Software 80 Columns

[Mazzspeed]

32 minutes ago, FifthPlayer said:

@Mazzspeed Thanks for that screenshot of Interword - having owned an Amiga back in the day it was interesting to see the Amiga look and feel adapted to an 8-bit application.  Personally, I think discussing the C64 in the context of a larger discussion about A8 stuff (as I feel you've been doing) is not unwelcome.

 

If I could explain a little bit about the culture of the A8 world and why you received some hostility in this thread.  As A8 enthusiasts, we exist in the shadow of Atari's big mainstream success, the 2600.  The A8 platform was pretty obscure even in the day to those who knew about Atari.  I'm on a Facebook group about the A8 and there's a continual stream of people who ignore the group rules and post stuff about the 2600.  I owned a 2600, loved the games, have a 2600 Flashback now, still enjoy the games, but I don't need to hear about the Atari 2600 in every single Atari group I frequent.  The 2600 gets more than it's share of love and attention, sometimes I'd like to have a place where I can talk about the Atari platform I like the best.

 

So yes, some get upset about off-topic C64 posts.  But a lot of A8 fans are fatigued over living in the shadow of the 2600 (and to a lesser extent the ST), are already at the limits of their patience from being marginalized within their own community and they don't have the patience one would normally expect with an outsider.  That said, there are many more polite ways they could have used to voice their concerns.

I understand, I don't want to harp over this negativity anymore than needed. My intent was never malicious with some underlying intent to take the spotlight off the A8 - That would be childish and stupid in such a forum. Comparison creates advancement, purism creates bitterness with nothing to aspire to no matter what the platform.

 

Anyway, back on topic. I found VI65, which is a VIM clone for most 8bit machines - A8, Commodore and Apple included. Now I have no bloody idea how to use VIM (does anyone?), but the various modes look great.

 

http://singularcrew.hu/vi65/

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[+Stephen]

I must say, software and platforms aside, the geometry on that 1084S is spot on!  This is really making me want to tear int my 1084S and get it back to new condition.

[Gunstar]

The first VI65 image I did a triple take on, and had to look really hard to realize you did indeed type out "80" columns and it wasn't a typo that I thought said 28 columns the first two times. I think that tells me enough about how readable it's 80 column mode is for me; it's the worst 80-column software mode I've ever seen in and out of this thread. The 64 column mode looks fine, the 53 column mode, though it looks fine, I almost don't see the point; I might as well just use 40-columns.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

I must say, software and platforms aside, the geometry on that 1084S is spot on!  This is really making me want to tear int my 1084S and get it back to new condition.

Me too.

[Mazzspeed]

Thanks for the comments regarding the 1084S, I've worked hard getting it right. Only a few days ago I made a new chroma/luma cable with separate individually shielded chroma/luma connections as a result of this very thread - Definitely made a difference.

 

One thing worth pointing out is the software also has a 'VDC' variant. Now I can't run this mode, the machine crashes - So I assume (I haven't read into it much) that 'VDC' means Video Display Card (as in third party 80 column card)? Interesting. I also agree that the 80column font is hard to read, I think it's a great example on how important the font is when it comes to software 80 column solutions.

 

[FifthPlayer]

Many moons ago, as a student I used an 80-column terminal app called "VT-10-squared" to dial into my school timesharing computers.  It was a VT-100 emulator with built-in software 80 column support.  I remember that it worked well enough although I think there might have been a glitch or two with the VT100 emulation.  I found a download link to it on this page but unfortunately the .arc file is password-protected.   I wanted to give it a go to see how well it compares with modern stuff like ICE-T and Flickerterm.  If someone knows another source please post here.

 

EDIT: did some more searching and found a link to a .zip here on AA:

EDIT 2: Just tried the app and discovered that it supports only 300 and 1200 baud, which makes it pretty much useless for modern-day use.

Edited February 6, 2021 by FifthPlayer
AA dl link

[Mazzspeed]

Is there anyone with a hardware 80 column equipped A8 that can try that 'VDC' variant of VM65? I'm curious to see if it's supported by any mainstream solutions and how it looks.

[FifthPlayer]

1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

Is there anyone with a hardware 80 column equipped A8 that can try that 'VDC' variant of VM65? I'm curious to see if it's supported by any mainstream solutions and how it looks.

