Controller choice and high score boards

[tripletopper]

You need to carry a controller toolbox with:

 

1.5200 stock stick with worn out self centering.

2.  Either a stock stick with good centering OR both a PC flight stick and a Bohoki adapter.

3. A digital solution 

4.  A Proline Trakball

5.  A twin stick cradle and a second stick.

 

Most games have obvious high score advantages.   If there are 2 ways to do it, should be placed in separate divisions.  (Like Dreadnaught Factor, with a Diagonal Speed Boost on digital controllers vs analog's 360 degree controller)

 

Which controller gets high scores with Missile Command. A Trakball has a lot of players having to use muscle memory, vs the absolute control on a stock pad, which are better once mastered, but are very hard to master.  (Forget it if centering resistance fights back)

 

 

Because Missile Command uses absolute analog on stick, and relative analog on trackball, you play with those fundamentally differently.   I know trackball is more true to the "spirit of the game".   Which has the highest scores at the top?  Which has the highest average? Should they be separate high score divisions with this difference?

 

Any other games with this radical of a difference?

 

[phuzaxeman]

On 1/4/2021 at 8:24 PM, tripletopper said:

You need to carry a controller toolbox with:

 

1.5200 stock stick with worn out self centering.

2.  Either a stock stick with good centering OR both a PC flight stick and a Bohoki adapter.

3. A digital solution 

4.  A Proline Trakball

5.  A twin stick cradle and a second stick.

 

Most games have obvious high score advantages.   If there are 2 ways to do it, should be placed in separate divisions.  (Like Dreadnaught Factor, with a Diagonal Speed Boost on digital controllers vs analog's 360 degree controller)

 

Which controller gets high scores with Missile Command. A Trakball has a lot of players having to use muscle memory, vs the absolute control on a stock pad, which are better once mastered, but are very hard to master.  (Forget it if centering resistance fights back)

 

 

Because Missile Command uses absolute analog on stick, and relative analog on trackball, you play with those fundamentally differently.   I know trackball is more true to the "spirit of the game".   Which has the highest scores at the top?  Which has the highest average? Should they be separate high score divisions with this difference?

 

Any other games with this radical of a difference?

 

I don't agree that just because you use a trackball vs the stock controllers your fundamentally change your play.  And you don't need to change divisions either.

 

The high score is dependent on the person and his preference.  I prefer the analog sticks.  I've gotten high scores with it too. 

[tripletopper]

16 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I don't agree that just because you use a trackball vs the stock controllers your fundamentally change your play.  And you don't need to change divisions either.

 

The high score is dependent on the person and his preference.  I prefer the analog sticks.  I've gotten high scores with it too. 

I'm not saying definitely put them in two different divisions.  I'm saying if one has an obvious advantage and no obvious disadvantage there MAY be a case of placing the lower score in a separate category.

 

however usually the achiever of that goal declares that as a stipulation for that particular title.  Like "blindfolded Mike Tyson.". The achiever self-segregates that record.

 

I know MAME and real arcade hardware are separate categories, as well as separate home versions, sub-categorized by real consoles vs emulated ones.

 

some people could say that you have to use slightly different strategies for stock controller Missile Command versus trackball controller Missile Command.  Since stock controller Missile Command requires a precise hand to go quickly from one portion of the screen to the other in a frame, versus trakball Missile Command where you can't instantly warp your cursor from one point to another you have to roll the ball there, (Granted it's a fairly fast roll but it may be more controlled and more precisely hit if it takes time to get there versus instantaneous pinpoint point-to-point movement) a strategy in stock control Missile Command would be the exactly hit the point shoot a missile and go immediately to the next Point quickly, where is Trakball Missile Command you have to plan your route more carefully.)

 

And Dreadnought Factor you could go at 141% of your vector speed if you use diagonals versus Cardinals using a digital joystick that doesn't compensate for the circular restrictor.  But with the analog you have more directions you could go in so it's not just a cardinal or diagonal but many directions in between.

 

There's also a possibility that the best stock stick score can't do well with the trackball and vice versa.   like for example when Street Fighter 2 tournaments were mainly in the arcade, I wouldn't do well because they all have left-handed controllers.

 

Also isn't the whole point of Defender to have very complex controls like a supposedly real starship?  Changing thrust and reverse to left and right changes the mechanics of operating the ship and therefore is not different enough than any other typical shooter at the time.  When most people think of Defender in the arcade they think of the complex layout.

