Atari 800 VBXE installation

[candle]

Here is my attempt on installing VBXE into Incognito Atari 800

this is rather how not to do it, since space inside RF shielding is very limited, but, with a proper slot-3 adapter board it should be a lot easier

i'll publish some more detail plus required JED update a bit later, as i'm still waiting for some feedback from other people attempting this installation

also - updating JED should make Bit3 card working

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

The top men did a top job. Thanks for your quick action, collaboration, and implementation.

awesome.

[Mazzspeed]

Good to see the 'ol 800 getting some love, an outright tank of a machine.

[+Stephen]

Hmm - I think I've decided where my next VBXE will be installed

[+DrVenkman]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Hmm - I think I've decided where my next VBXE will be installed

I was thinking the same, but @candle's passing reference to a VBXE 3 in a different thread may make me hold off a bit. I would dearly love the VBXE's high-res output through DVI rather than RGB, which is such a PITA to most of us in North America. If that product appears or more details arrive indicating it would have DVI, I'd buy in a heartbeat. Probably two of them. 

[candle]

this will take some time (VBXE3 that is) - considering my workload

for ntsc systems vbxe, despite of having rgb output is actually easy way out, since you can set core to VGA and you're done

for FX core you need to change crystal to 28.something MHz (twice the original one) but this is all you have to do

 

[+DrVenkman]

14 minutes ago, candle said:

or ntsc systems vbxe, despite of having rgb output is actually easy way out, since you can set core to VGA and you're done

Really?! Can this be done by the end-user and if so, how? ? 

EDIT: to be clear, my VBXE system is setup for PAL output, but we still don't have access to PAL-compatible RGB monitors without spending an inordinate amount of money.

Edited January 24, 2021 by DrVenkman

[candle]

just enter configuration utility, and see list of the cores you have installed

there is GTIA only core that runs in VGA mode you could use just with your current setup as it runs from 14mhz clock

if this works with you you could buy just crystal and go for it all the way

 

as for synchronisation, you need to connect CSYNC to both VSYNC and HSYNC of your monitor

most will handle this correcly

 

VGA cores are in the core pack for almost 11 years right now

 

50Hz VGA capable monitor is hit and miss (some do work, others don't), but with 60Hz you're golden

 

[+Spancho]

Can a PAL machine run a VBXE with 28Mhz as well to get 60Hz VGA?

[+Stephen]

I am gonna guess no because the ANTIC / GTIA (in this case VBXE) combo, is what drives the underlying vertical refresh rate, based on region.

[candle]

no, VBXE does not generate synchronisation signals, antic and gtia do that

 

[+Spancho]

?

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, Spancho said:

Can a PAL machine run a VBXE with 28Mhz as well to get 60Hz VGA?

Mine could, because I use a very nice RGB2VGA upscaler/converter box which can take either 50/60Hz PAL/NTSC signal and converts it to 60Hz VGA and it works perfectly on-the-fly with absolutely no lag, with my Atari Jaguar that I modified for either 50/60Hz, and would do the same for VBXE with my PAL converted 800, that currently, until I get a replacement Sophia 2 for the dead one I got, I'm using a video2VGA upscaler/converter that does the exact same thing (same brand as RGB converter) for my 50Hz s-video out on my 800. No need for me to change to a VGA core. Though since I will have a Sophia 2 in my 800 eventually, I'll be doing this with a VBXE for my PAL converted 1200XL. I've had no worries about compatible monitors for PAL/NTSC for well over a decade with my upscaler/converters, I just use standard CRT or LCD VGA monitors.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Gunstar

[Faicuai]

19 hours ago, candle said:

Here is my attempt on installing VBXE into Incognito Atari 800

this is rather how not to do it, since space inside RF shielding is very limited, but, with a proper slot-3 adapter board it should be a lot easier

i'll publish some more detail plus required JED update a bit later, as i'm still waiting for some feedback from other people attempting this installation

also - updating JED should make Bit3 card working

 

 

I will provide my feedback assuming you want to hit BIG, out of the park, with this product.

 

You know well what the problem is, here: this is a solution conceived for a system that has a different (or none?) expansion model than the 800. It will not work for a large crowd, for lager-volume sales (assuming that is what you want, of course).

