Why More than 128K?

[pixelmischief]

Other than the Numen demo, is there any real reason to have more than 128K.  I admit to being only an intermediate participant in the Atari ecosystem, but I do flatter myself that I play just about everything that comes out on the platform.  Why so much RAM?  What can I do with 1MB that I can't do with 128K?

[_The Doctor__]

A handful of games developed on Atarimax Cartridges can only run on the bigger memory upgraded machines without using those cartridges...

[Mark2008]

 

 

[pixelmischief]

Let me refocus the question in another way.  What is the "killer app" for 256K, 320K, or 1MB?

[+Nezgar]

13 minutes ago, pixelmischief said:

Let me refocus the question in another way.  What is the "killer app" for 256K, 320K, or 1MB?

SpartaDOS X. ? With more than 128K you can free up the RAM under the OS by moving I/O buffers to an extended bank, use some banks for stuff like DOSKEY buffers, and still leave the "original" 130XE 64K untouched for software that uses those banks directly...

 

In the old days without hard drives and flash drives, 256K or more was nice for single pass disk copies of even a full double density disk, and ramdisks.

[pixelmischief]

4 minutes ago, Nezgar said:

SpartaDOS X...DOSKEY

Really?  That's the "killer app"?  What can I do with more RAM in SDX, other than unnecessarily big DOSKEY buffers and faster disk copies?

Edited January 31, 2021 by pixelmischief

[_The Doctor__]

The Last Word may use the extra memory ;

[Mark2008]

One of the games I’m writing could use 256k, but that doesn't mean I would ever need over 64k of updatable registers.

 

what Im trying to say is a game starts somewhere.  if its on cart,  then code and graphic data is banked in and out from rom, no need for extended ram. i will never need more than 64k of variable memory for my stuff

 

if starting from disk, not cart,  then loading up banks of ram is advantageous, for quick in game access of code and level data

 

the extra ram is faster than disk.  thats its purpose.

 

I had 256k back in the 80s and I used it for saving messages and it was much faster than the 1050.  i still backed up the message base to disk once a day.

 

these days I am fine with a 130xe for what I do.   

[pixelmischief]

1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said:

The Last Word may use the extra memory

C'mon guys.  Even if you told me that The Last Word REQUIRES the extra memory, I would still argue that a Word Processor on an 8-Bit system can not be considered a "killer app".  I'm looking for something that needs the memory and is an experience or capability that makes getting the memory an exciting proposition.

[+Stephen]

With SDX, the machine becomes like an early generation PC.  Hi-mem, relocatable device drivers.  Last Word can open 10 documents at once, or 10 different 16kB documents.  It's damn impressive working on a 160kB document on this machine.

[+Stephen]

1 minute ago, pixelmischief said:

C'mon guys.  Even if you told me that The Last Word REQUIRES the extra memory, I would still argue that a Word Processor on an 8-Bit system can not be considered a "killer app".  I'm looking for something that needs the memory and is an experience or capability that makes getting the memory an exciting proposition.

What are you looking for?  Porn movies?  Did you have one of these machines in the 80s?  Going from16kB machine to 128kB and then above was a major event.

[+Stephen]

48 minutes ago, pixelmischief said:

Other than the Numen demo, is there any real reason to have more than 128K.  I admit to being only an intermediate participant in the Atari ecosystem, but I do flatter myself that I play just about everything that comes out on the platform.  Why so much RAM?  What can I do with 1MB that I can't do with 128K?

If all you do is play games, then no.  There is nothing for you.  If you are an app coder, or use the machine as a content creator rather than a content consumer, then you wouldn't even ask this.  Go back to playing Combat on the 2600.  2kB is all you need.

[pixelmischief]

Just now, Stephen said:

What are you looking for?  Porn movies?

Ummm...confess much?

 

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

Did you have one of these machines in the 80s?

Yes.  I got my first 800XL and 1050 in 1984.  I have had an 8-bit Atari of one kind or another ever since then.

 

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Going frmo a 16kB machine to 128kB and then above was a major event.

OK.  Tell me why.  Tell me what was especially exciting about it.  Tell me what would be exciting about it today.

[pixelmischief]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

If you are an app coder, or use the machine as a content creator rather than a content consumer, then you wouldn't even ask this.

Please, enlighten us all about what excellent capabilities are activated by having the higher memory.

 

3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Go back to playing Combat on the 2600.  2kB is all you need.

This statement is as irrelevant as it is rude.  I'd apologize for having annoyed you, but I honestly don't give a damn.

 

That said, if you told me that I would be unable to play Ultima IV without 256K of RAM, or that it would have better graphics as a result, I would be sold.  If you said that Yoomp! needs 1MB, I would sell blood and semen to get a RAM upgrade.  That's the kind of high-value proposition I am asking about. 

[+Stephen]

2 minutes ago, pixelmischief said:

Ummm...confess much?

 

Yes.  I got my first 800XL and 1050 in 1984.  I have had an 8-bit Atari of one kind or another ever since then.

 

OK.  Tell me why.  Tell me what was especially exciting about it.  Tell me what would be exciting about it today.

Nothing would be exciting about it today.  If you want Intel core I-9 and GTX 3080 GTX level stuff, then perhaps you should leave a forum devoted to 1978 era hardware.