 

 

[phuzaxeman]

5 hours ago, tripletopper said:

I'm not saying definitely put them in two different divisions.  I'm saying if one has an obvious advantage and no obvious disadvantage there MAY be a case of placing the lower score in a separate category.

 

however usually the achiever of that goal declares that as a stipulation for that particular title.  Like "blindfolded Mike Tyson.". The achiever self-segregates that record.

 

I know MAME and real arcade hardware are separate categories, as well as separate home versions, sub-categorized by real consoles vs emulated ones.

 

some people could say that you have to use slightly different strategies for stock controller Missile Command versus trackball controller Missile Command.  Since stock controller Missile Command requires a precise hand to go quickly from one portion of the screen to the other in a frame, versus trakball Missile Command where you can't instantly warp your cursor from one point to another you have to roll the ball there, (Granted it's a fairly fast roll but it may be more controlled and more precisely hit if it takes time to get there versus instantaneous pinpoint point-to-point movement) a strategy in stock control Missile Command would be the exactly hit the point shoot a missile and go immediately to the next Point quickly, where is Trakball Missile Command you have to plan your route more carefully.)

 

And Dreadnought Factor you could go at 141% of your vector speed if you use diagonals versus Cardinals using a digital joystick that doesn't compensate for the circular restrictor.  But with the analog you have more directions you could go in so it's not just a cardinal or diagonal but many directions in between.

 

There's also a possibility that the best stock stick score can't do well with the trackball and vice versa.   like for example when Street Fighter 2 tournaments were mainly in the arcade, I wouldn't do well because they all have left-handed controllers.

 

Also isn't the whole point of Defender to have very complex controls like a supposedly real starship?  Changing thrust and reverse to left and right changes the mechanics of operating the ship and therefore is not different enough than any other typical shooter at the time.  When most people think of Defender in the arcade they think of the complex layout.

 

 

Do you own a 5200?  

[tripletopper]

I admit I only got it in the 90s when I was thrifting, so in one sense the answer is no in that I didn't have it during "back in the day."  I was more of a Coleco guy.  But in another sense I do have a 5200 as a physical system through thrifting.

 

I found one of those digital joysticks (those coin competition joysticks) in a lot box at a thrift store. A 4 port system, a working power cord for that system, 2 regular controls, 1 Coin Competition and 5 games for $15 in 1997. 

I

Inderstand that a diagonal would be 100% in both cardinals therefore 141% in radius (x^2 +y^2 = r^2 ) therefore having diagonal speed boosts in Dreadnought Factor. I know some games mess up with that. there are few games you could test to see if diagonal screw them up like Qix, Vanguard, Mountain King, Popeye.  All of them are 4-way games.

 

I've never gotten a 5200 controller when it was new so I assumed that it was intentionally free floating.  Did any one else  feel fatigue fighting the centering of the stick in Kaboom, Warlords, or Super Breakout on either a Playstation 4, Xbox One, Switch, or even a 5200 controller  (when new) ?

 

as a coleco guy I would say the coleco is larger and more detailed in graphics  than the 5200 but the 5200 has arcade like speeds and fluid animations.  It was probably the original case of Genesisn't and Nintendon't.

Edited January 7, 2021 by tripletopper
Added extra thought.

[phuzaxeman]

12 minutes ago, tripletopper said:

I admit I only got it in the 90s when I was thrifting, so in one sense the answer is no in that I didn't have it during "back in the day."  I was more of a Coleco guy.  But in another sense I do have a 5200 as a physical system through thrifting.

 

I found one of those digital joysticks (those coin competition joysticks) in a lot box at a thrift store. A 4 port system, a working power cord for that system, 2 regular controls, 1 Coin Competition and 5 games for $15 in 1997. 

I

Inderstand that a diagonal would be 100% in both cardinals therefore 141% in radius (x^2 +y^2 = r^2 ) therefore having diagonal speed boosts in Dreadnought Factor. I know some games mess up with that. there are few games you could test to see if diagonal screw them up like Qix, Vanguard, Mountain King, Popeye.  All of them are 4-way games.

 

I've never gotten a 5200 controller when it was new so I assumed that it was intentionally free floating.  Did any one else  feel fatigue fighting the centering of the stick in Kaboom, Warlords, or Super Breakout on either a Playstation 4, Xbox One, Switch, or even a 5200 controller  (when new) ?

 

The 5200 controller is the most comfortable joystick in that era.  The fatigue was greatly felt with coleco and intellivision.  Games that use 5200 analog sticks like Super Breakout, Galaxian, Centipede, Pole Position etc make it so fun to play.  Plus I've got some pretty good scores as well from the stock sticks.  I'll never use anything else. 