 

What you want would be an integrated VBXE+CPU card, taking full advantage of horizontal span inside of shield. Two-sided soldering may be needed when designing that board, the right way. Once ready, only the external clock will be left to deal with, and maybe collecting a few extra signal-points. Precious Slot-3 will be left completely free. A small video-ribbon strategically located will be the only thing to extract and your proposed extraction path is excellent. A small (internal-only) indent will have to be cut on the top metal-shield cover, but that is easy, non-visible from the outside, and fully functional. Enough to make it mandatory for any 800 user. It paves the way for future PBI-ribbon extraction, effortlessly and cleanly.

 

I will not be surprised if, sooner than later, we see a card like the current SCCC but with SOPHI-II or similar, on-board. And when that happens, my friend, that would be game over, because what has nowadays a stronger recall in the minds of end users is quick installation of a VIDEO INTERFACE HDMI/DVI upgrade (a lot less people are interested in a new video-subsystem, although VBXE benefits are more than evident, and super-well supported in SDX). That makes sense because digital HDMI and DVI out puts will substantially increase sharpness and, importantly, final on-display chrominance resolution from the Atari's existing output, with excellent luma and chroma purity. Enough to get you going for ages.

 

Now, if you tell me that VBXE will be displaying this as my splash-screen on BIOS-setup, I may re-consider...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Faicuai

[Mazzspeed]

3 hours ago, Faicuai said:

I will provide my feedback assuming you want to hit BIG, out of the park, with this product.

 

You know well what the problem is, here: this is a solution conceived for a system that has a different (or none?) expansion model than the 800. It will not work for a large crowd, for lager-volume sales (assuming that is what you want, of course).

 

What you want would be an integrated VBXE+CPU card, taking full advantage of horizontal span inside of shield. Two-sided soldering may be needed when designing that board, the right way. Once ready, only the external clock will be left to deal with, and maybe collecting a few extra signal-points. Precious Slot-3 will be left completely free. A small video-ribbon strategically located will be the only thing to extract and your proposed extraction path is excellent. A small (internal-only) indent will have to be cut on the top metal-shield cover, but that is easy, non-visible from the outside, and fully functional. Enough to make it mandatory for any 800 user. It paves the way for future PBI-ribbon extraction, effortlessly and cleanly.

 

I will not be surprised if, sooner than later, we see a card like the current SCCC but with SOPHI-II or similar, on-board. And when that happens, my friend, that would be game over, because what has nowadays a stronger recall in the minds of end users is quick installation of a VIDEO INTERFACE HDMI/DVI upgrade (a lot less people are interested in a new video-subsystem, although VBXE benefits are more than evident, and super-well supported in SDX). That makes sense because digital HDMI and DVI out puts will substantially increase sharpness and, importantly, final on-display chrominance resolution from the Atari's existing output, with excellent luma and chroma purity. Enough to get you going for ages.

 

Now, if you tell me that VBXE will be displaying this as my splash-screen on BIOS-setup, I may re-consider...

 

 

 

 

 

Reading....Reading....Interesting....

 

Oh Mamma! ?

[candle]

to see this lady in format she deserves, requires either foldable monitor or scrolling picture

for first one i can't do anything, but for the other one i see no problems of using this as splash screen

 

horizontal span of cpu board is not that great considering you can't find smaller antic or gitia chips, even 6502 aren't getting any smaller, so this estate is already wasted

double sided placement is also not that important, since it will allow only some improovement over existing problems

 

precious slot3? what is so precious about slot3? any current development that are good enough to keep it empty?

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, candle said:

precious slot3? what is so precious about slot3? any current development that are good enough to keep it empty?

The only thing I could even think of for this slot, is the BIT-3 card.  Obviously, there would be zero reason to keep that if using a VBXE so I see no reason to not.

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, candle said:

to see this lady in format she deserves, requires either foldable monitor or scrolling picture

for first one i can't do anything, but for the other one i see no problems of using this as splash screen

 

horizontal span of cpu board is not that great considering you can't find smaller antic or gitia chips, even 6502 aren't getting any smaller, so this estate is already wasted

double sided placement is also not that important, since it will allow only some improovement over existing problems

 

precious slot3? what is so precious about slot3? any current development that are good enough to keep it empty?