 

I downloaded the Zip file, and the only binaries with a "VDC" version are for Commodore machines: the C64 and C128.  Did the C64 have some sort of "standard" hardware extension for 80 columns, perhaps via the cartridge port?  The manual says there's a version for Apple II but interestingly there is no Apple II executable in the zip.  There are what appears to be four binaries for A8 machines, for 40, 53, 64 and 80 columns respectively.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by FifthPlayer

[Mazzspeed]

1 hour ago, FifthPlayer said:

 

I downloaded the Zip file, and the only binaries with a "VDC" version are for Commodore machines: the C64 and C128.  Did the C64 have some sort of "standard" hardware extension for 80 columns, perhaps via the cartridge port?  The manual says there's a version for Apple II but interestingly there is no Apple II executable in the zip.  There are what appears to be four binaries for A8 machines, for 40, 53, 64 and 80 columns respectively.

 

Oh, that's disappointing. Like the A8, the C64 had some 80 column solutions, but no real standard was adopted meaning 80 column hardware support was thin.

 

I downloaded the A8 binaries and mounted the folder as a virtual SDX floppy under Altirra, but nothing shows up when I go to the drive via SDX?

[ggn]

16 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

Now I have no bloody idea how to use VIM (does anyone?)

Sure, here's a super condensed crash course:

 

• vi/vim has 2 modes, one is where you edit text (insert mode) and one where you issue commands by pressing keys (command mode).
• By default you are in command mode. To switch to insert mode press i. You can now start typing as usual. No commands can be entered while in insert mode (well, they can, but it's outside scope for now)
• Switch back to command mode by pressing ESC
• There's a whole bunch of commands built into vi/vim, depending on the version you're running. Here's a few of the most useful/common ones apart from i:
• A to go to the end of the line and switch to insert mode, i.e. append. (Note that this is capital A, you need to press shift+a)
• /TEXT to search for the string TEXT (change that to the string you want to search for). Execute the command by pressing return
• ^ will move to the start of the current line
• $ will move to the end of the current line
• Type a number and press G to go to that line
• GG will move to the end of the text
• yy will copy the current line to the "copy" buffer
• dd will delete the current line and copy it to the "copy" buffer
• p will paste the copy buffer before the cursor
• P will paste the copy buffer after the cursor
• m[a-z] will mark the current cursor position into buffers a to z
• '[a-z] will move the cursor to the recorded position a-z
• :efilename.ext will load filename.ext
• :wfilename.ext will save filename.ext

That's enough to get anyone started. There's a whole culture of tricks and features to discover - even the page vi65 is hosted has quite a few of them. I'll leave it for people to discover if they feel comfortable with vi/vim.

[Mazzspeed]

6 hours ago, ggn said:

Sure, here's a super condensed crash course:

 

• vi/vim has 2 modes, one is where you edit text (insert mode) and one where you issue commands by pressing keys (command mode).
• By default you are in command mode. To switch to insert mode press i. You can now start typing as usual. No commands can be entered while in insert mode (well, they can, but it's outside scope for now)
• Switch back to command mode by pressing ESC
• There's a whole bunch of commands built into vi/vim, depending on the version you're running. Here's a few of the most useful/common ones apart from i:
• A to go to the end of the line and switch to insert mode, i.e. append. (Note that this is capital A, you need to press shift+a)
• /TEXT to search for the string TEXT (change that to the string you want to search for). Execute the command by pressing return
• ^ will move to the start of the current line
• $ will move to the end of the current line
• Type a number and press G to go to that line
• GG will move to the end of the text
• yy will copy the current line to the "copy" buffer
• dd will delete the current line and copy it to the "copy" buffer
• p will paste the copy buffer before the cursor
• P will paste the copy buffer after the cursor
• m[a-z] will mark the current cursor position into buffers a to z
• '[a-z] will move the cursor to the recorded position a-z
• :efilename.ext will load filename.ext
• :wfilename.ext will save filename.ext

That's enough to get anyone started. There's a whole culture of tricks and features to discover - even the page vi65 is hosted has quite a few of them. I'll leave it for people to discover if they feel comfortable with vi/vim.

This is actually quite useful as you go into detail in an attempt to explain things! I had no idea there was two modes, to type out those screens I just lucked upon pressing 'i' to type text.

 

I've printed your explanation, thanks.

[scottinNH]

I've been a heavy vim user since I first tried Slackware.

IF you want power of easy search/replace/macros and low memory usage, it's really "the" text editor.

 

But if you're new to it, spend 15 minutes searching for a "cheat sheet" you can print out.

Especially know how to "escape" out of different modes. 

 

For tricks, google on "sed" expressions and commands. Simple sed stuff will work in command-mode of vi.

There's plenty of pages showcasing what sed can do (which you won't always find presented for vim. It's another doc resource, is what I'm saying)

[scottinNH]

So the software 80 and 64 column modes... can these drivers be imported into CC65?

I know cc65 has "built in 80 column support", but only for non-Atari.