 

Btw, broken in rebuild sticks with new flex and gold dot buttons are better than a new atari stick for me. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by phuzaxeman

[tripletopper]

Yes, I heard of Best Electronics fixed sticks.  I heard there is an official bulldef who builds for them I heard are the best way to enjoy the 5200.. I got 3 control corpses that I can recycle.

 

I have a 4 port and got 3 (old)  sticks.  Assuming I have 4 players, are there any games worth getting third and even a fourth stick fixed for (that you think are worth it.  Both BITD releases and Retrobrews worth getting an Everdrive-like  5200 SD card adapter for?) 

 

If Tutankham were released, with  the fact that 4 buttons are mirrored, you can have both main/aux fire games and l/r fire games covered easily.  Start with your right fire button (top or bottom, the other side is left and other height)  That's a way to ambidexterize L/R games on 5200.

 

BTW, if I have a Coin Competition. Would you think it be best to leave them free floating, or should I get that factory snap back?

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by tripletopper
Added extra thought.

[phuzaxeman]

9 minutes ago, tripletopper said:

Yes, I heard of Best Electronics fixed sticks.  I heard there is an official bulldef who builds for them I heard are the best way to enjoy the 5200.. I got 3 control corpses that I can recycle.

 

I have a 4 port and got 3 (old)  sticks.  Assuming I have 4 players, are there any games worth getting third and even a fourth stick fixed for (that you think are worth it.  Both BITD releases and Retrobrews worth getting an Everdrive-like  5200 SD card adapter for?) 

 

If Tutankham were released, with  the fact that 4 buttons are mirrored, you can have both main/aux fire games and l/r fire games covered easily.  Start with your right fire button (top or bottom, the other side is left and other height)  That's a way to ambidexterize L/R games on 5200.

 

BTW, if I have a Coin Competition. Would you think it be best to leave them free floating, or should I get that factory snap back?

 

I don't know what is a coin competition, bulldef, and never played tutankham.  I'm a 5200 purist when it comes to controls.

 

MULE, Castle Crisis, Super Breakout, Magical Fairy (3 players) are games for 4 players.  Not many games for 4 port support. 

[tripletopper]

Do you believe the self centering should be repaired too or just the buttons with the gold dots and new circuits?

 

BTW.the "coin competition"  (really the "Competition Pro Joystick," the company has Coin in the name) is the brand name of a back in the day third party digital stick with a built in y adapter for a 5200 controller used for keypad functions.

 

And since I have one, I shouldn't need self centering on the stock controller.

[phuzaxeman]

56 minutes ago, tripletopper said:

Do you believe the self centering should be repaired too or just the buttons with the gold dots and new circuits?

 

BTW.the "coin competition"  (really the "Competition Pro Joystick," the company has Coin in the name) is the brand name of a back in the day third party digital stick with a built in y adapter for a 5200 controller used for keypad functions.

 

And since I have one, I shouldn't need self centering on the stock controller.

Self centering should be by the person and guided by the rubber piece. It gives the user total control. Gold dots and flex circuit is all you need. 

[tripletopper]

I agree in "yourself" centering, not "itself" centering, ...

 

at least on the 5200.

 

If I want a self centering stick, for platformers, I got the competition Pro.

 

If I don't, I got the original stick.

 

You have to use a steering wheel attachment with unsanded plastic gears to play Warlords and other paddle games on PS4/X1 emulated and online play.  (I don't want to fight recentering on paddle games)

[+Ryan Witmer]

12 hours ago, tripletopper said:

Assuming I have 4 players, are there any games worth getting third and even a fourth stick fixed for (that you think are worth it.  Both BITD releases and Retrobrews worth getting an Everdrive-like  5200 SD card adapter for?)

I'm not going to make any claims as to whether they're worthwhile, but two of my games support extra controller ports.  Ratcatcher has a three player mode and RealSports Curling has 4 and 8 player modes that use all four ports.

 

Magical Fairy Force doesn't use the extra ports, but does support the trak-ball.

[tripletopper]

Should I assume curling is  2 teams of four, alternating one team at a time, when it is "their ups".

 

I'd be willing to try.  I know what to expect in curling, team pseudo-shuffleboard/bocce on ice.  One person throws, 2 hasten/slow/curve along the middle, and one is the ending finishish job hastening/braking/steering.

 

All hastenings/breakings/steering a must be done by manipulation of ice in its path via broom-like scraper/sweepers.

 

Hey, on Rat Catcher  what would the box copy say if you saw it in a retail store?