Why C128 did stay longer than 1989?

[youxia]

I'm a great Spectrum fan but this is the first time I've ever heard that it was in any sort of competition with the PC

 

If 8-bit micros could run business soft as effectively as PCs then PCs would've never took off. The likes of Apple/TRS were actually PCs of the time, thanks to their expandability, the other micros such as Amstrads or C64 were in completely different league.  Of course, there were many small/home businesses which did use them, but that's because a) they couldn't afford the big things b) they were okay with inferior performance. Once the clone prices started falling it was a no brainer to make a switch.

 

Amiga in the 90s was as dead in the water as everything else (but consoles): few more buyers would just prolong its death throes. Maybe if 1200 had more exciting specs (especially 3D -wise) it would've helped but in the long run the clones would take over anyway.

[Hwlngmad]

1 hour ago, youxia said:

I'm a great Spectrum fan but this is the first time I've ever heard that it was in any sort of competition with the PC

 

If 8-bit micros could run business soft as effectively as PCs then PCs would've never took off. The likes of Apple/TRS were actually PCs of the time, thanks to their expandability, the other micros such as Amstrads or C64 were in completely different league.  Of course, there were many small/home businesses which did use them, but that's because a) they couldn't afford the big things b) they were okay with inferior performance. Once the clone prices started falling it was a no brainer to make a switch.

 

Amiga in the 90s was as dead in the water as everything else (but consoles): few more buyers would just prolong its death throes. Maybe if 1200 had more exciting specs (especially 3D -wise) it would've helped but in the long run the clones would take over anyway.

The IBM PC was designed with (small to large) businesses and/or corporations in mind, whereas machines like the Apple II and TRS-80s (save the Model II) were designed for home / small business.  Also, keep in mind that PC built on the foundations of the Z-80 64K CP/M machines that businesses had gravitated to in the late 70s, early 80s.  Finally, the business targeted machines that Apple, Tandy/Radio Shack/, and Commodore release did not find any success due to various factors.  The IBM PC was really the right computer (platform) at the right time and its progressive design elements really served it well long-term.

[+hloberg]

Also the world was ready for a settled design and OS by then. Up till the IBM PC there were dozens of different OS that each had to have their own special software written for it and was usually incompatible with ever one else OS. Even among the supposed unified CP/M each manufacturer had their own disk format which may or may not be read in other CP/M machines. IBM, Microsoft and the clones settled that. Software and hardware on one PC would more than likely work on another PC.

Also you could upgrade a PC with the latest and greatest without throwing it or having to do major surgery. Most hardware upgrades were just replacing a card in the PC or adding a few more memory chips.

The PC is and example of just what happens in every industry. Someone brings all the right elements together at the right time and that becomes a  standard. Much like the cell phone industry went through multiple OS and multiple designs till Apple introduces the iPhone. Now, almost all phones look and feel like an iPhone.

[Hwlngmad]

37 minutes ago, hloberg said:

Also the world was ready for a settled design and OS by then. Up till the IBM PC there were dozens of different OS that each had to have their own special software written for it and was usually incompatible with ever one else OS. Even among the supposed unified CP/M each manufacturer had their own disk format which may or may not be read in other CP/M machines. IBM, Microsoft and the clones settled that. Software and hardware on one PC would more than likely work on another PC.

Also you could upgrade a PC with the latest and greatest without throwing it or having to do major surgery. Most hardware upgrades were just replacing a card in the PC or adding a few more memory chips.

The PC is and example of just what happens in every industry. Someone brings all the right elements together at the right time and that becomes a  standard. Much like the cell phone industry went through multiple OS and multiple designs till Apple introduces the iPhone. Now, almost all phones look and feel like an iPhone.

Yep, you could just upgrade a PC without having to throw it out.  Additionally, one could replace a PC with another PC (clone) and still utilize one's programs and have them run faster.  Very beneficial for users either way, for sure.  Finally, don't forget about Android.  It and iOS are the only two cellphone OSes still around.

[Krebizfan]

The IBM PC gained an advantage over the competition in 1983 when the 256K motherboards came out. Larger memory 

3 hours ago, youxia said:

I'm a great Spectrum fan but this is the first time I've ever heard that it was in any sort of competition with the PC

 

If 8-bit micros could run business soft as effectively as PCs then PCs would've never took off. The likes of Apple/TRS were actually PCs of the time, thanks to their expandability, the other micros such as Amstrads or C64 were in completely different league.  Of course, there were many small/home businesses which did use them, but that's because a) they couldn't afford the big things b) they were okay with inferior performance. Once the clone prices started falling it was a no brainer to make a switch.

 

Amiga in the 90s was as dead in the water as everything else (but consoles): few more buyers would just prolong its death throes. Maybe if 1200 had more exciting specs (especially 3D -wise) it would've helped but in the long run the clones would take over anyway.

