Joe.

So, most of the Intellivision homebrew scene seems to be paralyzed and waiting for Joe's return.

[Kai_Magazine]

I belive that if Joe can't find the time to acomodate the scene's needs he could sell licenses so other manufacturers/publishers could use his designs for a fee.

This is common practice in other retro-scenes and areas.

For example, for a X amount of money you can manufacture 500 boards using my design.

Another example:

For every board you make, you must pay me X dollars.

 

This way Joe could get a load off his back and still get the same profit from his creations and talent.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Kai_Magazine

[Ignorama]

Regarding shipping box and cart on different times: I dont think its a good way, cause it probably causes a lot of more work for Kai_Magazine. Shipping is a time consuming process. I dont know how many got sold, but I guess its a number you actually need hours to pack all the games. And you also have to buy the materials and either bring them to the postal service, or organize that they pick the parcels up (which may isnt even possible in some countries/regions).

 

As a customer I would consider this option, depending on the additional costs, but I would like to safe Kai this work, because he doesnt really get anything out of it. So I am completely fine if he doesnt offer that.

 

The idea with making a price for the ROM and asking the paid pre orders if they would accept that price in the worst case of a refund crossed my mind as well. That said, is there any way to ensure the ROM is not spreaded for free? Because to be honest, even in the smallest projects you always have some black sheep to spit in the face of the developer. I was supporter of many NON PROFIT projects and not a single one hadnt at least a few dumbasses who resold the stuff for insanely high prices. That is the reason I did not mentioned this idea, cause I did not intended to cause any pressure. Because in the first moment the idea sounds easy and logical, but if there is no way to secure the copyright its Pandoras box and I'll be honest: I highly doubt it will stay closed.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Ignorama

[Kai_Magazine]

Thank you for your great empathy and for putting me first ^_^

I don't mind to work extra in order to send the CIB now and the carts later, really.

It will actually make me feel better. Since this started I have been carrying a heavy burden knowing that you folks are waiting for the game but we don't know when will the carts be available.

Every time I receive a message from someone asking for the game, I feel a strong opression in my chest, I feel powerless and completelly impotent, and this has been going on for 9 months so it has actually affected my mental health a bit.

So if there is a way for me to do something about it, at least partially, I am happy to do it.

Same goes for the rom. I know it will be pirated from day one;

You guys don't really know me, and you guys have good friends who might or might not ask you for the rom, and you may or may not share it with them. Then the process repeats itself with the new rom owner, and the next, and the next...

There is no ill will, but it happens.

So this is the reason I would like to know how many of you would accept the rom (for free, but if the pre-order is cancelled, the rom price would be deducted from the refund) and which would be a fair price for the rom.

If there is only 5 or 6 people willing to accept this, it is obviously not worth it due to the risk of the rom being shared with others, and then some people who have the pirated rom asking for a full refund...

[Ignorama]

If that is the case the Idea should solve at least one issue.

 

I think, but others may correct me, the usual prices for ROMs were something between 15 and 20$. Because its actually free if the final game gets released I have no problems with 20$, which was the price for TNT Cowboy iirc.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Ignorama

[Sinjinhawke]

For me it's based on expectation.  The price I paid did not include the ROM so I have no objection to paying a fee for the actual ROM release while waiting for the CIB to one day ship.

For Wizard of Wor and Cosmic Avenger I bought the ROM and then paid full price for the CIB when that happened.  

For H.E.L.I. and others I bought the CIB then later paid for the ROM.

It provides people the option they prefer, you still get $$$ and we may get more future developed games.

 

LTO encryption of the ROM is probably not an option as I think it requires Joe as well.

I do know my Ms. Pac-man ROM has my name on the title screen.  Not sure how feasible it is to encode a purchasers name in the ROM to discourage sharing.

 

 

[mdoerty]

To the best of my knowledge, this is not the only game stalled in pre-order, waiting for LTO to manufacture. 

I would love to get a ROM and would be willing to pay for it.  But I certainly prefer cartridge releases. 

 

I wonder if you could release a demo version ROM to those who have ordered the game -- so they can get a taste of it while waiting. 

(Just the first level or two, because there is no way to save the game to move to the full version). 

Then if the situation is still in stasis at the end of the year/early next year, then other options could be considered.