 

Again, it is about thinking in terms of the existing assets. I fail to see any reason for not re-aligning, re-orienting, and re-positioning the chip-set sockets on the board, and make way for VBXE components, on BOTH sides. Large ribbon (and thick) eill automatically disappear. Furthermore, the board´s geometry can be slightly modified so it is made wider at the bottom left and right, while keeping it narrower at the top for optimal fitting on shield-cage.

 

About Slot-3, when you ask that question to any "hard-core" 800 user (those whose daily retro-driver is the 800 and permanently sits on their retro-desk), they will remind you that Slot-3 not just about the only ram-slot that has access to critical I/O address-range, but is also about HISTORY. This slot is where HW specifically designed for the 800's unique architecture remains in place, without the need of PBI, desoldering, de-gutting, etc. They will also tell you, on the other hand,  that the 800 is the Boss, the real king of the hill, where everything comes from (including PBI), and that EVERYTHING about it matters... a LOT! 

 

What about this one? Would you still need to crop it for BIOS-splash? Do you think VBXE will be able to display the sea's color gradation, properly? (focus on the sea, please !!)

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Faicuai

[candle]

i don't know if this a middle age crisis, or what?

one was a nice distraction, second one - another thread derailed?

 

i don't see any reason for working longer just to replace whole cpu board instead

if you're really inclined to do it - do it, if not personally, i'm sure you can hire someone to do that for you - schematics for vbxe are/were available, so go for it

 

adapter board took 2 days for the main part, antic breakout board remains to be designed

intrest in 800 video upgrade options just isn't there

[Faicuai]

Just now, candle said:

i don't know if this a middle age crisis, or what?

one was a nice distraction, second one - another thread derailed?

 

i don't see any reason for working longer just to replace whole cpu board instead

if you're really inclined to do it - do it, if not personally, i'm sure you can hire someone to do that for you - schematics for vbxe are/were available, so go for it

 

adapter board took 2 days for the main part, antic breakout board remains to be designed

intrest in 800 video upgrade options just isn't there

Done deal.

 

Integrate CPU + Sophia/II will be.

 

 

[candle]

great! keep us all informed!

 

[_The Doctor__]

Oh I get it, he wants to keep both at the same time, sort of like the dual monitor method xep 80 folks do.

why not just use a longer ribbon cable to go over top the bit3 then? or will vbxe and bit3 fight over a signal?

 

otherwise I don't see an issue pick vbxe OR pick bit3 correct?

 

sounds great to me.

 

I'm happy (elated) to see it all works and it appears the joystick ports as well.

 

I have no complaints with what I see, I'm surprised anybody would as this was the goal. I am not moving the goal posts!

 

Great job is all I have to say!

Thank you for all the hard and fast work!

Edited January 25, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[Gunstar]

3 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Done deal.

 

Integrate CPU + Sophia/II will be.

 

 

I already made this choice. I have a 1200XL for VBXE and I'd rather have my two Atari's have different abilities rather than being carbon copies from upgrade abilities standpoint. That way I get the best of both worlds so-to-speak. One with Incognito (4xOS and it's SIDE Loader CF and SDX), Pokeymax Quad + Covox, Sophia 2 and a Dual PIA (DIY) with extra I/O. The other with 32-in-1 OS, MyIDE II CF and SSDX cart w/RTC, Pokeymax + SID, internal Midi and VBXE and possibly Rapidus. Then I have reasons for using both and doing different things with both.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

3 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Oh I get it, he wants to keep both at the same time, sort of like the dual monitor method xep 80 folks do.

 

Is someone remaking Bit-3 cards? I could go for that...

Otherwise aren't Bit-3's ultra rare and hard to find? I don't see much sense in leaving slot 3 open if most people won't ever use it, except for something like a VBXE or Rapidus. It's too bad something can't be done with slots 1 and 2 as well, but there's no need for more memory with Incognito in slot 0. But I wouldn't mind adding a few extra wires going to the mobo or other cards if that can make the slots usable for something else. After all, I already had to do that with the Incognito and Pokeymax installs.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Gunstar

[spookt]

I’d love a simple way of getting VBXE into my 800. I am a daily 800 driver - it’s my main machine and I have absolutely no issues with a card in slot 3 to provide a simpler VBXE solution. 100% would buy.