If someone bought a Spectrum and used the business software available for it, they would have saved about $500 compared to an XT clone. It would have been a poor experience and probably best reserved for small home businesses. It was not a major market segment, businesses without the money to buy a PC clone, but it did exist. If the business got larger and needed a disk drive to keep pace with orders, buying an XT clone at the start would have been a better investment. 

 

The IBM PC really didn't show an advantage until the 256K motherboards came around and there was software to take advantage of the extra memory. With a 64K system, Wordstar had more available memory with CP/M-80 than on the IBM PC since PC-DOS used noticeably more memory. 

[+hloberg]

Funny, when i was a kid we got about 20 original IBM PCs donated to my school. They each had a full high floppy, CGA, speaker click sounds and no joy stick. I remember thinking how bad the graphics and sound was compared with even the C64, TI99 or the Atari. I was certain the ST and the Amiga was going to kick the PC's arse.

[motrucker]

Some where back in this thread it was noted that the C-64 was sold at Toys R Us in the early '90s (with a cost to Commodore of $5.00 per). I wish I could remember what the C-64 sold for from that outlet....

Toys R Us also sold the C-128 Dcr for $189.97 - until at least 1994. (I bought three at that price).

 

 

[krslam]

59 minutes ago, motrucker said:

Some where back in this thread it was noted that the C-64 was sold at Toys R Us in the early '90s (with a cost to Commodore of $5.00 per). I wish I could remember what the C-64 sold for from that outlet....

Toys R Us also sold the C-128 Dcr for $189.97 - until at least 1994. (I bought three at that price).

 

 

Would be interesting to see the date codes on the chips in those machines, since AFAIK all 128s,  including Dcr's, were no longer being manufactured after 1989. If toys-r-us was selling 5 year old stock in '94 that might have been a blowout price. Any chance they were refurbs?

[KG7PFS]

I'm just courious, does anyone else here use the C128 in 128 mode? Or am I the only one?

[krslam]

10 hours ago, KG7PFS said:

I'm just courious, does anyone else here use the C128 in 128 mode? Or am I the only one?

Yes, I use mine in 128 mode, mostly to mess around with programming, and occasionally to play some C128-specific game.

[mozartpc27]

Still do!

[motrucker]

On 3/9/2021 at 11:30 PM, KG7PFS said:

I'm just courious, does anyone else here use the C128 in 128 mode? Or am I the only one?

I still use a C-128 only in 128 mode, for programming, GEOS, spreadsheets, even word processing every now and then. I even use CP/M (with the REU) for dBase II.

 

 

[nadir]

On 3/9/2021 at 11:30 PM, KG7PFS said:

I'm just courious, does anyone else here use the C128 in 128 mode? Or am I the only one?

I just picked up my first Commodore 128 (shout out to PwnD Games*Consoles*Accessories on ebay for the great transaction) and so far I've only used C128 mode (for programming).

[RobertB]

On 1/27/2021 at 6:50 PM, motrucker said:

Some where back in this thread it was noted that the C-64 was sold at Toys R Us in the early '90s (with a cost to Commodore of $5.00 per). I wish I could remember what the C-64 sold for from that outlet....

     The price of parts to make the C64 was down to $5 per machine.  Toys R' Us sold them at about $90 US at the end.

          Truly,

          Robert Bernardo

          Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

          Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

[dankcomputing]

Commodore dropping the C128 before dropping the C64 weirdly mirrors Apple dropping the IIGS a year before it stopped selling the IIe. They were just selling to schools too well, so well that they wound up selling a card for LC Macs that would run Apple II software as a replacement.

[carlsson]

8 hours ago, RobertB said:

The price of parts to make the C64 was down to $5 per machine.

I still think that was a bookkeeping trick, things like many items in stock that already were expensed or added as tangible assets earlier so the remaining manufacturing costs may have been $5 on paper. I'm still awaiting some internal docs from the later part of the 80's, early 90's to get more numbers to crunch, but it is possible that the sources of the previously scanned documents didn't stay onboard long enough or kept the paper trail at the end, so such documents may never emerge.

[Mazzspeed]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:25 AM, KG7PFS said:

I don'r really know, but I'd like to blame it all on The Final Cartridge III. To this day there isn't a C128 version, and that irritates me.

Because it's not possible in 128 mode.

 

The 128 uses a dedicated MMU, the C64 uses the PLA. The advantage of the PLA is Ultimax mode, this along with the DMA pin on the cartridge port gave the C64 a unique advantage over the 128.

 

Modern cartridges like the 1541 UII+ and the BackBit make maximum use of these C64 features. In all honesty, I knew of no one in the day with a 128 that used it in 128 mode, everyone used them as C64's.

[Mazzspeed]

On 3/29/2021 at 3:16 PM, dankcomputing said:

Commodore dropping the C128 before dropping the C64 weirdly mirrors Apple dropping the IIGS a year before it stopped selling the IIe. They were just selling to schools too well, so well that they wound up selling a card for LC Macs that would run Apple II software as a replacement.