 

 

 

[Emanuele]

5 hours ago, Kai_Magazine said:

So this is the reason I would like to know how many of you would accept the rom (for free, but if the pre-order is cancelled, the rom price would be deducted from the refund) and which would be a fair price for the rom.

Ok for me. A fair price could be 20-25 $.

 

W Oscar! Your games are excellent!

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I waited far longer for Paprium and Pier Solar. There are other games (Not intellivision related) that I prepaid in full for a year ago that I've not heard much about. So, I'm a patient guy and willing to wait it out.

 

[+cmadruga]

To make it easier on people joining this topic, I thought about summarizing the ideas discussed so far:

 

1. Make the rom available to whoever preordered the game. Accepting the rom would mean forgoing part of the refund. 

2. Same as #1, but with the added possibility of getting the empty box, manual, overlays, label shipped ahead of the cart. That would also mean forgoing another portion of the refund. Additional shipping cost would be incurred as well when the cart is received.

3. Make rom available as an extra purchase and not part of the CIB price.

4. Make a demo rom available.

5. Just wait it out. Release date is unknown. People could get full refunds if they so wish.

 

Rom prices suggested so far range around USD 20-25.

 

If I missed anything, anyone feel free to add.

Edited October 11, 2021 by cmadruga

[Kai_Magazine]

6. if someone wants the CIB (without cart) but he does not want the rom, that is an option as well.

[Kai_Magazine]

2 hours ago, Sinjinhawke said:

For me it's based on expectation.  The price I paid did not include the ROM so I have no objection to paying a fee for the actual ROM release while waiting for the CIB to one day ship.

For Wizard of Wor and Cosmic Avenger I bought the ROM and then paid full price for the CIB when that happened.  

For H.E.L.I. and others I bought the CIB then later paid for the ROM.

It provides people the option they prefer, you still get $$$ and we may get more future developed games.

 

LTO encryption of the ROM is probably not an option as I think it requires Joe as well.

I do know my Ms. Pac-man ROM has my name on the title screen.  Not sure how feasible it is to encode a purchasers name in the ROM to discourage sharing.

Thank you ^_^

After so many months of waiting I don't feel it is right to sell the rom to the people who made the pre-purchase. 

I know this issue will not be resolved favoarbly for me at this point (unless Joe writes this week and says" hey! I am back!"), I am just looking for the least bad result. My mental health is one of my highest priorities at this point. Any profits from this game are pretty much lost whatever happens. The game sold just to cover the expenses, and any decision we make will mean losses, but I am ok with that, really.

 

Yes, LTO encryption is 100% linked to Joe.

Adding the owner's name in the title screen (or any similar thing) is easily defeated by many people in 5 minutes and a HEX editor on an unencripted rom.

 

Anyway, thank you very much for your feedback.

Brainstorming is very important at this point.

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Kai_Magazine

[Kai_Magazine]

1 hour ago, mdoerty said:

To the best of my knowledge, this is not the only game stalled in pre-order, waiting for LTO to manufacture. 

I would love to get a ROM and would be willing to pay for it.  But I certainly prefer cartridge releases. 

 

I wonder if you could release a demo version ROM to those who have ordered the game -- so they can get a taste of it while waiting. 

(Just the first level or two, because there is no way to save the game to move to the full version). 

Then if the situation is still in stasis at the end of the year/early next year, then other options could be considered.

 

 

 

Regarding a Demo:

It would be very easy if this was an arcade or a game divided in stages.

This is a "Metroidvania" game (the first one on Intellivision), a genre where there is freedom of movement on an open world, exploration, many objects and each new ability allows you to reach new areas scattered all over the world.

Exploration and freedom are THE esential soul of this game. There is no way that I can think of of making a demo version of this game without destroying its soul, its core, its real charm.

To limit the exploration in any way would mean to break the game and to create the wrong impression of the game.

Actually one of the best moments/parts is when you have access to the whole world and you can spend time exploring every corner in order to find secret items that will give you an advantadge and that will fill your inventory screen (completionism).

To cut any of this from the game in order to make it a demo is an aberration to me. I can't do it.

 

Anyway the main option that is being discussed here is to offer the rom for free to those who preordered the game already, with the only caviat being that if the worst case scenario happens or the pre-orderer (is that a word?) wishes a refund, the price of the rom would be substracted from the refund.

Considering that chances are that Joe will eventually provide the carts, that caviat is just a foot note, but it needs to be said and agreed upon.