 

Basically I'm writing a cross-platform text game, and it'd really be nice (for formatting) if I could assign text mode size, or query the OS for whatever modes are available (and which one is active)

[+David_P]

The challenge of a software based 80 column mode on the Atari is its RAM footprint - you lose about 10K of RAM for the screen, character set and device handler.

 

[xxl]

21 minutes ago, David_P said:

The challenge of a software based 80 column mode on the Atari is its RAM footprint - you lose about 10K of RAM for the screen, character set and device handler.

 

doable:

 

https://xxl.atari.pl/xe/

 

 

[+SpiceWare]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:25 PM, Mazzspeed said:

So I assume (I haven't read into it much) that 'VDC' means Video Display Card (as in third party 80 column card)?

 

VDC is the MOS 8563 Video Display Controller, the Commodore 128's 80 column chipset.

 

A C=64 program running on a 128 can access the VDC, the extra keys on the keyboard, and even switch to 2 MHz mode. The program must do all the work though as while those registers are visible in 64 mode, there are no built in C=64 KERNEL routines to support them.

[scottinNH]

On 9/10/2022 at 3:38 PM, David_P said:

The challenge of a software based 80 column mode on the Atari is its RAM footprint - you lose about 10K of RAM for the screen, character set and device handler.

 

Ack.  I don't think that's the reason.

Clearly there's others who don't mind 10K cost, because it already exists.

It's just not in a form thats consumable in CC65.

 

I'm starting to love cc65, although I'm still a C novice so I can't judge how difficult it is to embed E80 into a C library. 

[Irgendwer]

5 hours ago, scottinNH said:

I'm starting to love cc65, although I'm still a C novice so I can't judge how difficult it is to embed E80 into a C library. 

Why do you like to have a library for that? You could just attach the driver as part of the resulting compound file and use the standard CIO output functions.

[reifsnyderb]

On 9/10/2022 at 4:00 PM, xxl said:

doable:

 

https://xxl.atari.pl/xe/

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by reifsnyderb

[reifsnyderb]

On 9/10/2022 at 3:38 PM, David_P said:

The challenge of a software based 80 column mode on the Atari is its RAM footprint - you lose about 10K of RAM for the screen, character set and device handler.

 

It would be nice to bank that 10k.

[+DjayBee]

27 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

It would be nice to bank that 10k.

From my understanding, this should be possible with a 130XE or CompyShop extension which have separate banking for ANTIC.

 

The existing 80 column E: driver could be extended with some logic to create its display list in an extended bank and temporarily bank switch every time it writes something to the screen.

[reifsnyderb]

4 minutes ago, DjayBee said:

From my understanding, this should be possible with a 130XE or CompyShop extension which have separate banking for ANTIC.

 

The existing 80 column E: driver could be extended with some logic to create its display list in an extended bank and temporarily bank switch every time it writes something to the screen.

Well, if somebody wants to extend the E: driver, I'd be happy to modify the PBI RAM card to add ANTIC banking on an XL.  (The XL would have to have one extra wire soldered from /HALT to an unused pin on the PBI.)  Making a 1090 card to do the same wouldn't be hard, either.

[ivop]

On 2/7/2021 at 3:50 PM, ggn said:

• Type a number and press G to go to that line
• GG will move to the end of the text

Haha, never knew this. I do:

 

:123 to go that line

:$ to go to the end of the text

 

And I keep pressing ESC in the AtariAge editor while typing these commands

[+David_P]

5 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

It would be nice to bank that 10k.

If you have a computer with an XE compatible RAM upgrade with ANTIC banking, you could do this, and reduce the footprint in main memory.  However, you then run risk of interfering with DOSes that may want to use the RAM.  There's no kernal-level memory management inherent in the Atari OS.

 

If you are running SDX, there is a memory manager you can call, however, while I believe you can reserve a full bank via SDX, you cant specify that it be an ANTIC-bankable bank.  And you're then locked in to SDX for your program.  (And besides, SDX already has its own 64 and 80 column drivers)

[scottinNH]

On 9/16/2022 at 5:37 AM, Irgendwer said:

Why do you like to have a library for that? You could just attach the driver as part of the resulting compound file and use the standard CIO output functions.

Oh. I infer this sounds doable from CC65 then, that's good to know.

 

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the Atari platform (or C) to work out how, exactly. I don't even know all the things I don't know, lol/

 

I'll get there eventually, but right now I'm only competent enough to take the simple happy-path to something (like a library).

----

I'm starting to port some of David Ahl's Basic Computer Games into CC65-friendly (but not Atari-specific) code. See other thread.