There was nothing odd about that, as well as the crippling of the specs regarding the IIGS. That was all Steve Jobs doing to protect sales of his new baby the Macintosh.

 

Months after the IIGS debacle, Steve Jobs was outed from his company.

[+OLD CS1]

Back when the family had a TI-99/4A, I bought a C64 and floppy drive using lawn-mowing money.  Dad wanted to upgrade us to a C128 but I would not have any of it: it was just a big C64, I was told and pretty much saw as the only guy I knew who used his 128 in 128 mode ran a BBS and everyone else played games in 64 mode.  My school was using Apple IIs, Dad's work was using VT-100-or-whatever terminals to systems with no outside access, so there was no real reason to upgrade.  I had The Print Shop for the 64 and a bummed copy of GEOS 1.something-or-other so I was set for doing work for school.

 

Then around 1991 I got my hands on a 128 and GEOS 128. I started with that and a monochrome Apple monitor, used some native 128 programs I downloaded from BBSes, WarpSpeed (128 mode,) Desterm, desperately awaited the 128 version of Q-Link which was rumored but never appeared, a QWK reader, and more.  I used the 64 mode for programming and games (never got the hang of 128 programming.)  I started into CP/M mode in the early 90s with C, Pascal, and COBOL compilers for classes.  There were some neat demos in CP/M mode, but that was the extent of my CP/M usage.

 

Mind you, I cannot recall buying any hardware new. I know as I picked up the C64 then 128, many people had moved on to the Amiga, PC, or IIgs and Mac if they were Apple types.  That made it easier for kids like me whose income was lawn care, paper routes, and odd-jobs to purchase used Commodore stuff.  Heck, I could and often did get things from a pawn shop in town.  Would have bought my first Amiga from there, too, if we had not moved before I had money saved up.

 

I accept, however, that I might be an edge case.  I always like to use my equipment to its fullest.  It is really easy now to allow things to languish what with cheap PCs, older used PC and Mac equipment which still has life, emulators, &c.

 

tl;dr While I stay away from the 128 at first because of the perception of it being a big C64, I used my 128 mostly in 128 mode, gave it some CP/M love with a purpose, but also made mad use of C64 mode for games and programming.

[+OLD CS1]

I forgot to mention that there are programs published in various magazines (COMPUTE!'s Gazette being one of them) which allow C64 mode to use the expanded keyboard keys, switch off the VIC-II and run 2MHz mode during vblank, and to use the VDP.  I incorporated the first two into a BBS program I wrote way back when.

 

With a couple of POKEs you can run C64 mode in 2MHz mode for faster calculations and what-not.  I cannot recall the details, but the VIC-II needs to be turned off to do so.

[Mazzspeed]

10 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

With a couple of POKEs you can run C64 modem in 2MHz mode for faster calculations and what-not.  I cannot recall the details, but the VIC-II needs to be turned off to do so.

You can do the same with the NTSC Plus4, the difference is the NTSC Plus4 is faster than the 128 due to it's higher clock speed with the screen blanked.

[tommywiz]

For the c128 I remember buying a monochrome (all i could find was amber) monitor just to use in 80 column mode.

I used it strictly for BBS-ing. This was before browsers were popular.

Looked so much better than 40 column where it could be confusing.

Many BBS' used ASCII graphics and they sometimes didn't show up well or didnt fit right on a 40 column screen.

All along I'd been using 40 column mode and was impressed when I saw that all those symbols actually made a picture!

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by tommywiz

[Hwlngmad]

16 hours ago, tommywiz said:

For the c128 I remember buying a monochrome (all i could find was amber) monitor just to use in 80 column mode.

I used it strictly for BBS-ing. This was before browsers were popular.

Looked so much better than 40 column where it could be confusing.

Many BBS' used ASCII graphics and they sometimes didn't show up well or didnt fit right on a 40 column screen.

All along I'd been using 40 column mode and was impressed when I saw that all those symbols actually made a picture!

 

Definitely the C128 was a very good machine and really was much better for doing serious computer work (i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, BBS-ing) than the C64.  Too bad the 128 mode was not as utilized as what is should and/or could have been.

[tommywiz]

On 7/26/2021 at 9:02 AM, Hwlngmad said:

Definitely the C128 was a very good machine and really was much better for doing serious computer work (i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, BBS-ing) than the C64.  Too bad the 128 mode was not as utilized as what is should and/or could have been.

Exactly! I still had my C64 that I used for gaming.

The C128 in addition to BBS-ing I used for word processing. Using the C64 for these activities a PITA!!!!

Not saying that I never used the C64 side of the C128 for gaming.

I still remember the day I decided to reduce the "clutter" in my house and threw away the dang boxes!!!!! I thought who the heck keeps boxes for things you cant take back and aren't gonna use for storage! ?

Edited July 27, 2021 by tommywiz