 

If you are not excited by the modern era stuff we can do such as:

VBXE2 for 80 column 640*240 pixel screens, or 320*240*256 colour out of a 21-bit palette, then I can't help you.

 

If you don't think it's amazing to do word processing on this machine with 80 column screen, 160kB single file, or 10 16kB documents, then again, leave.

 

We have a DOS that offers 16 32MB partitions, nearly 90kB/sec R/W speeds, full batch processing.

[+Stephen]

Just now, pixelmischief said:

Please, enlighten us all about what excellent capabilities are activated by having the higher memory.

 

This statement is as irrelevant as it is rude.  I'd apologize for having annoyed you, but I honestly don't give a damn.

 

That said, if you told me that I would be unable to play Ultima IV without 256K of RAM, or that it would have better graphics as a result, I would be sold.  If you said that Yoomp! needs 1MB, I would sell blood and semen to get a RAM upgrade.  That's the kind of high-value proposition I am asking about. 

Well, don't come in here and say that all we need is 16kB.  Don't come in and ask why do we need extra RAM and then get pissy when I give examples.

[+kheller2]

As a normal end user I would say there is nothing enticing about going over 128.  However, back in the day, ram disks, bbs, etc were so much better with that ram.  
 

please realize your question is no different than going from 48 to 64 to 128.  Ok, 64 is way better than 48 but ...

[pixelmischief]

Just now, Stephen said:

Well, don't come in here and say that all we need is 16kB.

I said no such thing.

 

Just now, Stephen said:

Don't come in and ask why do we need extra RAM and then get pissy when I give examples.

The only person who got "pissy" was you.  And no, you didn't give any examples that rise to the level of "killer app".

[+Stephen]

Just now, kheller2 said:

As a normal end user I would say there is nothing enticing about going over 128.  However, back in the day, ram disks, bbs, etc were so much better with that ram.  
 

please realize your question is no different than going from 48 to 64 to 128.  Ok, 64 is way better than 48 but ...

Why use a floppy drive or a hard drive when we have a great 600 baud cassette?

 

Better yet - let's phrase our question in 2021 to make it sound like anyone using this machine in 2021 is an idiot.  Why would I use a hard drive on the Atari that can give me 100kB/sec when I can use a PC and get 60MB/sec.

[pixelmischief]

I get the feeling that the collective defensiveness of the community makes my question seem more like an attack against the practical usefulness of the platform, rather than an honest question about some really cool, higher-memory use that I could enjoy.  Sorry to have bothered you.

[+Stephen]

Here's an idea.  Why don't all of us users, that have more than 16kB, CTIA, and cassette, tell all the people making new hardware and upgrades to fuck off and stop wasting their time.  We don't need upgrades, we don't like upgrades.  We'll keep pretending it's 1978, and stop trying to advance the platform.

[+kheller2]

3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Here's an idea.  Why don't all of us users, that have more than 16kB, CTIA, and cassette, tell all the people making new hardware and upgrades to fuck off and stop wasting their time.  We don't need upgrades, we don't like upgrades.  We'll keep pretending it's 1978, and stop trying to advance the platform.

Okay, this went off the rails quickly.  Advancing the platform is great!  That really wasn’t the basis of the question. Also, the apps mentioned don’t seem to be enticing enough for some people to go all out on RAM upgrades.  And that’s fine.  For me I don’t need more than 256, and 90% of the time 64 is plenty. Nothing magical happens when you hit 512, it’s just more of the same (but that doesn’t mean it’s bad or unwanted by people).   I think 1MB of ram is incredible, and for developers the more the merrier.  Seriously though, what productivity apps really require more than 128/256. Please don’t read that the wrong way.  I’m not saying we shouldn’t upgrade or that we should just stop all design.  That’s dumb. 

[_The Doctor__]

The Atari was designed to be upgraded in all ways, processor, memory, personality, sound, and had a dual floating bus(stopped after the 800) to support unknown tech into the future. Even the joystick ports were designed for Input and Output... There were all manner of memory cards and a few graphics/higher column cards. You name it, the machine did it, even running machinery, cnc machines, displays for reactors, weaving looms, telecoms, cable tv.... extra memory was at the heart of alot of it. I would never have run my BBS's without an upgrade and later on anything less than 320K was unbearable.

 

I considered SDX and The Last Word Killer apps at the time because I did more than video games. But I will say a number of demos and games do require the memory, weather on and external cartridge or inside the confines of the mother board... I love AtariBlast...for a start.

Edited January 31, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[+Nezgar]

26 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

As a normal end user I would say there is nothing enticing about going over 128.  However, back in the day, ram disks, bbs, etc were so much better with that ram.  

I shudder thinking of the days of copying files between disks with 1 floppy drive without a ramdisk... and I can't even remember how one would do that without a RAMdisk on SpartaDOS or SDX...

 

my 180K ramdisk on the 320XE was great for "collecting" a disks worth of files (games?) from various sources for a single copy back to disk in the end...

 

Disk swapping was the worst...

 

Except on a mac with 1 drive... disk swapping on old macs was worser.

[adam242]

AtariBlast! is a pretty good argument for extended memory.

 

Video.  As a fellow gamer, this is very convincing. This might be your 'killer app', pixelmischief.

Edited January 31, 2021 by adam242
typo